Heresy 198 The Knight of the Laughing Tree

[Wolfgirly]

57 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

It seems blue roses were picked with the intent of giving them to Lyanna Stark, it would make no sense to give them to Lord Whent's daughter or anyone else.  Who picked them and why is a little more debatable, but the only 2 candidates I've thought of were Rhaegar and Robert Baratheon.  Can anyone else come up with another credible candidate?

The most obvious answer to me is Rhaegar picked them as a romantic gesture.  Rhaegar secretly backed the tournament to organize a rebellion and take the throne, but fell in love with Lyanna, and thought he could have both.  He underestimated the reaction of both Rickard Stark and his father, which started the rebellion he wanted, but too soon and with him on the wrong side, and he ended up dying for the women he loves at the trident.

We've also discussed Rhaegar as the backer with the roses as an insult to House Stark on heresy before.  This never made sense to me.  Why would Rhaegar insult House Stark if he wanted a rebellion, and why go through all this trouble and expense if he only wanted an insult?

I don't remember discussing Robert backing the tournament, but I like this very much.  Robert ends up King and gets out of a marriage he didn't want, gaining more than anyone else did.  He'd have the funds to arrange the tournament.  As one of the best jousters,  it would be easier to ensure Rhaegar wins (If Rhaegar fixed the tournament, either Robert had to be in on it, or someone needed to beat Robert fairly).  

A few things don't fit.  Robert and Lyanna were engaged because of the plans for rebellion, which makes no sense if Robert was planning the rebellion and didn't want to marry Lyanna.  And Robert wasn't the scheming clever character Littlefinger and Varys are, he was almost the opposite.  So someone else would have to be the brains behind this, but Robert may have gone along.

 

I do very much agree with you. One big question though: why did Rhaegar have to do this so publically? If he had given them to his wife in front of everyone, then no big deal. No animosity. He would've been able to send flowers to Lyanna in secret, and use ravens to exchange letters with her. I don't get it, why he was so open about his affections for her. If he wasn't married, sure he could've given Lyanna the roses. Not only did Rhaegar upset his wife and many others including Robert, he also showed himself up and made himself look bad. 

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, Wolfgirly said:

I do very much agree with you. One big question though: why did Rhaegar have to do this so publically? If he had given them to his wife in front of everyone, then no big deal. No animosity. He would've been able to send flowers to Lyanna in secret, and use ravens to exchange letters with her. I don't get it, why he was so open about his affections for her. If he wasn't married, sure he could've given Lyanna the roses. Not only did Rhaegar upset his wife and many others including Robert, he also showed himself up and made himself look bad. 

My impression is Rhaegar was a spoiled brat - someone used to getting exactly what he wants without being challenged or anything going wrong.  He could have given Lyanne the roses, or kidnapped her, without drawing attention to himself - instead he wants a big grand gesture where he flaunts his power in everyone's face.

[JNR]

On 5/25/2017 at 11:18 AM, Black Crow said:

But once again that's the point he's out of his body experiencing these visions as part of the collective conciousness, not twiddling his own thumbs

But not at the time his hand was raised.

Let's take another look at the passage, which I have numbered for convenience:

Quote

 

(1) Leaf touched his hand. "The trees will teach you. The trees remember." (2, 3, 4) He raised a hand, and (5) the other singers began to move about the cavern, extinguishing the torches one by one. The darkness thickened and crept toward them.

(6) "Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see."

Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree. (7) For an instant he could see the cavern in its black mantle, could hear the river rushing by below. (8) Then all at once he was back home again.

 

So the idea as I understand it is that (going by the numbers):

1) Leaf skinchanged/bonded with Bran, in some extraordinarily subtle way that he, a greenseer, did not even notice... and she did this by touching his hand

2) Leaf then raises Bran's hand for him, overpowering Bran's own control over it

3) Bran notices his hand go up (it's a Bran POV chapter, after all --  the whole chapter is about what Bran notices, thinks, or feels)

4) But despite seeing his hand go up, Bran did not notice that his hand moved on its own, independently of his will (!!)

5) He then notices that the CotF are extinguishing torches, and that it was getting darker, etc.

6) Then Bloodraven tells him to skinchange the weirwoods, and Bran has no trouble hearing and understanding Bloodraven

7) Then he does skinchange the trees

8) Finally, last step, he experiences the vision in which he sees Ned, etc. and is not paying attention to his body and the sensory information hitting it

All this seems rather complex compared to the idea that GRRM failed to type an S in the fourth sentence, and that Leaf was the one who raised a hand, to tell the other singers what to do, just like she had earlier in the chapter.

On 5/25/2017 at 3:49 PM, Black Crow said:

Jon's beserk rages, which he has no conscious knowledge of, suggest that Ghost is taking over and that Jon becomes the wolf.

Well, it's possible, but that's only an idea from Heresy.  It's certainly not canonical fact.

Also, I'm pretty sure I've just demonstrated that Bran does have clear and conscious knowledge of what is happening at the time his hand goes up, as well as after that.

Just count all the things he sees and hears prior to skinchanging the trees.  This is totally unlike Jon at the time he smashed Iron Emmett (because Jon, as you say, blacked out).

[Melifeather]

On 5/28/2017 at 1:14 PM, Brad Stark said:

It seems blue roses were picked with the intent of giving them to Lyanna Stark, it would make no sense to give them to Lord Whent's daughter or anyone else.  Who picked them and why is a little more debatable, but the only 2 candidates I've thought of were Rhaegar and Robert Baratheon.  Can anyone else come up with another credible candidate?

The most obvious answer to me is Rhaegar picked them as a romantic gesture.  Rhaegar secretly backed the tournament to organize a rebellion and take the throne, but fell in love with Lyanna, and thought he could have both.  He underestimated the reaction of both Rickard Stark and his father, which started the rebellion he wanted, but too soon and with him on the wrong side, and he ended up dying for the women he loves at the trident.

We've also discussed Rhaegar as the backer with the roses as an insult to House Stark on heresy before.  This never made sense to me.  Why would Rhaegar insult House Stark if he wanted a rebellion, and why go through all this trouble and expense if he only wanted an insult?

I don't remember discussing Robert backing the tournament, but I like this very much.  Robert ends up King and gets out of a marriage he didn't want, gaining more than anyone else did.  He'd have the funds to arrange the tournament.  As one of the best jousters,  it would be easier to ensure Rhaegar wins (If Rhaegar fixed the tournament, either Robert had to be in on it, or someone needed to beat Robert fairly).  

A few things don't fit.  Robert and Lyanna were engaged because of the plans for rebellion, which makes no sense if Robert was planning the rebellion and didn't want to marry Lyanna.  And Robert wasn't the scheming clever character Littlefinger and Varys are, he was almost the opposite.  So someone else would have to be the brains behind this, but Robert may have gone along.

 

IMO Tywin Lannister provided funds to help back the tourney, even though he was conspicuously absent. He wasn't there, because he didn't want anyone to know that he supported a coup with or without Rhaegar. He wanted his official "appearance" to be one of neutrality. I view the blue roses as a setup, although how could anyone know in advance that Rhaegar would win or that the winner would present the flowers to Lyanna? The only thing that makes sense to me is that Rhaegar knew the story of Bael the Bard and the blue roses of Winterfell and simply gave them to Lyanna, because she was a maid of Winterfell. Added to this would have been Rhaegar's investigation into the identity of the mystery knight. He must have deduced that the three knights defeated by the mystery knight were connected to the three squires chased off by Lyanna. I can see how putting those two connections together would warrant an acknowledgement by Rhaegar. He may not have even put that much thought into it just as Loras hadn't even remembered that he gave Sansa a rose.

[Black Crow]

I'm still in agreement with the suggestion that GRRM was [is?] heavily influenced by the Ivanhoe tournament; that this is political not romantic and that there are two competing conspiracies; St. Jon of Arryn's Baratheon/Stark alliance to oust the dragons and Rhaegar's counter-plot to save the dynasty in order to bring forth the Prince that was Promised. 

In that context the blue roses are both an invitation and a warning - join me or else.

Where the mystery knight fits in then becomes a very interesting question because its hard to see it as a random event with no connection to the politics. Is he the "champion" of the old gods against the new with Rhaegar's gesture being the dragon's riposte?

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

how could anyone know in advance that Rhaegar would win or that the winner would present the flowers to Lyanna? 

If the tournament was fixed, they'd know.  Rhaegar would have the support of the kingsguard, who'd be able to beat most challengers but lose to Rhaegar on purpose. 

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

If the tournament was fixed, they'd know.  Rhaegar would have the support of the kingsguard, who'd be able to beat most challengers but lose to Rhaegar on purpose. 

Well the mystery knight bested three challengers the day before Rhaegar won and should have advanced to the next day, but he/she disappeared. Rhaegar actually parallels the mystery knight repeating many of the things the KofLT did just a day or so before, so I am wondering how much of his success may be attributed to the old gods?

[JNR]

20 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

If the tournament was fixed, they'd know.  Rhaegar would have the support of the kingsguard, who'd be able to beat most challengers but lose to Rhaegar on purpose. 

Yep, that makes good sense.  And actually, Snowfyre posted a theory a long time ago along just those lines, citing these bits from a Selmy POV chapter:

Quote

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

The obvious way to read this is that Selmy means "a better jouster" when he says "better knight."

But it seems from the same chapter that Selmy actually defines true knighthood in a different way, that isn't about jousting or swordsmanship:

Quote

He spoke to them about what it meant to be a knight. "It is chivalry that makes a true knight, not a sword," he said."Without honor, a knight is no more than a common killer. It is better to die with honor than to live without it." The boys looked at him strangely, he thought, but one day they would understand.

So if Rhaegar told Selmy to lose, and he did lose, he would be following an order (making him a good KG).  But he would also, perhaps, not really be competing with honor (making him a poor knight).

As usual, GRRM is ambiguous and subtle and leaves it up to us to decide.

[Melifeather]

IMO It makes more sense that Tywin told Selmy to let Rhaegar win. It doesn't seem to fit Rhaegar's personality to order people to lose. I can't help but draw parallels to when Ned told Robert that people would let him win in order to get him to withdraw. Added to this was how easily Robert accepted Selmy into his own Kingsguard. Almost as if they had a prior relationship.

[JNR]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It doesn't seem to fit Rhaegar's personality to order people to lose.

That's a fair complaint, and I agree that he is characterized rather consistently as basically noble at heart.

However, consider that Tywin wasn't present at Harrenhal and also, not belonging to the royal family, had no authority to tell the KG what to do. 

Rhaegar qualified in both departments (and if you believe he had a thing for Lyanna, he also had a strong motive that Tywin likely did not).

But all this is not to say I believe that the KG took a dive, by anybody's orders; I just think it's an interesting and plausible theory.  Snowfyre would be the best person to defend it.

[ravenous reader]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

As usual, GRRM is ambiguous and subtle and leaves it up to us to decide.

Don't you ever get tired of that?  This game is wearing thin on me.

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, JNR said:

That's a fair complaint, and I agree that he is characterized rather consistently as basically noble at heart.

However, consider that Tywin wasn't present at Harrenhal and also, not belonging to the royal family, had no authority to tell the KG what to do. 

Rhaegar qualified in both departments (and if you believe he had a thing for Lyanna, he also had a strong motive that Tywin likely did not).

But all this is not to say I believe that the KG took a dive, by anybody's orders; I just think it's an interesting and plausible theory.  Snowfyre would be the best person to defend it.

Of all the characters, we are witness at how adept Tywin was of fighting battles with his quill. The big one was the Red Wedding. He wasn't there either, but got Roose Bolton and Walder Frey to carry out the treachery. We are told multiple times about Tywin's grudge with Aerys, who at one time was his friend. Is it really all that surprising that he could be capable of carefully plotting out his revenge in a hidden rather than public manner like he did with the Tarbecks and Reynes? Tywin wanted Cersei to be queen, and when Aerys declined the proposal to wed her to Rhaegar do you think he simply dropped the matter? The attack on Elia by the Kingswood Brotherhood may have been a secret attack on her life in order to make way for a remarriage, but Ser Gerold saved her and suffered an injury during the attack. The Harrenhall Tourney is shortly afterward, and being a possible benefactor for bankrolling the tourney would be proof of Tywin's loyalty to Rhaegar while his public absence showed his displeasure with Aerys. I would think there would still be people in Kings Landing more inclined to follow Tywin's orders over Aerys including some Kingsguard like Barristan Selmy, especially if he thought he was also supporting Rhaegar. He very well could have hidden a self-serving and self-important agenda behind false honor. His very public humiliation by Joffrey and Cersei must have came as quite a shock, but with Tywin gone he realized the dream of a Rhaegar "Camelot" was truly over and gone a long time ago and he had gotten into bed with lions. His search for Dany was really a search to redeem himself.

You have to ask yourself. Who benefited from Lyanna's disappearance? it sure wasn't Rhaegar. I think the end results should be evidence enough. Tywin finally got what he wanted. Cersei became queen.

[WeKnowNothing]

13 hours ago, JNR said:

Yep, that makes good sense.  And actually, Snowfyre posted a theory a long time ago along just those lines, citing these bits from a Selmy POV chapter:

The obvious way to read this is that Selmy means "a better jouster" when he says "better knight."

But it seems from the same chapter that Selmy actually defines true knighthood in a different way, that isn't about jousting or swordsmanship:

So if Rhaegar told Selmy to lose, and he did lose, he would be following an order (making him a good KG).  But he would also, perhaps, not really be competing with honor (making him a poor knight).

As usual, GRRM is ambiguous and subtle and leaves it up to us to decide.

 

51 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Of all the characters, we are witness at how adept Tywin was of fighting battles with his quill. The big one was the Red Wedding. He wasn't there either, but got Roose Bolton and Walder Frey to carry out the treachery. We are told multiple times about Tywin's grudge with Aerys, who at one time was his friend. Is it really all that surprising that he could be capable of carefully plotting out his revenge in a hidden rather than public manner like he did with the Tarbecks and Reynes? Tywin wanted Cersei to be queen, and when Aerys declined the proposal to wed her to Rhaegar do you think he simply dropped the matter? The attack on Elia by the Kingswood Brotherhood may have been a secret attack on her life in order to make way for a remarriage, but Ser Gerold saved her and suffered an injury during the attack. The Harrenhall Tourney is shortly afterward, and being a possible benefactor for bankrolling the tourney would be proof of Tywin's loyalty to Rhaegar while his public absence showed his displeasure with Aerys. I would think there would still be people in Kings Landing more inclined to follow Tywin's orders over Aerys including some Kingsguard like Barristan Selmy, especially if he thought he was also supporting Rhaegar. He very well could have hidden a self-serving and self-important agenda behind false honor. His very public humiliation by Joffrey and Cersei must have came as quite a shock, but with Tywin gone he realized the dream of a Rhaegar "Camelot" was truly over and gone a long time ago and he had gotten into bed with lions. His search for Dany was really a search to redeem himself.

You have to ask yourself. Who benefited from Lyanna's disappearance? it sure wasn't Rhaegar. I think the end results should be evidence enough. Tywin finally got what he wanted. Cersei became queen.

It is very like Tywin to go about revenge secretly, just as said about the red wedding. So is it specifically implied that Tywin was behind the whole attack on Elia by the Kingswood brotherhood? Even if he was I wouldn't be suprised, but it isn't like the KB couldn't do this if they had their own motives. It is said in the AWOIAF written by Maester Yandel that he suspected Rhaegar himself could have been funding the harrenhal tourney, as Tywin was shown not to have any communication with the Aerys or Rhaegar at this point. Tywin being away at Casterly Rock and Rhaegar at Dragonstone wouldn't be easy for them to plan a consparicy of any type. 

I think the lords fighting the rebellion (especially Robert) were hoping that Lyanna would be made queen. it wasn't until a month or two after the sack of Kings Landing that Ned had returned with her dead. So Tywin would have jumped onto Roberts side as the new king, but he wasn't expecting to make Cersei queen. Maybe when Lyanna was said to be dead, did he take the chance to propose Cersei as the new queen. 

[JNR]

13 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Don't you ever get tired of that?  This game is wearing thin on me.

Well... I think most of the major mysteries can be solved with reasonable confidence in advance by sufficiently persistent and well-informed readers.  GRRM has been subtle, but also fair -- exactly what he wanted to be.

Things like "Did Selmy and Dayne deliberately lose the joust at Harrenhal?" are smaller sub-mysteries that GRRM can't have known his reading audience would realize existed.  I for instance didn't even conceive of the possibility Selmy took a dive until Snowfyre brought it up... so it never had a chance to wear thin.

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You have to ask yourself. Who benefited from Lyanna's disappearance?

Ultimately Tywin did well for himself in the big picture, but he couldn't have known that would be the case.  It could so easily have gone another way. 

Suppose, for instance, that Connington had simply burned down Stony Sept, where Robert was hiding.  Now Robert dies; the Rebellion ends; Connington remains Hand, the object of glory in the Targaryen eye.  

Tywin appears to be a traitor, or close to it, for refusing to answer Aerys' ravens or support his monarch in a time of war.  This situation doesn't pan out well for Tywin or the Lannister cause, to say the least.

So I have to look at the nearer time frame re Harrenhal.  I imagine Tywin sending ravens to Dayne and Selmy telling them: Take a dive in the joust at Harrenhal. Let Rhaegar beat you.  Selmy and Dayne are both Targaryen loyalists, sworn to Aerys, who will never take such instruction from Tywin, but will instead go to Aerys or Rhaegar with the messages in hand, looking for instruction.  And Rhaegar might approve, but Aerys' reaction would be... unpredictable... and possibly disastrous.  I think Tywin would have seen that problem coming as easily as I did.

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, JNR said:

Well... I think most of the major mysteries can be solved with reasonable confidence in advance by sufficiently persistent and well-informed readers. 

That's the illusion.  If that were truly the case, by now there would be greater consensus on Jon's parentage or Bran's would-be assassination, for example.

1 minute ago, JNR said:

GRRM has been subtle, but also fair -- exactly what he wanted to be.

I agree on the subtlety; I disagree about the fairness.

Quote

Septimus: In the margin of his copy of Arithmetica, Fermat wrote that he had discovered a wonderful proof of his theorem but, the margin being too narrow for his purpose, did not have room to write it down. The note was found after his death, and from that day to this --
Thomasina: Oh! I see now! The answer is perfectly obvious! [...] There is no proof, Septimus. The thing that is perfectly obvious is that the note in the margin was a joke to make you all mad. 

-- Tom Stoppard.  From:  'Arcadia'

 

1 minute ago, JNR said:

Things like "Did Selmy and Dayne deliberately lose the joust at Harrenhal?" are smaller sub-mysteries that GRRM can't have known his reading audience would realize existed.  I for instance didn't even conceive of the possibility Selmy took a dive until Snowfyre brought it up... so it never had a chance to wear thin.

From those quotes you provided, I think he threw the joust deliberately for some reason.  I enjoyed your discussion on the subject.

[Brad Stark]

17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO It makes more sense that Tywin told Selmy to let Rhaegar win. It doesn't seem to fit Rhaegar's personality to order people to lose. I can't help but draw parallels to when Ned told Robert that people would let him win in order to get him to withdraw. Added to this was how easily Robert accepted Selmy into his own Kingsguard. Almost as if they had a prior relationship.

Rhaegar might be too honorable to cheat but certainly was too arrogant to believe he needs to.   I agree him fixing the tournament makes less sense than Tywin,  who not only had motive for the rebellion but may have wanted to embarrass Eli for marrying Rhaegar instead of Cersi.  Tywin could have known Rhaegar had a thing for Lyanna and chose winter roses to temp him even more to name her qolab.  

Makes sense, except why would Selmy lose on purpose for Tywin?  What could Tywin have offered or threatened to make him do something dishonorable?

[JNR]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

That's the illusion.  If that were truly the case, by now there would be greater consensus on Jon's parentage or Bran's would-be assassination, for example.

Well, we may soon find out, if GRRM is right that he'll finish TWOW this year.  The real problem there is that consensus is not reality. 

On Jon's parents, for instance, there is tremendous consensus.  Poll after poll after poll going back many years has RLJ at 90% among the online fans.  Every media analyst I know of -- NY Times, New Yorker, The Atlantic, Huffington Post, et al -- has lined up in support of RLJ.

But we may soon establish who solved the puzzle of Jon's parentage correctly in advance, and who did not.  Those who solved it correctly will still be correct, no matter the consensus in May 2017 and all prior years.  (Whether they did so in a coherent and logical manner will I suppose still be a matter of some debate.)

6 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I agree on the subtlety; I disagree about the fairness.

I don't know how you can do that without knowing the revealed solutions to the mysteries, though.  Wait and hear what GRRM has to say.

I suspected for years that the solutions to the Lost mysteries were never going to turn out to be satisfying or fair, and IMO, I was right.  By the same token, I think ASOIAF will turn out satisfying and fair... but of course, I could be wrong.

[Brad Stark]

I always suspected Rhaegar won unfairly.   He was a natural at learning to be a knight, but only started learning recently.  He'd never compete with the best if the best fairly. 

[ravenous reader]

13 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, we may soon find out, if GRRM is right that he'll finish TWOW this year.  The real problem there is that consensus is not reality. 

For sure, consensus is not reality.  Yet, I disagree that there is consensus.  If you look at the number of threads erupting in the forum on the subject in recent days alone, and review the array of dissenting opinions, it clearly reveals that readers don't have confidence in their own viewpoints, regardless of how passionately they defend those viewpoints.

Quote

On Jon's parents, for instance, there is tremendous consensus.  Poll after poll after poll going back many years has RLJ at 90% among the online fans.  Every media analyst I know of -- NY Times, New Yorker, The Atlantic, Huffington Post, et al -- has lined up in support of RLJ.

Just because I for example when pressed would cast my vote on the RLJ side, just because it's still the best possible, despite not being optimal 'fit', that doesn't mean however that I believe the mystery has been 'solved' to my satisfaction.  (It worries me for example that Lynn may be right about Bobby B and the 'Schmobert' hypothesis, LOL)

Quote

But we may soon establish who solved the puzzle of Jon's parentage correctly in advance, and who did not.  Those who solved it correctly will still be correct, no matter the consensus in May 2017 and all prior years.  (Whether they did so in a coherent and logical manner will I suppose still be a matter of some debate.)

How will you know you solved it correctly, if the writer persists with his equivocation, leaving everything ambiguous and nebulous, to the point where, as you've pointed out, you can't even prove 'conclusively' that Rhaegar and Lyanna were or weren't on the same continent?

[Greggles]

I wanted to read the entire thread before posting but time, laziness.

Following on from Black Crows theme of twinning, (er, looping, mirroring past and present) and comparing TKOTLT with Ser Loras' defeat of The Mountain.

Loras in his beautiful armour won through trickery: his mare was in heat (something he probably planned for) causing the Mountains horse to become unmanageable.  Mirroring and inverting this: Howland Reed, his craptacular armour rode against those three knights while Lyanna unbeknownst to him warged his opponents horses causing them to lose.  She's the mare in this case.

Howland gets his vengeance.  Lyanna the teenage she-wolf gets to have some fun. 

Feel free to tear this apart, but I think Occam is on my side.