Heresy 198 The Knight of the Laughing Tree

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You may still need help controlling it, as Varamyr describes, and possibly as Val means when she jokes about "gelding" Jon <<<< by the way, gelding is what you do to a "wild" horse to help it gain control of itself.

Nice catch!

[JNR]

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

This still goes back to the question of motive, and personality--Brandon may have been the best jouster, but were they approaching this in a coldly analytical way, or was Brandon amused by the idea of the sister he'd (theoretically) trained beating full knights?

I don't think it was coldly analytical... but he really couldn't have known that she would perform so well. 

Even if we speculate (with no canonical support) that he personally had trained her in jousting, she still had no experience jousting in such a stressful situation -- against non-family members, who wouldn't treat her with kid gloves for any reason... in a real tournament... in front of a huge crowd. 

Additionally, I don't think it's much of a stretch to guess that Brandon was deeply protective of Lyanna:

Quote

He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die.

Finally, there's no doubt that he was the best jouster in House Stark because GRRM said so:

Quote

Brandon was the best of the Starks with sword in hand, and the best jouster as well.

So given all this, I think it would have been the most obvious thing in the world for him to stand in for Howland, if a stand-in was going to emerge from among the Starks. 

Which isn't to say Lyanna didn't do it, but only that if she did, I don't think it was with Brandon's knowledge or approval. 

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

you have made a very reasonable, analytical case for why "Lyanna as KoLT" would be an incredible scenario in the real world, but is that the best standard to judge what might happen in a fantasy novel? Maybe, maybe not.

That's true, but it's not just a fantasy novel.  It's a GRRM fantasy novel.

If it were Neil Gaiman, I wouldn't be making this case.  Gaiman is preposterously bad at what I would call logical continuity and usually doesn't even try.   Epistemological concerns like who knew what, when, and how well that maps to events in the world at that time, blah blah blah... he doesn't seem to care about. Someone can think about snow, and that just makes it snow.  No prior snow-making magic powers are required to have been demonstrated or hinted for this character.

GRRM is quite another matter -- a writer who says he sometimes goes half mad trying to keep track of all these tiny details of consistency, even over things like eye color... a writer who apparently makes frequent calls to Ran as a known trivia master, to confirm/deny such irrelevancies.  And by and large I think GRRM does an extraordinarily good job, with only a few areas that continue to make zero sense no matter how  we slice them (the waterproof nature of the Winterfell crypts for instance).

This also relates to his known interest in playing fair with his mysteries.  IMO all the major mysteries in his series (Jon's parents, the origin of the Others, the seasons, and various things most readers don't even realize are mysteries yet) are well conceived, set up, good clues dropped, etc., so as to reward analysis instead of frustrating it. 

When GRRM complained that the series finale of Lost was like "a bag of turds dropped on my doorstep," it's because he holds himself to a far higher standard.  He had suspected all along that the good people at Lost had no adequate way of pulling their story together, no secret explanation that would ever satisfy, just as I had suspected... and we were right.

The KotLT is, I admit, not a major mystery. It's the sort of thing I think GRRM might never explain -- leaving as a deliberate mystery for his fans to ponder, as Tolkien left Tom Bombadil's origin and capabilities. 

If so, that strategy's working, because here we are, all pondering it. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

The KotLT is, I admit, not a major mystery. It's the sort of thing I think GRRM might never explain -- leaving as a deliberate mystery for his fans to ponder, as Tolkien left Tom Bombadil's origin and capabilities. 

I agreed with your post above, save this last bit above ^^^.

The KotLT is actually of more importance than most readers would think. It's the longest in-universe record of an historical event, told in great detail, and caused a return to winter. I suspect that it is the reason why we see time loops of repeated events. I think it will turn out to be the most important event in the series.

[PrettyPig]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This could be a possible reason as to why Rhaegar chose Lyanna. Any "un-masking" he does could just be a euphamism of him discovering her talent. Plus, this would mean that Howland did joust against the others himself, which keeps his side of the story as "truth" to his warrior-type daughter, as well as his own personal dignity.

YES.  Yes yes yes.     This is where I was going in my post about Lyanna skinchanging Howland's horse (top of page 3) - Howland IS the mystery knight...with a little bit of help.     Or perhaps more than a little...which may be why Jojen gives the skeptical "or not"  as his disclaimer to Bran.   Meera clearly believes that this deed was primarily her dad - but Jojen obviously has the raised eyebrow 'ORLY' going on because he understands exactly how much of a contribution a skinchanged horse would have made...and he also must know that Ned was aware of it too, hence the repeated incredulity that Bran hadn't heard this tale from his father.

 

And I am absolutely on board with Rhaegar busting Lyanna for her skinchanging - for instance, if he happened upon her during her 'state' and put two and two together.   In that instance, I could imagine that Rhaegar might also be most interested in Lyanna, not for 3rd head prophecy or her wild beauty or her impetuousness or her father's loyalty in a coup, but because she has some really super-special blood that might be of use in some wild-assed Valyrian way, like, say, bonding with a dragon.   R+L = J is not at the top of my Greatest Hits list, but I could be more likely to buy it should it come to pass that Rhaegar needed a literal brood mare for a dragon hatching scheme.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

YES.  Yes yes yes.     This is where I was going in my post about Lyanna skinchanging Howland's horse (top of page 3) - Howland IS the mystery knight...with a little bit of help.     Or perhaps more than a little...which may be why Jojen gives the skeptical "or not"  as his disclaimer to Bran.   Meera clearly believes that this deed was primarily her dad - but Jojen obviously has the raised eyebrow 'ORLY' going on because he understands exactly how much of a contribution a skinchanged horse would have made...and he also must know that Ned was aware of it too, hence the repeated incredulity that Bran hadn't heard this tale from his father.

 

And I am absolutely on board with Rhaegar busting Lyanna for her skinchanging - for instance, if he happened upon her during her 'state' and put two and two together.   In that instance, I could imagine that Rhaegar might also be most interested in Lyanna, not for 3rd head prophecy or her wild beauty or her impetuousness or her father's loyalty in a coup, but because she has some really super-special blood that might be of use in some wild-assed Valyrian way, like, say, bonding with a dragon.   R+L = J is not at the top of my Greatest Hits list, but I could be more likely to buy it should it come to pass that Rhaegar needed a literal brood mare for a dragon hatching scheme.

 

Your theory about Howland being the knight and Lyanna skinchanging the horse is growing on me. The old gods could have given strength to Howland's arm. Haven't we heard that turn of phrase before? As for Rhaegar finding Lyanna...I do find that plausible since he went in search of the Knight. And giving her the laurel would be his way to acknowledge her part, but I'm still not on board with Rhaegar being Jon's father. (RLJ fans, please don't throw rotted vegetables my way) 

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

GRRM is quite another matter -- a writer who says he sometimes goes half mad trying to keep track of all these tiny details of consistency, even over things like eye color... a writer who apparently makes frequent calls to Ran as a known trivia master, to confirm/deny such irrelevancies.  And by and large I think GRRM does an extraordinarily good job, with only a few areas that continue to make zero sense no matter how  we slice them (the waterproof nature of the Winterfell crypts for instance).

I agree, by and large he is a stickler for the details, but I don't think he's flawless, and I do think there's an occasional expectation on his part that the reader will "take the journey" with him and suspend disbelief--or, in some cases, provide their own explanations for nagging questions.

For example, we can look at the premise of Lyanna sneaking around as a mystery knight, and rightfully question how she'd get away with this in a society where an important woman cannot easily be independent and inconspicuous--a valid question, but then, haven't we seen something similarly convenient happen with Cersei in service of a plot point? 

At the age of ten, the daughter of an incredibly important noble house - presumably, a house that would have many servants and guards whose sole duty is to see to her well being - managed to sneak away for a prolonged period to see Maggy the Frog, and had enough extra alone time to murder her friend (who was, herself, the daughter of a noble House) without getting caught. For me, this slightly strains credulity, but I don't feel that the author needs to actually explain this to me--which, I'm sure, GRRM was banking on.

That said, I do think GRRM has a little more explaining to do if he were to make Lyanna the KoLT, as I don't find her to be an intuitive candidate in the way that Howland Reed or "Nameless Green Man Champion" are candidates one might easily arrive at upon hearing Meera's tale, with no further elaboration necessary; with the information we have at present, Martin couldn't just reveal that Lyanna was the KoLT without a great deal of clunky, inelegant exposition.

 

3 hours ago, JNR said:

The KotLT is, I admit, not a major mystery. It's the sort of thing I think GRRM might never explain -- leaving as a deliberate mystery for his fans to ponder, as Tolkien left Tom Bombadil's origin and capabilities. 

If so, that strategy's working, because here we are, all pondering it. 

Agreed. In particular, if RL=J or HL=J aren't true, then I think it would be more effective if he doesn't reveal the KoLT's identity--it puts us in the same boat as Meera and Jojen.

[Matthew.]

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ever since the prologue in Dance and seeing what Bran does with Hodor i have come to believe BtB is the Summer king and he is still kicking it in the weirwoods.When the physical body is close to death, he with the help of the little tree huggers draw another person to the grove....Tree dreams draw them..seed paste binds them to the trees and through some sweet retraining of their worldview it makes it easy for him to take their body when the time comes.

I've been pondering a similar interpretation for the 3EC--that it's a skinchanger/greenseer that has extended its second life by hopping host bodies. Varamyr suggests he would have had to live out a mundane life if he'd succeeded in stealing Thistle's body, but what happens if a skinchanger steals the body of another skinchanger? Will the new body have the gift?

To get more crackpot, perhaps the 3EC isn't just looking for a younger, healthier host, but perhaps it intends for that host to carry it south of the Wall, either to Winterfell or to the Isle of Faces.

[wolfmaid7]

20 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I've been pondering a similar interpretation for the 3EC--that it's a skinchanger/greenseer that has extended its second life by hopping host bodies. Varamyr suggests he would have had to live out a mundane life if he'd succeeded in stealing Thistle's body, but what happens if a skinchanger steals the body of another skinchanger? Will the new body have the gift?

To get more crackpot, perhaps the 3EC isn't just looking for a younger, healthier host, but perhaps it intends for that host to carry it south of the Wall, either to Winterfell or to the Isle of Faces.

Yep,if we think about they don't have to fade when death comes a knocking ,all they have to do is find a way to ensure that subsequent bodies are skinchangers so they don't lose the gift.As i put it many threads ago who would know.....Thistle was really V6,Hodor was really Bran and the dead man in the tree was really BTB.

Hell i'd do it.Nearly,if not all these supernatural factions have one thing in common....

'Oh death where is your sting our resurrected king rendered you defeated.'

3ec did cross my mind  as another Skinchanger of that caliber (greenseer level) who has been trying to snag a Stark.

Ooooo Matthew the going south part opens up a lot of possible shenanigans.Me likey that train of thought.

[JNR]

I wonder how GRRM would do as president.  I mean, from a national security standpoint, this guy has effortlessly kept a tight lid on all of his highly classified information, for 20+ years...

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

but I don't think he's flawless, and I do think there's an occasional expectation on his part that the reader will "take the journey" with him and suspend disbelief

See also: the seafaring Andals somehow being blocked from invading the North, by Moat Cailin, for about six thousand years.

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

we can look at the premise of Lyanna sneaking around as a mystery knight, and rightfully question how she'd get away with this in a society where an important woman cannot easily be independent and inconspicuous

This is actually not as big a deal to me as the doubtful odds Lyanna had the skills, or that she wouldn't have had any thought in advance for the horrific consequences of failure. 

I mean, if you read The Hedge Knight, it's overwhelmingly clear that even for a huge and powerful man like Dunk, training and experience are absolutely crucial:

Quote

 

My lance is part of my arm, he told himself. It's my finger, a wooden finger. All I need do is touch him with my long wooden finger.

He tried not to see the sharp iron point at the end of Aerion's black lance, growing larger with every stride. The dragon, look at the dragon, he thought. The great three-headed beast covered the prince's shield, red wings and gold fire. No, look only where you mean to strike, he remembered suddenly, but his lance had already begun to slide off line. Dunk tried to correct, but it was too late. He saw his point strike Aerion's shield, taking the dragon between two of its heads, gouging into a gout of painted flame.

At the muffled crack, he felt Thunder recoil under him, trembling with the force of the impact, and half a heartbeat later something smashed into his side with awful force... He could feel a sharp pain under his rib, and his left arm was being pulled down. Aerion had driven his lance through oak, wool, and steel; three feet of splintered ash and sharp iron stuck from his side. Dunk reached over with his right hand, grasped the lance just below the head, clenched his teeth, and pulled it out of him with one savage yank. Blood followed, seeping through the rings of his mail to redden his surcoat. The world swam and he almost fell.

 

So I think Lyanna very likely would have had such daunting possibilities in her head, too.  Howland obviously did.

Re her disappearance... I think GRRM could make a decent case that the tiny KotLT, the smallest mystery knight since Barristan the Bold at Blackhaven, was just blowing the audience's minds.  That they were all so completely fascinated, including the Starks, nobody was thinking about Lyanna. 

I just don't expect him to make that case.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

YES.  Yes yes yes.     This is where I was going in my post about Lyanna skinchanging Howland's horse (top of page 3) -

Awesome. I knew it had to be somewhere. Going back to edit and give you credit now.

4 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Howland IS the mystery knight...with a little bit of help.     Or perhaps more than a little...which may be why Jojen gives the skeptical "or not"  as his disclaimer to Bran.   Meera clearly believes that this deed was primarily her dad - but Jojen obviously has the raised eyebrow 'ORLY' going on because he understands exactly how much of a contribution a skinchanged horse would have made...and he also must know that Ned was aware of it too, hence the repeated incredulity that Bran hadn't heard this tale from his father.

YES! I mean, skinchanging/warging is a Stark and northman/first man thing, so to other people that know about a skinchanger in the Stark family, they may be assuming the other Starks (at least some) also know of this talent if they are not already one themselves. I mean, Howland does pray to the old gods and they seem to be answering.

4 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

 

And I am absolutely on board with Rhaegar busting Lyanna for her skinchanging - for instance, if he happened upon her during her 'state' and put two and two together.   In that instance, I could imagine that Rhaegar might also be most interested in Lyanna, not for 3rd head prophecy or her wild beauty or her impetuousness or her father's loyalty in a coup, but because she has some really super-special blood that might be of use in some wild-assed Valyrian way, like, say, bonding with a dragon.  

Agreed. IF this is how it happened, who knows, maybe Lyanna clued Rhaegar (learned, book worm type) in to the idea if she tried to change his horse, trying to throw it off its trail. Something like that. I think all of the grey mare's in heat throughout the rest of the story, especially the Hand's tourney, could be a hint at such an event.

4 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

R+L = J is not at the top of my Greatest Hits list, but I could be more likely to buy it should it come to pass that Rhaegar needed a literal brood mare for a dragon hatching scheme.

No worries. I mostly buy it because, to me, it seems the most solid. However, I am always soooo tempted to switch to other sides at times when it seems evidence stacks up, but it there is always some "flaw"  or hole that brings me back . Boring, I know.  It seems that many of the "prophecies" and theories we fans come up with do include RLJ, but when you look at it another way, RLJ is not always required. Anyway... that is not on topic for this thread, and I can only take so many rotten vegetables being tossed at me

[JNR]

From GRRM's not-a-blog, we have this very interesting remark:

Quote

We're not doing Robert's Rebellion either. I know thousands of you want that, I know there's a petition... but by the time I finish writing A SONG OF ICE & FIRE, you will know every important thing that happened in Robert's Rebellion.

Now, Harrenhal happened quite a few months before Robert's Rebellion began, but if the above is true, it still may imply we find out the KotLT's identity.

There are plenty of other implications hidden in there, too.  I was pleased.

[PrettyPig]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Going back to edit and give you credit now.

No worries, just figured you might be interested in the read since you came to the same conclusion!

 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

mean, skinchanging/warging is a Stark and northman/first man thing, so to other people that know about a skinchanger in the Stark family, they may be assuming the other Starks (at least some) also know of this talent if they are not already one themselves.

Yep - now that I think about it, Jojen's line of questioning sounds like an interrogation, like he may be trying to suss out which/how many Starks have the ability.   

Also, for him to be so surprised that Ned never relayed the tale, it almost sounds like he suspects Ned was a skinchanger too - as if the story should have been serving as some kind of cautionary tale "teachable moment" for young Stark wargs passed down by their warg father.

[Arry'sFleas]

On 12/05/2017 at 11:16 AM, PrettyPig said:

and the Knight of the Laughing Tree was born.

this proposed partnership between Howland riding a horse lead by Lyanna, a partnership between Reed and Stark, exemplified by the sigil is a very good match for the very first match between the two families:

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Whatever the truth, the last man to be called Marsh King was killed by King Rickard Stark (sometimes called the Laughing Wolf in the North, for his good nature), who took the man's daughter to wife, whereupon the crannogmen bent their knees and accepted the dominion of Winterfell. In the centuries since, the crannogmen have become stout allies of the Starks, under the leadership of the Reeds of Greywater Watch.

The Laughing Wolf wed the Marsh King's wife, and Howland, a Green Man just returning from the Isle of Faces, is obviously very close to weirwoods.

 

 

[LynnS]

52 minutes ago, Arry'sFleas said:

this proposed partnership between Howland riding a horse lead by Lyanna, a partnership between Reed and Stark, exemplified by the sigil is a very good match for the very first match between the two families:

The Laughing Wolf wed the Marsh King's wife, and Howland, a Green Man just returning from the Isle of Faces, is obviously very close to weirwoods.

 

That sounds right to me!

Quote

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

this proposed partnership between Howland riding a horse lead by Lyanna, a partnership between Reed and Stark, exemplified by the sigil is a very good match for the very first match between the two families:

The Laughing Wolf wed the Marsh King's wife, and Howland, a Green Man just returning from the Isle of Faces, is obviously very close to weirwoods.

 

 

Wow. I hadn't realized that the Reeds may have inherited skinchanging abilities from the Starks! 

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Wow. I hadn't realized that the Reeds may have inherited skinchanging abilities from the Starks! 

I really don't see that. Its been suggested in times past that the Starks got their skinchanging from that union, ie; from the Crannogmen, who were supposedly "close" to the tree-huggers, not the other way around, and in any case given the conquering involved I'd be more inclined to see the marrying as taking a salt wife rather than a dynastic union

[Black Crow]

Just a quick interjection here. This is Heresy 198. I could still do with an OP essay for Heresy 199. If the worst comes to the worst I can probably rummage up something mouldy from the archives, but I'd prefer something new.

 

Any volunteers?

[JNR]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Any volunteers?

What is the topic?

[Melifeather]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I really don't see that. Its been suggested in times past that the Starks got their skinchanging from that union, ie; from the Crannogmen, who were supposedly "close" to the tree-huggers, not the other way around, and in any case given the conquering involved I'd be more inclined to see the marrying as taking a salt wife rather than a dynastic union

A Lord of Winterfell making a Queen info a salt wife? Seems like that kind of insult would last generations.