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Heresy 198 The Knight of the Laughing Tree


Black Crow

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It we return to the story of the Pact it may be significant that: "every tree on the island was given a face"

Its easy to assume that a face was carved, but was it? 

Not only do I agree that the faces correspond to the sacrifices that were given to consecrate a new heart tree, I believe that it may have been a part of the price that men paid to inherit the sorcery of the CotF--most notably, the face on the Winterfell heart tree evokes many of the same features that are said to be the generic "Stark features" that Eddard, Arya, and Jon share: long, solemn faces. I suspect that many of the leaders of the FM from the Pact era sacrificed from their own blood lines to consecrate their respective Godswoods, and bond themselves to the old gods.

It may also be notable that all of those new faces were 'created' on the Isle of Faces at the same time that the Order of the Green Men was formed--perhaps each Green Man corresponds to a heart tree/face.

We've disagreed about how to interpret this myth in the past, but I'd like to briefly bring it up again:
 

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The woods were on the move, creeping toward the castle like a slow green tide. She thought back to a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors.

I realize that the more obvious assumption to make here is that this passage is just referencing the wood dancers, but I find the inclusion of the greenseers interesting; IMO, this is a legend that is actually about the very first Green Men, before the formal order was created in the aftermath of the Pact.

Edit: In addition, given my own inclination to see white walkers and Green Men as interrelated, with the ultimate purpose of both being the defense of the weirwood groves, l really think there might be more to this myth than meets the eye. 

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23 hours ago, Matthew. said:

If Howland is unwilling/incapable of jousting to restore his own honor, and refuses to ask for intercession, would any of the Starks have been bothered enough by what happened that they'd feel compelled to humiliate the knights and their squires, regardless of Howland's wishes?

Well, it's possible.  Let's look at the options.

1. Brandon.  By far the most experienced/best qualified.  Also almost certainly too tall.

2. Ned. This is Snowfyre's pick because he probably got training while in the Vale, and if he represented Howland, maybe this helped create the extraordinary Ned/Howland friendship we've heard of.  (I think that's more about the end of the Rebellion.) And it's possible, though not at all certain, that he is short. 

3. Lyanna.  Beyond the points already made, I would expect Brandon and Ned to be big-brotherish and object to this on the grounds that Lyanna might get hurt or killed due to (as far as we know) lack of experience/training, and block it. 

So Lyanna have needed to do it without telling them.  That is, sneak away from them in order to (1) get the armor and horse at some point, plus of course (2) ride the first joust, and the second joust, and the third joust.  It seems hard to believe her absence all this time wasn't conspicuous. 

Also, though this point is virtually never made, we know the KotLT was short of stature, and we do not know Lyanna was short of stature.  We just sort of assume it because she was female and fourteen... but the world is full of tall female eighth-graders.

4.  Benjen.  Benjen's age is never given, but he appears to be, going by the weirwood vision, at least two years younger than Lyanna, and would also very likely never have had any training or experience, and I would expect this to go extremely poorly for him.  (See also: Barristan the Bold, who at ten got knocked on his ass when he tried it as a mystery knight.)

23 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I also wouldn't say that GRRM didn't lay the necessary foundation of foreshadowing, if he wanted to write Lyanna as a competent jouster.

The best evidence for this IMO is the fapp's remark that she tilted at rings.

But of course this is one of those completely noncanonical bits that make many of us raise our eyebrows, given that the fapp content, according to GRRM, was supposed to be a Who's Who of canonical info, and given that he only participated in the fapp grudgingly and over his lunch hour.

23 hours ago, Matthew. said:

is this a wholly unreliable template for the sort of impulsive act that might have gotten Lyanna into trouble?

Not at all.  But it's not clear to me Lyanna felt such a strong personal impulse... given the way the Starks didn't  make such an offer in the tale, and instead offered to help Howland do it himself.   As with so much about GRRM it's just ambiguous.

Arya is an interesting parallel in another sense.  I think Ned got her time with Syrio specifically because of the prior instance of Lyanna as someone who wanted training and never got it. 

Quote

"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

"She was," Eddard Stark agreed, "beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time." He lifted the sword, held it out between them. "Arya, what did you think to do with this … Needle? Who did you hope to skewer? Your sister? Septa Mordane? Do you know the first thing about sword fighting?"

So.  I suspect Ned doesn't want Arya to remain a wannabe who has no idea what she's doing with a blade (which was the case before Syrio).  He thinks she will be better off learning from a master. 

We might infer Lyanna also would have been better off, and wonder why Ned thinks that. 

We might also infer Arya is going to grow into a considerable beauty -- perhaps even one who is capable of casting down Cersei, and taking all she holds dear.

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21 hours ago, Darkstream said:

We in fact do know that Lyanna had the opportunity to practice away from her father. Brandon was fostered at Barrowhall and Lady Barbrey Dustin has said that she often seen Lyanna and Brandon ride off together into the Rills, and describes them as a "pair of centaurs". It's quite plausible that the reason they often rode off alone, and beyond the eyes of witness's, is that Brandon was secretly indulging his sister's desire to train in the martial arts.

Yes, I can see that happening.  I just don't think that whatever instruction she received at her age would make her skilled enough or give her an advantage over three grown men with far more practice and training.  They'd have to be pretty lame to lose to her.  It's a bit too much of a stretch for me.  I'm inclined to think they were hunting or that he was perhaps teaching her to use a sword.  Considering that she wasn't allowed to carry a sword but did anyway.   Ned makes that connection with Arya, not only lets her keep Needle but hires a sword master to train her against his misgivings and I wonder why he indulged her.  Why did Jon give her Needle in the first place?  I think it less likely that Lyanna was learning to joust, which would be pretty useless martial skill and more likely that she would want to learn how to use a sword.

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For the .003% of folks out there who have read/are interested in my Marvel Comics/ASOIAF correlations, I can verify that, during the time period in which GRRM was heavily invested, there is an alien race of telepathic plants  - trees, of course, with humanoid features like mobile limbs and heads that devolved over time to become basically faces in the trunk of the tree  - that play into very large arc of the past as well as a very large arc in current time.  

Over the centuries, with their numbers dwindling due to various threats, these alien tree people have been cared for/protected by a secret pacifist sect of the race that was (mostly) responsible for their dwindling numbers in the first place.    However, their continued existence reaching somewhat critical mass, the telepathic tree people  - with powers of telepathy that have grown in negative correlation with their reduced population, I might add  - have opted to take something of a last stand that requires cooperation with the Avengers.

This is a great arc that I've been working on forever, and was the one that solidified for me the idea that GRRM was lifting 1960s/1970s Marvel plots for use ASOIAF, so I'm excited to see others on board the "Sentient Tree Dudes" train.   Whomping Weirwoods, assemble!

 

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20 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

For the .003% of folks out there who have read/are interested in my Marvel Comics/ASOIAF correlations, I can verify that, during the time period in which GRRM was heavily invested, there is an alien race of telepathic plants  - trees, of course, with humanoid features like mobile limbs and heads that devolved over time to become basically faces in the trunk of the tree  - that play into very large arc of the past as well as a very large arc in current time.  

Over the centuries, with their numbers dwindling due to various threats, these alien tree people have been cared for/protected by a secret pacifist sect of the race that was (mostly) responsible for their dwindling numbers in the first place.    However, their continued existence reaching somewhat critical mass, the telepathic tree people  - with powers of telepathy that have grown in negative correlation with their reduced population, I might add  - have opted to take something of a last stand that requires cooperation with the Avengers.

This is a great arc that I've been working on forever, and was the one that solidified for me the idea that GRRM was lifting 1960s/1970s Marvel plots for use ASOIAF, so I'm excited to see others on board the "Sentient Tree Dudes" train.   Whomping Weirwoods, assemble!

 

I AM GROOT!

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Just now, PrettyPig said:

LOL!  Yeah, I knew most people would immediately think of dancing baby Groots, but...nope, different alien tree guy!

Sentient humanoid greenery, my brain went to SwampThing.  But large sentient tree-things are forever Ents to me.

(I have a degree in early medieval history, and a dial in my brain stuck at twelve year old geek.)

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2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

For the .003% of folks out there who have read/are interested in my Marvel Comics/ASOIAF correlations, I can verify that, during the time period in which GRRM was heavily invested, there is an alien race of telepathic plants  - trees, of course, with humanoid features like mobile limbs and heads that devolved over time to become basically faces in the trunk of the tree  - that play into very large arc of the past as well as a very large arc in current time.

You might find this interesting.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EldritchAbomination

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4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Perhaps these are all legends about the same figure, a King of Summer who would be sacrificed in the autumn, become a "King of the Barrows" during the winter, and be reborn in the spring--or perhaps it was two separate bloodlines who would have to occasionally give up a member of their line to serve as Kings of Summer and Winter respectively, and be sacrificed at their appointed times, until the era of the 13th LC/NK/(Last True King of Winter?) upended everything.

 

2 quick points.

1. The Night's King was not said to have been the thirteenth "lord commander." He is said to have been the "thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch."

That is a subtle distinction that probably matters little to most folks, but I think it is an important one. It might imply that there were no "lord commanders" prior to the Night's King. If Brandon the Builder was the Night's King, then this notion is supported by Maester Aemon's statement that the Night's Watch has been choosing its own commanders since the tenure of Bran the Builder.

(Aemon's statement implies that Brandon the Builder was not chosen by the Night's Watch as its leader... which is yet another echo of the tale of the Night's King.)

2. I'm surprised by your wording in the bold. We have no evidence of "Kings of Winter" prior to the emergence of the Night's King. So, rather than view him as the "last true" KoW, I think he created the idea of Winter's King in the first place. He was the Icy version of Aegon the Conqueror. He created the office.

And, like Aegon's successors, each of KoW occupied the title of the original, even if they were not the ones to build the throne/Nightfort.

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6 hours ago, JNR said:

3. Lyanna.  Beyond the points already made, I would expect Brandon and Ned to be big-brotherish and object to this on the grounds that Lyanna might get hurt or killed due to (as far as we know) lack of experience/training, and block it. 

Of those two, I would agree about Ned, but I'm less certain about Brandon. Darkstream brings up an interesting quote on the prior page. Maybe Brandon would have been protective, and prevented Lyanna from doing anything reckless, but maybe he had been training her behind their father's back, and was amused at the idea of her humiliating full knights.

Would recklessness outweigh protectiveness here, if Brandon is particularly confident in Lyanna? If nothing else, we should probably accept that she was a good rider, and if he'd personally given her any training, supreme confidence in himself might also translate into supreme confidence in the training he has (theoretically) provided. Keep in mind, this is the guy that went to the Red Keep with just a small handful of men, and demanded that the heir to the throne "come out and die;" whatever else Brandon was, he certainly wasn't wise.

None of this is to dismiss the points you're making, as Lyanna has many hurdles to overcome, but to be repetitive, some of these hurdles come down to personal incredulity--eg "do I believe this character would behave this way, do I believe someone of this age could do this, do I believe this character could get away with sneaking around..." and so forth; questions that rely not only what we personally find believable, but what we personally find believable about characters that we don't actually know.

There's also the additional problem that the author is not infallible--for example, when Jaime Lannister says that jousting mostly comes down to riding skills, there is some cynical part of my brain that notes that this line isn't coming from a real authority figure on jousting, but instead is a piece of dialogue crafted by a man that has never jousted in his life...one would assume. Thus, should I read it as a bit of purposely crafted foreshadowing? Will the author occasionally strain credulity in service of the story he wants to tell? 

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2 hours ago, Voice said:

1. The Night's King was not said to have been the thirteenth "lord commander." He is said to have been the "thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch."

That is a subtle distinction that probably matters little to most folks, but I think it is an important one. It might imply that there were no "lord commanders" prior to the Night's King. I

I don't disagree, but I type "13th LC" out of simplicity and habit. Indeed, I actually believe that there were no LCs before the NK, although I suspect there may have been prior Night Kings (Kings of the Nightfort).
 

2 hours ago, Voice said:

2. I'm surprised by your wording in the bold. We have no evidence of "Kings of Winter" prior to the emergence of the Night's King.

This is not entirely accurate. If Brandon the Builder was a "King of Winter" (the text is a little unclear about this), the standard chronology would suggest that the first KoW was several generations prior to the NK, though I understand that your alternative theory is that BtB and the NK are one and the same.

Furthermore, there are several Kings of Winter whose place in the chronology is indeterminate--we have no idea what order the various Kings of Winter served in relative to one another, or relative to the Night's King. 
 

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On 5/10/2017 at 3:20 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

This was an interesting tidbit to me to.Not even the Reed kids know.

Me to i was sure he was a Ninja...lol. But 'weaving words' in addition to some of the things Howland is credited with does seem to indicate 'glamouring.'

I think Ned is a candidate as well seeing as:

1.He could have heard Howland's prayer as Howland was bunking with him in his tent.

2.He has the skill 

But as to the sigil itself i believe you are correct.It didn't have to go that far when a plain shield would do.So i wonder if the knight was going to appear no matter what.I mean to be honest to use a Weirwood there's only a few people who were going to be blamed.Anyone who held the Old gods.Be that true or not.Someone could have just been trying to raise suspicion. 

 

As to your last paragraph... yeah. And that is one reason why I think Jaime is a candidate for the mystery knight. Who would think a Lion would sport a laughing tree on his shield other than Aerys? When leaving Harrenhal Jamie  describes his departure...

"Lord Bolton had accoutred him as a knight [...] He was not such a fool as to show the lion of Lannister on his arms, though, nor the plain white blazon that was his right as a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. He found an old shield in the armory, battered and splintered, the chipped paint still showing most of the great black bat of House Lothston upon a field of silver and gold. [...] He would be no one’s cousin, no one’s enemy, no one’s sworn sword … in sum, no one.

A mystery knight with a borrowed shield which is later painted over with a tree.  Not a weirwood, but still.

Then further on in the chapter, he reminiscences on the Tourney and even thinks about leaving Harrenhal to hear an old Miller tell him he is heading the wrong way for the big tournament. And just after he sleeps with his headed rested against a weirwood stump. 

 

I know there are some problems with Jamie as the KotLT, like motivation to take call out the three squires behaviour against Howland, but I don't find it that big of a stretch. Jamie was a new and honorable knight. 

While Ned is a or the top contender for the man behind the mask in the 'Mystery Knight Theater', I find Jamit as a close runner-up. Not to mention Benjen and Howland.

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On 5/13/2017 at 1:56 PM, PrettyPig said:

As an aside, I think this might be one of GRRM's subtle hints to a reality that sharply diverges from the popular tale.   Arya is one of several characters in the story who references the concept of the 'white knight', the chivalrous hero that stands up for the good of all, defends women, protects the smallfolk, etc.  Bran and Sansa subscribe to this philosophy also - and of course all three of these Stark kids have had that illusion shattered in some form or another in current story thanks to actions by white knights of the Kingsguard.     

I find it telling that this comes up in the KotLT tale as well:

Interesting that Meera states this in the midst of this story of a mystery champion performing noble deed.      That being said, I believe this was interjected here for a reason - we see the dawning of this realization with the characters in the current story, but I think GRRM is directing us to look for it in the past as well.   We follow the echoes to get to the truth...and the truth is not going to be so nice, or so white, "like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths."

I like this, and it fits nicely (to me) with Jamie Lannister. 

Also, I like what Matthew. has to say on an outsider to the Stark crew bringing the pain and humiliation to the three squires and their knights for the sake of justice. 

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9 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

For the .003% of folks out there who have read/are interested in my Marvel Comics/ASOIAF correlations

Probably more of us than you think.  It's just an irrefutable fact that GRRM has Kirby and Lee baked into his storytelling imagination at a deep level; there are Marvel parallels to be found in the stories that not even you have found yet, IMO.

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4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

some of these hurdles come down to personal incredulity--eg "do I believe this character would behave this way, do I believe someone of this age could do this, do I believe this character could get away with sneaking around..." and so forth

Some do, but this particular bit is just a question of canonical info, to me. 

Brandon simply was the best lance in House Stark, and it wasn't close.  So if a Stark were going to stand in for Howland, Brandon would have been better suited than Lyanna by a wide margin. 

The only reason people don't think of it in that way is that we know, having been told the complete tale, that the KotLT was short... but at that time, when Howland was craving vengeance, before the KotLT even existed, Brandon would have been the standout candidate.  So I doubt he would have backed the idea of Lyanna even if he had been training her (which is purely hypothetical).

Ergo, if we imagine it was in fact Lyanna anyway, that also suggests to me logically that Brandon did not know.  Lyanna did it behind everyone's back and escaped detection.

Pursuing similar logic, we can be certain that Howland knows whether he was the knight or not. 

So we can ask ourselves why Howland has told his children this story so many times (which we know he has, because Meera just rattles it all off easily, down to tiny details like the knight of skulls and kisses).

If Howland was the knight, it's quite easy to answer that question. It's a tale that makes him look good, and it's also a tale that reminds his children of an important truth: the world may scoff at crannogmen, even abuse them, but they are still strong, and they can still prevail.  That seems to be what Meera's taken away from it (and it fits her action-centric nature that she would guess her father was the knight and learn that lesson).

But if Howland was not the knight, and his kids realize that, this is a remarkably unflattering story to him.  Whipped by squires, he craved vengeance, and when his "heart was torn," it turned out... that he didn't have the courage to get it.  Too bad.  Someone else had to do it.  This seems to be what Jojen's taken away from it (and it fits his doleful, passive nature, which seems to derive from his greendreams, which have taught him to believe in an unstoppable fate against which there's no point in struggling).

I think Howland told them the tale with the first scenario in mind, but I certainly can't prove it.

Finally, there is that interesting reference about his heart being torn.  If he were just a typical crannogman... zero training or experience in the joust, and no magical skills that might apply... surely there would have been no doubt about the outcome in his mind.  He would have been steered by this definite knowledge: Three trained knights would maul him, one right after the other.

But his heart was torn.  Meaning: Howland obviously thought he had a shot.  Why?

We know he could ride a horse (because he rode with Ned to the ToJ).  He may well have had another hidden advantage.  It couldn't have been one that would guarantee victory, but was it, perhaps, enough?  Roughly as Loras's mare in heat was enough to spook the Mountain's horse?  Perhaps...

Quote

And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?

 

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12 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

For the .003% of folks out there who have read/are interested in my Marvel Comics/ASOIAF correlations, I can verify that, during the time period in which GRRM was heavily invested, there is an alien race of telepathic plants  - trees, of course, with humanoid features like mobile limbs and heads that devolved over time to become basically faces in the trunk of the tree  - that play into very large arc of the past as well as a very large arc in current time.  

Over the centuries, with their numbers dwindling due to various threats, these alien tree people have been cared for/protected by a secret pacifist sect of the race that was (mostly) responsible for their dwindling numbers in the first place.    However, their continued existence reaching somewhat critical mass, the telepathic tree people  - with powers of telepathy that have grown in negative correlation with their reduced population, I might add  - have opted to take something of a last stand that requires cooperation with the Avengers.

This is a great arc that I've been working on forever, and was the one that solidified for me the idea that GRRM was lifting 1960s/1970s Marvel plots for use ASOIAF, so I'm excited to see others on board the "Sentient Tree Dudes" train.   Whomping Weirwoods, assemble!

 

 

11 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

Sentient humanoid greenery, my brain went to SwampThing.  But large sentient tree-things are forever Ents to me.

(I have a degree in early medieval history, and a dial in my brain stuck at twelve year old geek.)

Of course. Now I know why the idea of the Iron Born's Kingsmoot niggled at me so.

Anyway.

 

Sentient tree dudes.

I'm all for it, as long as we keep those crazy willows out of the picture.

Or we have Tom Bombadil to keep them in line.

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11 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

LOL!  Yeah, I knew most people would immediately think of dancing baby Groots, but...nope, different alien tree guy!

I thought de Groot was the sailing master of the Walrus :dunno:

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10 hours ago, JNR said:

Brandon simply was the best lance in House Stark, and it wasn't close.  So if a Stark were going to stand in for Howland, Brandon would have been better suited than Lyanna by a wide margin. 

This still goes back to the question of motive, and personality--Brandon may have been the best jouster, but were they approaching this in a coldly analytical way, or was Brandon amused by the idea of the sister he'd (theoretically) trained beating full knights? Alternately, did he consider the task beneath his skills? Was he concerned about any impact it might have on his performance later in the tournament?

Furthermore, if she was doing this without her brothers' aide, would her absence, as you earlier suggested, actually be conspicuous? Another thing we can't fully know, because we don't know if her brothers were possessive, or just accepted a degree of wildness and independence on her part.

There's also the additional context that this all taking place at a massive tournament where many of House Stark's vassal houses (within which Lyanna might theoretically have any number of friends) would also be gathered, where Lyanna's betrothed and his vassal houses have gathered; thus, between all of that, and the distractions that the tournament itself has to offer, would her brothers find her absence notable? Does she have friends present who can provide her with a reasonable cover story, should such a thing even be necessary? 
 

10 hours ago, JNR said:

We know he could ride a horse (because he rode with Ned to the ToJ).  He may well have had another hidden advantage.  It couldn't have been one that would guarantee victory, but was it, perhaps, enough?  Roughly as Loras's mare in heat was enough to spook the Mountain's horse?  Perhaps...

Ah, well, we don't really disagree here, as it is not my intent to take the total opposite side of a "Howland vs. Lyanna" argument, it's more that I'm playing devil's advocate and explaining why myself and others may not necessarily share your point of view on the aspects of "Lyanna as KoLT" that you consider marks against the theory.

Many of the points you have raised don't strike me as unbelievable (the KoLT taking initiative without Howland's input, Lyanna training in secret, Lyanna sneaking around Harrenhal), and those elements that are most incredible are things I've come to expect from the fantasy genre--"it's not a bug, it's a feature."

It may be that the gulf in perception here is, in part, one of how we perceive the author, the work at hand, and what he might intend to achieve; you have made a very reasonable, analytical case for why "Lyanna as KoLT" would be an incredible scenario in the real world, but is that the best standard to judge what might happen in a fantasy novel? Maybe, maybe not.

I earlier evoked the idea of the author's fallibility, but I regret framing it that way, as it implies that the extraordinary nature of Lyanna being a mystery knight would be a mistake on the author's part--when really, it's just in keeping with the storytelling traditions that have inspired the fantasy genre in the first place. 

Has Martin set out to write an incredibly realistic world whose fantasy elements are strictly limited to the supernatural and fictional - magic, gods, fake races -, or does the 'fantastical' extend to character deeds, theme, plot points, and even dialogue? It's the difference between reading ASOIAF as a fake historical document about a place called Westeros, vs. reading it as a fairy tale--I read it as the latter. 

Edit: Of course, almost all of this is part of why I also find Howland to be a compelling candidate for the KoLT--the story itself is presented with flourishes of a fable (eg. "There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him, and the pup who was youngest of the four.") This invites the reader to infer this is a story about how one shouldn't underestimate a crannogman, or about the justice of the old gods, or what have you.
____

If you disagree, try applying the same standard of criticism you have applied to "Lyanna as KoLT" to ASOIAF as a whole, and see how many canonical plot points suddenly appear to be very silly. "You expect me to believe that a seventh grade boy is fighting full grown knights on the battlefield, and was undefeated in his military campaigns against Twyin Lannister? You expect me to believe that a bunch of veterans agreed that an eighth grade boy should lead the NW during its most dire moment--after only a year as a sworn brother? You expect me to believe that a seventh grade girl conquered Slaver's Bay?"

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I sorta lost track with this thread and where I read up to, so pardons if I am about to repeat someone else. Just found out that I am repeating @PrettyPig ^_^ Also, I may end up making a few statements that will put me at risk of losing the love of some posters here. Sorry in advance because that is not my intention.

Ok, now that the sobs are out of the way...

A recurring theme the author seems to setting into place for Jon's arc is that two different things come together to create something stronger, more resistant, or better somehow. I think one of the first and strongest lessons Jon (and we readers) learn of this is when Ygritte says this:

  • "He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

With all of the strong speculation that many fans have claiming Lyanna was a skinchanger of some sort, is it possible that Lyanna was skinchanging the horse that Howland rode? This would be two different (weaker) things coming together to create something stronger. And with all of the horse language used with Lyanna and her riding abilities and centaurs and half a horse adjectives, all of the "she" and "her" female grey mare descriptions, these could very well be hints to her possible ability of being a skinchanger. And Jon is not without his horsey symbolism as well, including, but not limited to, this:

  • Val, was Jon's first thought. But that was no woman's scream. That is a man in mortal agony. He[Jon] broke into a run. Horse and Rory raced after him. "Is it wights?"
  • Jousting was three-quarters horsemanship, Jaime had always believed.
  • (maybe hints): Down beside the river, he [Jamie] watched two washerwomen jousting in the shallows, mounted on the shoulders of a pair of men-at-arms. The girls were half-drunk and half-naked, laughing and snapping rolled-up cloaks at one another as a dozen other men urged them on. Jaime bet a copper star on the blond girl riding Raff the Sweetling, and lost it when the two of them went down splashing amongst the reeds.

I am of the mind that there would have been more skinchangers and wargs in the north the last few hundred years if the combined efforts of not-so-good Queen Alysanne and the maesters did not work to cut off the northern magics and culture as they did, both from inside the homes and outside. I think that having a supranormal/spirit avatar animal is necessary to unlock the talent. You may still need help controlling it, as Varamyr describes, and possibly as Val means when she jokes about "gelding" Jon <<<< by the way, gelding is what you do to a "wild" horse to help it gain control of itself.

This could be a possible reason as to why Rhaegar chose Lyanna. Any "un-masking" he does could just be a euphamism of him discovering her talent. Plus, this would mean that Howland did joust against the others himself, which keeps his side of the story as "truth" to his warrior-type daughter, as well as his own personal dignity.

As far as the weirwood sigil on the shield, well I hate to do this again, but we also see this with Jon and Val. I noticed this a while ago before I started my "Nymeria" thread and added this there:

  • Jon thinks to himself, "Like so much else, heraldry ended at the Wall,' but then he finds Val with the weirwood face brooch , she is in all white and Val's cheeks are flushed red. Jon Snow knows nothing! The ONLY other time we see a weirwood face being used as heraldry is with the Knight of the Laughing Tree where the shield is described as, "blazoned with the image of "a white weirwood with a laughing red face."
  • ADWD?Jon XI: "Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.
    They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.
    "Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he [Jon] asked her [Val]. (this line could possibly reflect what I was saying with the idea that Rhaegar discovered Lyanna's talent)
    "Why not? If every woman had a direwolf, men would be much sweeter. Even crows."
    "Har!" laughed Tormund Giantsbane. "Don't bandy words with this one, Lord Snow, she's too clever for the likes o' you and me. Best steal her quick, before Toregg wakes up and takes her first."
  • Forgot to add: If anyone here follows the theme of Norse mythology, then Val is a symbol of a spearwife, or even shield maiden, that George has added to this story. And Jon is a "shield that guards the realms of men" type of man. So we have those shield connections as well.
So, those are just some of my thoughts on this. You can throw cabbage and tomatoes, but please no eggs, they hurt!
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On 5/11/2017 at 5:13 PM, PrettyPig said:

YES.    I have been speaking to the air for years that Howland didn't accompany his kids to Winterfell and hasn't made an appearance in any Wot5K battles because he CAN'T do these things.   

Somehow, some way, he is unable to leave the Neck:   he is either physically restrained (think Bloodraven in the tree) or he has a guardianship over something very important.  (Or both).  

If he did indeed get some kind of turbo-boost from the Old Gods w/r/t the KotLT (in whatever role he played), it makes me wonder if there was a 'price' to be paid for their intervention...and he's sitting in the Neck paying for it, bound in servitude.

This would be awesome!!! It would be crazy that the reason he hasn't shown up because he literally can't leave.

On 5/11/2017 at 7:35 PM, JNR said:

We can speculate that they've been arguing about it for years (also just like us).

I think it's also worth considering what it means if Howland was not the knight, and Lyanna was, and neither was skinchanging the other. 

It means that this is the sequence:

1. Howland is humiliated by squires, is rescued by eighth-grade girl

2. Howland burns for vengeance but isn't sure what to do

3. Howland decides he doesn't have adequate balls to stick up for himself

4. Instead, he authorizes the eighth-grade girl to represent him, meaning she will risk being maimed or killed, as sometimes happens in a joust and did happen, in AGOT, to Ser Hugh of the Vale.

5. He does this even though he knows she has never in her life jousted against anyone, and will be going up against three knights in a row.  Why her, instead of say, Brandon, the best lance in House Stark?  ...because, well, she is considered quite a skilled rider.

6. The eighth-grade girl miraculously beats the three knights and in contradiction of the actual tale, is found and unmasked by Rhaegar, who then strikes up a sexual and romantic relationship with her and awards her queen of love and beauty to recognize her outstanding courage and nobility and horsemanship.

7. Howland... despite knowing this story reveals him to be completely free of any sort of balls... repeatedly tells his children the story so often they memorize it, thus mastering the concept that their father has no balls, and thus had to rely on an eighth-grade girl, twice, to save him, even though he was a grown man.

I have some trouble with the fact that all this is the default notion over in General... to the point where it's seen as a bedrock certainty.  :D

If i was Howland i certainly wouldn't be telling this story...Either way it comes down to him allowing others to fight his battles for him if it wasn't him.

However,maybe someone did and he felt he needed to redeem himself by accompanying Ned the toj.

Or as you said maybe the point of Howland's story was a teaching point for his kids.Maybe the point of it was so each listener could be the judge.

On 5/13/2017 at 1:13 PM, Darkstream said:

We in fact do know that Lyanna had the opportunity to practice away from her father. Brandon was fostered at Barrowhall and Lady Barbrey Dustin has said that she often seen Lyanna and Brandon ride off together into the Rills, and describes them as a "pair of centaurs". It's quite plausible that the reason they often rode off alone, and beyond the eyes of witness's, is that Brandon was secretly indulging his sister's desire to train in the martial arts.

Same question like below.Was it sufficient enough to make her good enough to do this?

On 5/14/2017 at 0:52 AM, Lord Wraith said:

I apologize if someone has brought this up but does anyone else think that Oberyn's daughter Elia aka Lady Lance is a subtle nod to Lyanna being the KofLT?

Is it a subtle nod,or is it that the belief that Lyanna is tkotlt already that makes us believe it is a nod.Right or wrong the social conditions for Elia are different.

Who was training Lyanna in secret; to the point where she got good enough to beat 3 dudes who could  train openly for hours on end day after day?

18 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I don't disagree, but I type "13th LC" out of simplicity and habit. Indeed, I actually believe that there were no LCs before the NK, although I suspect there may have been prior Night Kings (Kings of the Nightfort).
 

This is not entirely accurate. If Brandon the Builder was a "King of Winter" (the text is a little unclear about this), the standard chronology would suggest that the first KoW was several generations prior to the NK, though I understand that your alternative theory is that BtB and the NK are one and the same.

Furthermore, there are several Kings of Winter whose place in the chronology is indeterminate--we have no idea what order the various Kings of Winter served in relative to one another, or relative to the Night's King. 
 

I think the Summer king and Winter king positions are reocurring,but they haven't been corrupted.

I long believed that the two versions of this myth is being utilized to tell one story.

In one version one person with the face of summer and winter

Second version two brothers;one the winter king,the other summer king.

Ever since the prologue in Dance and seeing what Bran does with Hodor i have come to believe BtB is the Summer king and he is still kicking it in the weirwoods.When the physical body is close to death, he with the help of the little tree huggers draw another person to the grove....Tree dreams draw them..seed paste binds them to the trees and through some sweet retraining of their worldview it makes it easy for him to take their body when the time comes.

To quote Osha "winter has no king" it needs one ,but i think as in the first version of the Oak and Holly king myth.We have a two faced king playing both roles....Until we have a true winter king to take his place opposite the wheel.IMO this will be Jon.

15 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

As to your last paragraph... yeah. And that is one reason why I think Jaime is a candidate for the mystery knight. Who would think a Lion would sport a laughing tree on his shield other than Aerys? When leaving Harrenhal Jamie  describes his departure...

"Lord Bolton had accoutred him as a knight [...] He was not such a fool as to show the lion of Lannister on his arms, though, nor the plain white blazon that was his right as a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. He found an old shield in the armory, battered and splintered, the chipped paint still showing most of the great black bat of House Lothston upon a field of silver and gold. [...] He would be no one’s cousin, no one’s enemy, no one’s sworn sword … in sum, no one.

A mystery knight with a borrowed shield which is later painted over with a tree.  Not a weirwood, but still.

Then further on in the chapter, he reminiscences on the Tourney and even thinks about leaving Harrenhal to hear an old Miller tell him he is heading the wrong way for the big tournament. And just after he sleeps with his headed rested against a weirwood stump. 

 

I know there are some problems with Jamie as the KotLT, like motivation to take call out the three squires behaviour against Howland, but I don't find it that big of a stretch. Jamie was a new and honorable knight. 

While Ned is a or the top contender for the man behind the mask in the 'Mystery Knight Theater', I find Jamit as a close runner-up. Not to mention Benjen and Howland.

Hmmmm,i have never once considered Jamie to be a contender.It's an interesting notion.You did point out a con that is problematic.How would he have known about the incident with Howland ;unless these idiots were shameful enough to boast about it.That i doubt.

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