Heresy 198 The Knight of the Laughing Tree

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that skinchanging is the term that I would use.  Rather Bran is merging with the tree. 

- to combine, blend, or unite gradually so as to blur the individuality or individual identity

Skinchanging is a merging.  Think of how Jojen cautions Bran not to lose himself, his human identity, in the wolf:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran I

"Jojen, what did you mean about a teacher?" Bran asked. "You're my teacher. I know I never marked the tree, but I will the next time. My third eye is open like you wanted . . ."

"So wide open that I fear you may fall through it, and live all the rest of your days as a wolf of the woods."

It's no different for the tree, just more complex since many more than two parties are involved in the collective identity.  The same danger of losing oneself is present:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. He wished Robb were with them now. I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

That was just another silly dream, though. Some days Bran wondered if all of this wasn't just some dream. Maybe he had fallen asleep out in the snows and dreamed himself a safe, warm place. You have to wake, he would tell himself, you have to wake right now, or you'll go dreaming into death. Once or twice he pinched his arm with his fingers, really hard, but the only thing that did was make his arm hurt. In the beginning he had tried to count the days by making note of when he woke and slept, but down here sleeping and waking had a way of melting into one another. Dreams became lessons, lessons became dreams, things happened all at once or not at all. Had he done that or only dreamed it?

 

[Black Crow]

58 minutes ago, JNR said:

Really, whether or not his hand is numb... he should notice that he can't control what it's doing.

His mind works throughout this chapter.  He notices things in his visions. He remembers them.  He questions Bloodraven about what he saw. 

But once again that's the point he's out of his body experiencing these visions as part of the collective conciousness, not twiddling his own thumbs

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Song of water, air and stone.  It's basically the power of telekinesis, and I doubt it's limited to any particular species.  Furthermore, although it's collectively referred to as 'the song of earth,' there's no reason why this power should be earthbound.  Logically, it should work just as well on the 'stones' in space .  As Ned prophesied of his son Bran in the godswood, 'Bran can bridge that distance.'

Look at this passage:

Bran can understand the 'song of stone,' and this is coming from a place in the vicinity of the moon.  What do you think the reference to the 'once lions, but now twisted and grotesques' is about?

The point I still don't understand is why the species calling themselves 'those who sing the song of earth' need human greenseers at all.  Surely if they can sing this song themselves, they would be all-powerful without any need, nor indeed inclination, to share this 'song' with others?  What advantage are they gaining via the humans?

That's true in this context.  I'll concede that.  However, it's nevertheless also true that more broadly taken 'those who sing the song of earth' are not the only ones who sing the song, and are therefore not the only singers, LOL!

I think the "lions" has a double meaning here. He's remembering he saw Jaime and Cersei, but I think the Children could also have been said to have been "lions" back in the days when their numbers were strong. Their presence or powers could be weakened, twisted, and grotesque. At one time they may have been more benevolent beings, but as time and eons went by the dying that joined the godhead were angry and wanted vengence, thus the twisted and grotesque. 

Regarding why they need a human greenseer...that is a puzzle since I agree that if they can sing songs to move earth, water, air, stone, etc, why do they need a human? I do have one idea and that is a human greenseer is also a three-eyed "crow" which I liken to Odin's crows (Huginn and Muninn) which fly out every day and gather "thoughts and memories" and bring them back to Odin. In other words the three eyed crows can enter human dreams and influence what men and women think, feel, and do.

Edited to add: I had proposed before that the description of Azor Ahai's forging of the three swords were actually attempts by the Children to stop invaders. The second sword was tempered in the heart of a lion. IMO this sword was the creation of white walkers. The first sword that was tempered in water, or rather the hammer of waters that broke the Arm was not enough to stay the tide (har) of invaders, so they decided to fight back. Thus, they remembered they were the "lions" in the woods and not meek pussycats that needed to run and hide. 

[Matthew.]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

He also, and this is very telling, never loses control of his voice, which alone is proof he was never skinchanged, as his own experience with Hodor demonstrates.

Why does this constitute proof that he was not "skinchanged," especially in the sense of a more subtle, passive bond, as exists with his wolf? When Bran is in Summer, can Summer only howl if Bran wills it? That's not the way I've read the text; I've always taken it that Bran is a passenger, with the ability to become the "commanding will" in the wolf if necessary.

5 hours ago, JNR said:

Also, of course, the wolves never (not once) assume command of the Stark kids' bodies.  Always, it's the other way around.  Bran has never been skinchanged by anything else in his life and it's unimaginable to me that that could happen without his noticing it.

As above, this seems an awfully declarative statement for something that I'm not so certain is clear cut. Bran dreams of being a wolf, but does the wolf dream of being Bran? Does Nymeria dream of being Arya?

Furthermore, you are arguing against a particular interpretation of "skinchanging" that I'm not sure is entirely accurate to what is being discussed--that you are imagining something different than what myself, BC, and certain others might be imagining. In particular, you seem to be proposing a loss of will, an invasion, while I think some of us are imagining something more akin to a "blending of wills," that Bran is beginning to subconsciously pick up on thoughts and wants that are not his own, without even realizing it.

As an illustrative example, if Bran were afraid, would Summer, through their bond, feel that fear, and react accordingly, without any "active" skinchanging necessary, without any need for commands? That's the way I read their bond, and if Bran is beginning to bond with the animistic godhood of the CotF, it may be that a similar sharing of thoughts and feelings will begin to occur.

We have no existing context for what it truly means to be a greenseer, no context for the full extent of their capabilities, no context for the price they pay, save for that which has been abruptly introduced in a single ADWD chapter. Thus, we cannot authoritatively declare what Bran should or should not be thinking or experiencing--we're entering uncharted territory, and there are no "greenseer rules" that speculative discussion can violate, save for those already established in Bran III.

If Bran is not appalled by what is happening, this could mean that nothing appalling (from our point of view) has occurred, but it could also be a warning sign that Bran's perspective is already being altered.  Think of Haggon's warning to Varamyr that certain bonds can change the skinchanger--for example, a man who wears the skin of a prey animal can be made into a coward.

How might one be affected by wearing the "skin" of weirnet? As BC suggests, does the body become increasingly irrelevant? Does the self become irrelevant? 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

Also, of course, the wolves never (not once) assume command of the Stark kids' bodies.  Always, it's the other way around.  Bran has never been skinchanged by anything else in his life and it's unimaginable to me that that could happen without his noticing it.

That I'm not so sure of. Jon's beserk rages, which he has no conscious knowledge of, suggest that Ghost is taking over and that Jon becomes the wolf.

[Black Crow]

11 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

How might one be affected by wearing the "skin" of weirnet? As BC suggests, does the body become increasingly irrelevant? Does the self become irrelevant? 

Exactly so and that of course is exactly what is happening in A Song for Lya

[Matthew.]

It's also worth remembering the observation that prompted this whole tangent in the first place--the idea of a person sitting around complacently while a root system grows into their body. Implicitly, if Bran continues down the greenseer path, he will become accustomed to all sorts of things he should logically find appalling, and it may be that his mental 'conditioning' is already well under way.

...though I still stand by my sentiment that I don't think the hand raising thing is actually an example of Bran receiving outside influence, and I also agree with JNR that "Singers" is specifically describing a race, and not everyone who learns to sing the song of earth.

[ravenous reader]

25 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

"Singers" is specifically describing a race, and not everyone who learns to sing the song of earth.

The semantics is not as clear cut as you and JNR are insisting.  In so far as one sings that song, one is a singer.  

Moreover, in view of the merging of species, with concomitant loss/dissolution of strict identity boundaries that is occurring in the collective, can you really argue against Bran being a singer, at least in part?  Mutual infiltration.

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

In other words the three eyed crows can enter human dreams and influence what men and women think, feel, and do.

Speaking of the ability to enter human dreams and influence their thoughts and memories, IMO this is what happened to Ned in his fever dream. Personally, I suspect that Ned is not remembering Lyanna's death...but Ashara's. Entertain that thought for the moment. If Bloodraven, as a three-eyed-crow, has that power of suggestion...that he can deliberately manipulate someone's memory, would you agree that would be a useful and powerful tool? 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Matthew. said:

It's also worth remembering the observation that prompted this whole tangent in the first place--the idea of a person sitting around complacently while a root system grows into their body. Implicitly, if Bran continues down the greenseer path, he will become accustomed to all sorts of things he should logically find appalling, and it may be that his mental 'conditioning' is already well under way.

There's also direct evidence of this in Bran's skinchanging of Summer. While he runs with Summer and enjoys life as a wolf - usually quite passively. His own body is left behind oblivious both to what's going on around it and to its own growing hunger - which is why the Bobsey twins continually warn him about staying out too late. 

Whether Bran raises his hand of his own volition or not, he's once again oblivious of it because he's out of his body, not in Summer this time but in the trees

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The semantics is not as clear cut as you and JNR are insisting.  In so far as one sings that song, one is a singer.  

Moreover, in view of the merging of species, with concomitant loss/dissolution of strict identity boundaries that is occurring in the collective, can you really argue against Bran being a singer, at least in part?  Mutual infiltration.

Again we have the precedent of the unquestionably human Lya [and the others who prompted the investigation in the first place] becoming a singer.

[LynnS]

Touching the hand, followed by raising the hand, sounds like something that would occur in a hypnotic state, another means for accessing the unconscious mind.   It implies a certain level of suggestibility.   Bran might not be aware of lifting his hand and he may not feel any differently.

[Matthew.]

17 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The semantics is not as clear cut as you and JNR are insisting.  In so far as one sings that song, one is a singer.  

Moreover, in view of the merging of species, with concomitant loss/dissolution of strict identity boundaries that is occurring in the collective, can you really argue against Bran being a singer, at least in part?  Mutual infiltration.

I'm not really rejecting the premise that Bran is becoming a singer in a technical sense, I just think this is more a clarity of communication thing, both within the text and within our discussions--when Bran thinks of "the singers," he is using this to refer specifically to the living CotF, as opposed to using it as a word that encompasses himself, Bloodraven, the crows, the old gods, and anything else that might theoretically be a part of some vast psychic web. 

This is the way language is used within the text, and the way it is understood within discussions, so while it's an interesting observation that Bloodraven could be described as a "singer of the song of earth," actually referring to him as such when most people understand "the Singers" as a byword for the CotF has no practical value if your audience isn't going to understand the idea you're trying to communicate--it's sacrificing clarity for the sake of being technically correct.

Edit: I suppose I am declaring this to be semantically clear cut, as I think the passage covered in the last few pages is correctly read as "the other singers" defining those singers relative to Leaf, not relative to Bran; again, I agree that Bran is technically joining "the singers," but that doesn't seem to be the meaning his narration is conveying in using "the singers," and I think GRRM will communicate Bran's transition in a far more clear way than redefining Bran's internal word choices.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I'm not really rejecting the premise that Bran is becoming a singer in a technical sense, I just think this is more a clarity of communication thing, both within the text and within our discussions--when Bran thinks of "the singers," he is using this to refer specifically to the living CotF, as opposed to using it as a word that encompasses himself, Bloodraven, the crows, the old gods, and anything else that might theoretically be a part of some vast psychic web. 

This is the way language is used within the text, and the way it is understood within discussions, so while it's an interesting observation that Bloodraven could be described as a "singer of the song of earth," actually referring to him as such when most people understand "the Singers" as a byword for the CotF has no practical value if your audience isn't going to understand the idea you're trying to communicate--it's sacrificing clarity for the sake of being technically correct.

Edit: I suppose I am declaring this to be semantically clear cut, as I think the passage covered in the last few pages is correctly read as "the other singers" defining those singers relative to Leaf, not relative to Bran; again, I agree that Bran is technically joining "the singers," but that doesn't seem to be the meaning his narration is conveying in using "the singers," and I think GRRM will communicate Bran's transition in a far more clear way than redefining Bran's internal word choices.

It's my understanding that not all Children are singers. I always took it that there was a specific group of Children that were the singers.

[Frey family reunion]

On 5/24/2017 at 10:21 PM, Black Crow said:

We had this conversation earlier, but in the circumstances I'd say that its worth you repeating the parallels vis a vis the Laughing Tree.

Sure, the Harrenhal tourney and the tourney at Ashby in Ivanhoe share a number of similar characters and roles, but they are just jumbled up a bit.

The protagonist, Ivanhoe, plays the part of the mystery knight, Desdichado, named the Disinherited in the book.  Like the Harrenhal mystery knight, Ivanhoe chooses as his symbol a tree, his being a young oak tree pulled up by its roots.  (Ivanhoe was disinherited by his very pro Saxon father for supporting and going to war with the Norman king, Richard the Lionhearted.)

The Ashby tourney is presided over by Prince John.  However, King Richard is also present at the tourney disguised as an unnamed black knight.  In Harrenhal, King Aerys presides over the tourney, while Prince Rhaegar plays the part of a black knight.

Ivanhoe as the mystery knight, wins the joust and crowns his father's ward, the Saxon, Lady Rowenna, the Queen of Love and Beauty.  This being a big source of pride to her proudly Saxon guardian, but a major source of bitterness to her Saxon betrothed, Athelstan.  Of course, in our story, the black knight, Rhaegar wins the tourney and crowns Lyanna.  Unlike Lady Rowenna's adopted family, there is no since of pride in the honor bestowed upon Lyanna by Rhaegar.

Prince John becomes highly paranoid of the mystery knight and is suspicious that it is his brother, King Richard in disguise.  Prince John Encourages a number of combatants to take the mystery knight down a peg in the melee set for the next day. This group of Norman knights is joined by Lady Rowenna's betrothed.  Beset by multiple enemies, the mystery knight is saved by King Richard still in disguise as the black knight.

In our story, Rhaegar as the black knight is ordered to track down TKOTLT, and after this effort decides to join the joust and crown Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty.  

There also elements of discrimination shown in both stories.  In TKOTLT, the Andal squires tell the crannogman, Howland Reed, that he is not wanted at the tourney.  In Ivanhoe, it is the Saxons who tell Abraham, a Jew, and his daughter, Rebecca that they are not wanted amongs the Saxons.  Lyanna comes to Howland's rescue and invites him to have a seat at her family's table.

Ivanhoe insists that his Saxon squire treat Abraham fairly because Abraham and his daughter had taken Ivanhoe in earlier when he needed aid, and financed his armor for the tournament.

Both tales feature a clash of cultures.  Andals, First Men, and crannogman in TKOTLT, and Normans, Saxons, and Jews in the Ivanhoe story.  We have a "First Man" girl in Lyanna crowned as the Queen of Love and Beauty, by a black knight, Rhaegar much to the surprise and consternation of everyone present.  While much to the surprise and indignation of the Norman nobles, a mystery knight crowns a Saxon girl the queen of love and beauty.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sure, the Harrenhal tourney and the tourney at Ashby in Ivanhoe share a number of similar characters and roles, but they are just jumbled up a bit.

 

Ah,a splendid summary 

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Ah,a splendid summary 

The main thing I took away from the Ivanhoe tale, is not to discount the political aspect of naming a queen of the tourney and not to overestimate the romantic overtures of the gesture.  

While in the Ashby tourney, there was a romantic motivation behind Ivanhoe naming Lady Rowenna as the Queen of Love and Beauty, the tale made it clear that there didn't necessarily have to be a romantic motivation behind the award.

Prince John loudly tried to steer the mystery knight into granting the award to a noble Norman lady, whose family John wished to curry favor.  John's motivation was two-fold.  One he wanted to make sure the family knew that he was making it clear that the Norman lady deserved the honor, and secondly if the mystery knight didn't award the title to the Norman family, he wanted to help generate enmity from that family to the person behind the mystery knight.  So clearly one of the motivation behind the award was to try to curry favor with the family of the recipient.  

The award could also be seen purely as a token of esteem and respect towards the recipient or towards her family.  In the Ashby tourney, Cedric the Saxon sees the award as a source of Saxon pride (his ward was chosen over the Norman ladies).  This makes Brandon's reaction to Rhaegar giving the award to Lyanna so unusual.  Rhaegar a married man with his pregnant wife in attendance, giving the award to the daughter of the Stark family should have been seen as a nod of respect towards the Stark family.  Especially if it was known that Rhaegar was trying to curry favor with the family.  I can see Robert being a bit put out, but I can't see Brandon being more upset than Robert.  Of course it may have had more to do with the choice of flowers of the award as opposed to the award itself.  A key question is whether Brandon knew of the Bael tale, which may have influenced his reaction, and more importantly whether Rhaegar was aware of the tale.  If Rhaegar was unaware of the tale, I do wonder if his choice of flowers was influenced by someone trying to drive a wedge between. Rhaegar and the Starks.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

The main thing I took away from the Ivanhoe tale, is not to discount the political aspect of naming a queen of the tourney and not to overestimate the romantic overtures of the gesture.  

While in the Ashby tourney, there was a romantic motivation behind Ivanhoe naming Lady Rowenna as the Queen of Love and Beauty, the tale made it clear that there didn't necessarily have to be a romantic motivation behind the award.

Prince John loudly tried to steer the mystery knight into granting the award to a noble Norman lady, whose family John wished to curry favor.  John's motivation was two-fold.  One he wanted to make sure the family knew that he was making it clear that the Norman lady deserved the honor, and secondly if the mystery knight didn't award the title to the Norman family, he wanted to help generate enmity from that family to the person behind the mystery knight.  So clearly one of the motivation behind the award was to try to curry favor with the family of the recipient.  

The award could also be seen purely as a token of esteem and respect towards the recipient or towards her family.  In the Ashby tourney, Cedric the Saxon sees the award as a source of Saxon pride (his ward was chosen over the Norman ladies).  This makes Brandon's reaction to Rhaegar giving the award to Lyanna so unusual.  Rhaegar a married man with his pregnant wife in attendance, giving the award to the daughter of the Stark family should have been seen as a nod of respect towards the Stark family.  Especially if it was known that Rhaegar was trying to curry favor with the family.  I can see Robert being a bit put out, but I can't see Brandon being more upset than Robert.  Of course it may have had more to do with the choice of flowers of the award as opposed to the award itself.  A key question is whether Brandon knew of the Bael tale, which may have influenced his reaction, and more importantly whether Rhaegar was aware of the tale.  If Rhaegar was unaware of the tale, I do wonder if his choice of flowers was influenced by someone trying to drive a wedge between. Rhaegar and the Starks.

Interesting.  It's also worth noting that Ned doesn't attribute any romantic intention either when he says that Lyanna was given the crown of beauty, rather than the crown of love and beauty.  Kevan Lannister also says that in a contest of beauty, that Cersei would have won if she was in attendance. Rhaegar had to look twice, because on first glance Lyanna's wildness and tom-boyish behavior hides the beauty that she will become, not unlike Arya.

I would ascribe political motivation as well.  Rhaegar says that he wanted to make a change long ago, possibly having something to do with the Defiance of Duskendale where Aerys could have met his end without Barristan Selmy to rescue him.   The Tourney of Harrenhal was fraught with political tension with Rhaegar attempting to forge political alliances.  Again, Kevan Lannister gives the bottom line -- had Rhaeger chosen Cersei over Elia, war would have been avoided.  

Rhaegar tells us that Aerys was more fearful of Tywin Lannister than he was of Robert Baratheon.  Awarding the crown to Lyanna, directed Aerys's suspicions to the Starks and Baratheons.  Brandon's anger seems more akin to a reaction concerning a betrayal to me than anything else especially since he doesn't make any demands about Lyanna when he goes to Kingslanding.  It seems more a matter of honor and pride which seems to be Ned's sin as well.  An accusation perhaps.    

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Interesting.  It's also worth noting that Ned doesn't attribute any romantic intention either when he says that Lyanna was given the crown of beauty, rather than the crown of love and beauty.  Kevan Lannister also says that in a contest of beauty, that Cersei would have won if she was in attendance. Rhaegar had to look twice, because on first glance Lyanna's wildness and tom-boyish behavior hides the beauty that she will become, not unlike Arya.

I would ascribe political motivation as well.  Rhaegar says that he wanted to make a change long ago, possibly having something to do with the Defiance of Duskendale where Aerys could have met his end without Barristan Selmy to rescue him.   The Tourney of Harrenhal was fraught with political tension with Rhaegar attempting to forge political alliances.  Again, Kevan Lannister gives the bottom line -- had Rhaeger chosen Cersei over Elia, war would have been avoided.  

Rhaegar tells us that Aerys was more fearful of Tywin Lannister than he was of Robert Baratheon.  Awarding the crown to Lyanna, directed Aerys's suspicions to the Starks and Baratheons.  Brandon's anger seems more akin to a reaction concerning a betrayal to me than anything else especially since he doesn't make any demands about Lyanna when he goes to Kingslanding.  It seems more a matter of honor and pride which seems to be Ned's sin as well.  An accusation perhaps.    

I could see the award as exposing the Starks as Rhaegar's ally for a coup, or naming them as rebels. The fact that the blue roses were even selected shows advance planning, which then circles back to whomever backed the tourney.

[Brad Stark]

On 5/27/2017 at 10:03 AM, Feather Crystal said:

I could see the award as exposing the Starks as Rhaegar's ally for a coup, or naming them as rebels. The fact that the blue roses were even selected shows advance planning, which then circles back to whomever backed the tourney.

It seems blue roses were picked with the intent of giving them to Lyanna Stark, it would make no sense to give them to Lord Whent's daughter or anyone else.  Who picked them and why is a little more debatable, but the only 2 candidates I've thought of were Rhaegar and Robert Baratheon.  Can anyone else come up with another credible candidate?

The most obvious answer to me is Rhaegar picked them as a romantic gesture.  Rhaegar secretly backed the tournament to organize a rebellion and take the throne, but fell in love with Lyanna, and thought he could have both.  He underestimated the reaction of both Rickard Stark and his father, which started the rebellion he wanted, but too soon and with him on the wrong side, and he ended up dying for the women he loves at the trident.

We've also discussed Rhaegar as the backer with the roses as an insult to House Stark on heresy before.  This never made sense to me.  Why would Rhaegar insult House Stark if he wanted a rebellion, and why go through all this trouble and expense if he only wanted an insult?

I don't remember discussing Robert backing the tournament, but I like this very much.  Robert ends up King and gets out of a marriage he didn't want, gaining more than anyone else did.  He'd have the funds to arrange the tournament.  As one of the best jousters,  it would be easier to ensure Rhaegar wins (If Rhaegar fixed the tournament, either Robert had to be in on it, or someone needed to beat Robert fairly).  

A few things don't fit.  Robert and Lyanna were engaged because of the plans for rebellion, which makes no sense if Robert was planning the rebellion and didn't want to marry Lyanna.  And Robert wasn't the scheming clever character Littlefinger and Varys are, he was almost the opposite.  So someone else would have to be the brains behind this, but Robert may have gone along.