Heresy 198 The Knight of the Laughing Tree

[LordBlakeney]

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

@LordBlakeney:  I think it's a case of 'nudge-nudge, wink-wink, say-no-more..!'  That's why I've compared it to a burlesque show, in which the strippers titillate, dangling the prospect of an answer, but never actually 'giving it up'...(this cockiness...forgive the pun...starts with GRRM, you realize; JNR and Voice are only following his example...so don't blame them). 

 

The difference being GRRM is the author of the story. He doesn't have pet theories. There are no mysteries to him. He controls everything.

He knows full well the truth of Jon's parentage. He has not revealed that to us yet, so we theorize. The cockiness is merited in his case; because everyone knows that he is obviously THE authority on the subject.

But people posting in a fan forum about his books are not his collaborators, they are no more privy to his secrets than the rest of us. We all have access to the same text. So if you want to be cocky about a theory, you better at least say what the theory is. Two names, @JNR. It's stupid to not just say who you think Jon's parents are if you have a theory. Two names.

[Black Crow]

But not tonight, for Heresy 198 is dead and Heresy 199 is open for business

[ravenous reader]

Just now, LordBlakeney said:

The difference being GRRM is the author of the story. He doesn't have pet theories. There are no mysteries to him. He controls everything.

Yeah, but he's still playing a game with us.  He withholds in order to stoke up the suspense!  Decades-long Robert-Frost-type striptease, I'm telling you -- are you up for it..?  

Just now, LordBlakeney said:

He knows full well the truth of Jon's parentage. He has not revealed that to us yet, so we theorize. The cockiness is merited in his case; because everyone knows that he is obviously THE authority on the subject.

But people posting in a fan forum about his books are not his collaborators, they are no more privy to his secrets than the rest of us. We all have access to the same text. So if you want to be cocky about a theory, you better at least say what the theory is. Two names, @JNR. It's stupid to not just say who you think Jon's parents are if you have a theory. Two names.

I don't think you can convince JNR to be explicit any more than GRRM -- Voice can be seduced, but not the other two.  All in due time!

Let's keep a sense of humor here -- I find it hilarious; so to quote Voice: 'LOL .'

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

And you were never on Sable Hall, as I recall... so you never read the major theories I did, in fact, publish and openly discuss there, that I never have published or discussed here.

I was on Sable Hall (which, up until this moment, I was mis-remembering as being named "The Black Lodge." Too much Twin Peaks on the brain, I guess), though I never post as frequently on the side forums as I do here; in any case, I did have an opportunity to read your theory of the Others.
 

2 hours ago, JNR said:

It's kinda funny in a way.  There's an RLJ regular who for years said the same things as Lord Blakeney: "You have no theories, you just want attention, you're a fraud, blah blah blah."   But lately, he dropped that.  His new line is: "You definitely have real and serious theories, but you don't respond well to criticism of them."   I mean, I have to laugh; the guy can't seem to make up his mind how best to attack me.

But you, Matthew, do have cred with me.  I know you to be a respectable, legit poster, and I can see the frustration is real.  So I'll tell you what: I will simply never refer to any unpublished idea or theory I have, on any ASOIAF subject.

Instead, I will just stick to throwing out new ideas, like the one about Lyanna/hostage/KG... or the one at the beginning of this thread edition, in which I pointed out that Meera and Jojen have different theories on the KotLT... and that Meera obviously thinks it was Howland... and only Jojen ever asks Bran about his father telling the story, because apparently he thinks it was Lyanna or another Stark.

Well, I'll start off by saying that I never believed you were a fraud. I have no idea what reasons you may have for what theories you do and do not share, but speaking for myself, I have a couple theories that I'll probably never put out there for public consumption; for one thing, putting together essays and all the accompanying citations is a chore, for another there's something a little vulnerable about inviting people into my thought processes, the way I interpret symbols, the way I emotionally engage with the text and the characters, and I'm not always comfortable going down that road.

With that in mind, I'm not trying to challenge you to put up your theories if you don't want to--I thought there were some issues raised over the last couple pages, such as what Rhaegar was really doing during his absence, that you might have been eager to dive into more thoroughly, without all of the RLJ distraction looming over the discussion.

I don't think you need to stop referencing your unpublished theories, but I think you can understand that, especially within this thread, it's difficult not to be a little disappointed by the dangling prospect of unexplored theories, or new perspective on well-worn subjects; for example, I love coming to Heresy for posts such as the one PrettyPig made in the previous thread about Littlefinger as the "dying prince" vision--a totally brilliant take on a vision that's been out there for discussion for almost 20 years at this point.

[Voice]

21 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Who physically picked the flowers and made the crown is irrelevant.  And these specific type of flowers could have been picked by chance, although that seems unlikely as they came from far away.

Again, your reliance upon fan theory, rather than canon, is showing through.

Winter Roses are grown in Winterfell in glass gardens.

Why would Starks require a greenhouse for plants that grow wild in their region?

I don't require glass gardens to grow California Poppies, for example, they sprout up every time it rains.

For all we know, Winter Roses sprout from Braavosi lemon trees.

 

21 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

 My suggestion is someone knew the story of Bael the Bard story, that Rhaegar would give them to Lyanna, and that it would insult the Starks, and specifically arranged for these flowers to be used.  It doesn't matter if Old Nan physically picked the flowers,  what matters is who told her to and why.

This is another flawed suggestion built upon the internet's story, rather than GRRM's story. Let me tell you why.

In our beloved (but less read) books, Rhaegar won the tourney fair and square, so far as we know. There is no plot to ensure his victory stated in the text.

Barristan seems to believe that he had a shot at winning the tournament, and had he been the victor, he would have given the crown of blue Winter Roses to Ashara Dayne.

Thankfully, Barry didn't win. (Surely, the image of Ashara wearing Lyanna's crown would have made people's heads explode. I think it would have looked better on Ashara than the 14 year old tomboy, but I'm an evil bastard.)

Certainly, the Bael-angle is plausible and the theory is worth discussing. But what frustrates me is rebuttals built upon internet speculations rather than canon. Pray don't take me wrong, we are here to speculate, and I enjoy doing so. But counterarguments built upon such speculations are far too easy to parry and dissemble.

 

19 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't have any text to support the roses only grow in Winterfell, nor do I think whether they do changes much about potential theories.  

Well, that correction certainly just changed your theory.

Sorry for giving you such a hard time, by the way. I mean you no ill.

I just found the original comment to be such a blind commitment to fanon that I felt the need to interject. This website has a way of canonizing fan fiction that is very unsettling for us book-thumpers. 

Please feel free to dismiss my protest and believing whatever story you like best. Life is here for us to savor, like Renly's peach.

 

19 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I assume since we know they are rare, they weren't chosen simply because they were growing by the hundreds around Harrenhal, and were a special request.   I completely agree they could have been chosen just to be extravagant, but if they were meant to deliberately insult the Starks,  we can infer a lot of interesting things. 

So long as you are aware and mindful that is (all) indeed an assumption on your part.

 

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Great questions Voice.I do think it was an attempt at a tease gone wrong.

I don't think it was an attempt at a tease at all, given Brad's defense (which was also laced with the same old non-canonical assumptions).

I don't mean to be a dick, and I apologize for how these words will appear on your various screens. But it is frustrating to watch the information GRRM actually published forgotten while reliance upon speculation increases and further obfuscates the cold hard canon.

I often forget how that element of the culture here at westeros.org exposes itself amid debate, and when I return, I can't help but be frustrated.

But again, please don't take that personally, @Brad Stark. Such is the very air we breathe in this place.

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, Voice said:

Barristan seems to believe that he had a shot at winning the tournament, and had he been the victor, he would have given the crown of blue Winter Roses to Ashara Dayne.

Barristan never mentioned that the crown was blue roses.

...If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Does anyone other than Ned recall the crown as being blue roses?

[wolfmaid7]

7 hours ago, JNR said:

Yep, that's a great point.  If asked, the huge majority of Westeros would agree Arya married Ramsay (if they knew anything at all).  But it would still not be remotely true. 

And if they were told "No, actually, Arya went on a fantastic journey in which she got a Faceless Man to murder multiple people for free, and then went to Braavos and trained to be a Faceless Man herself, all before she even hit pubert" they would laugh and say that was a crazy notion.  So much more complicated and unbelievable than the idea she was found and married the new heir to Winterfell. 

 

This goes to show how easy things could get muddled by what people think they know because someone somewhere said so.

Someone somewhere said Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna and that they were in the Dornish Mountains.

It also shows that the notion of an alternative or the alternatives to RLJ being to complicated to consider doesn't jive when this is exactly what we are given with Arya.

Yes it's easier to believe she is simply in WF married to Lord Ramsey.Off in Bravvos training to be a FM? Nahhhh.

So maybe Lyanna was with the dashing prince,or maybe she was concealed as a Fisherman's daughter,or a brother on the QI.

7 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Mostly, yes. Though we do have Cersei's attack on the Blue Bard with his hair scented in blue roses in Feast. Not to mention the Blue Bard's basic existence--he could have been anyone Cersei used--Martin made him Blue and Ros

 Family love is strong in a wolf pack. 

You're right--we're not far apart. I do think Rhaegar clearly ended up with Lyanna somehow.

Wouldn't it be bum luck if he happened on her just before she died and Rhaegar was just in the wrong place.

Though,i don't think Rhaegar ever saw her after the Tourney.His conversation with Jamie before he headed for the Trident is really off to me.If he had Lyanna or knew where she was,his circumstantial awareness seemed off.

He behaved more as if it was a rebellion he was going off to quell versus fight for the woman he loved.

And for someone so intelligent and so adept at being a warrior...If we believe the tales,you would think he would do what a few people did before him and challenge Robert for Lyanna.

4 hours ago, Voice said:

 

I don't think it was an attempt at a tease at all, given Brad's defense (which was also laced with the same old non-canonical assumptions).

I think much is being made about Rhaegar's character.I do think there's somethings that would be out of chatacter for him,but not this.

He is the type of guy that would characterise Jamie as "a crutch" to his face.

Either way you slice it he did publicly diss his wife and piss off his cousin and a noble house.These were the outcomes.What we are quibbling over is his reasons.Was it malicious, innocent,affectionate.

Then comes motives which can occur within varying degrees in the aforementioned.