Nymeria Reborn

[NorthGirl]

Maybe reborn is a strong word?

On 09/05/2017 at 6:14 PM, Annalee said:

I think there are two good candidates for Nymeria Reborn:  Arya and Daenerys

The Case for Arya Stark

The Starks lost the war and their home.  Nymeria the wolf is lost and she leads a pack of wolves in the riverlands.  Jon had a vision of a dead Arya clutching her toothpick blade.  I am predicting that Arya will die and warg into her wolf with her last heart beat.  She will live on as Nymeria the direwolf to lead her pack to safety while the Freys and their hunters are hot on their trail.  Where do they go?  I can guess at two locations that can provide safety from the Freys.

1. North.  The pack can go north.  This is foretold by Jojen Reed when he said the wolves will come again.  Arya will meet up with Jon.  Jon will be in the direwolf form and they can lead the pack beyond the wall.  This fulfills the original outline from the author.  Jon and Arya are destined to be together. 
2. East.  This is the opposite of the Rhoynish migration and it is a way to avoid the hunters.  The Step Stones will emerge as the ocean levels recede and the ice accumulates on the land.

The Case for Daenerys

Daenerys' adventures in Slaver's Bay is not paralleled in history.  She is a Moses figure who will lead the slaves and the children of the slaves out of Meereen.  Meereen and its pyramids is the analogue of Egypt.  Daenerys will break the harpy's resolve and the slaves will be free.  She will lead them west to build a new life.  They will meet resistance along the way but her people are the Chosen and they will find a new home mirroring what Nymeria did with her ten thousand ships.

I would not be very surprised if Dany is actually Dornish by blood.  There is room in the written text for Dany to be the daughter of Aerys or Rhaegar with a Dornish woman or Rhaella with a Dornish lover.  Was good Queen Rhaella getting it on with Lewyn Martell? 

For Arya: 1) I wasn't aware that he signed that letter a blood oath that contracted him to make it all come reality no matter what. 2) Besides the whole Arya dying thing, why does this scenario necessitate Arya being in Nymeria 24/7? Are we talking about Arya-inside-Nymeria doing all of this just to save wolves? Not people? Not her family? That's pretty fucking pointless. And why is Ghost so far south? Not saying George wasn't telling us anything about her character through her choice of name but I'm pretty sure it was reflecting that even unintentionally, she showed a tendency for unconventional behaviour. Honestly I'm not going to take the name choice to heart when GRRM was clearly still in his 'Arya is #notlikeothergirlsyall' phase of writing her.

For Dany: doesn't she mirror enough mythical figures? How does her being similar Nymeria change her story? There is nothing particularly deep in two female leaders in similar positions having to clear similar obstacles to reach similar goals as written by one author. And she does have dornish blood (Martells have married into the Targaryen line before and Aegon the V's mother or grandmother was a Dayne, I think) but I really don't think that means much. I think you are seriously missing the point if you think this series is about making one group of people the Chosen ones. 

I'm just not a big fan of the whole "find a parallel so we can deduce this character's endgame" method. It's boring. Yes, with how many historical figures and how much background he's created for the world, it's not unlikely that either of them will have an arc that ressembles a previously mentioned character but one for one comparisons feel very uninspired to me. Especially with Dany because she already is PtwP and/or AA, and echoes Aegon the Conqueros so how do we know which of the three (if we include Nymeria) her story will emulate the most? And I just don't think that Nymeria is that important to ASOIAF in general, there's a reason why we only learnt more about her in an ancillary world building material than in the actual series.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 14/5/2017 at 11:12 AM, Lord Wraith said:

Jon Stark as Night's King 2.0 confirmed and Val as Night's Queen... J/K.

Granted I think he and Val will help unite the North and the Wildlings at somepoint.

The bolded part is one of the reasons I believe that Val is Nymeria 2.0.

[Lord Wraith]

3 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

The bolded part is one of the reasons I believe that Val is Nymeria 2.0.

[Luddagain]

Seems to me pretty obvious that Arya will in some way parallel Nymeria - her wolf and she called herself Nan at one stage - short for Nymeria.

My own idea (maybe a bit fan fic) is that she WILL lead people home but in this case it will be Northern Wildings escaping slavery - the ones captured that Jon could not rescue. She may well bring other escaped slaves too. I suspect she will lead the Company of the Rose home to the North. If she follows the pattern of Nymeria she will marry three times and produce heirs. She is already a person of sexual interest to three - Gendry, Edrik and Jon.

[Luddagain]

Arya of course could well end up sitting on the IT.

I think she may well marry Gendry who has the strongest claim to the throne (after Dany). Or to be more precise

Targaryan heir is Dany and possibly other unknown Targs such as Aerion's son and the slow witted girl and possibly any heirs of Duncan and Jenny of Oldstones (who could of course INCLUDE the Starks)

The Baratheon heirs are obviously first Shireen, then Gendry, then Edrik, then Mya (assuming bastards get legitimised. Stannis would NOT care about birth status but he would care about birth order.

So Arya/Gendry match would see her on the IT.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

14 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

Gendry who has the strongest claim to the throne (after Dany).

Is this a joke?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

The way I see it Val's role to the Free Folk society is much more like Nym's than Arya's and Dany's role to their people. Arya is just the daughter of their Lord and the sister of their Lord, she wields no power of her own, Dany doesn't lead her people to safety, she leads them to their doom. Val on the other hand much like Nym leads them to their salvation. Also much like Nym, Val's title doesn't exist in Westeros. 

[Luddagain]

Doctor's consort

Yes of course I am and it is blindingly obvious.

Stannis may win the IT eventually (or possibly part of it). However he only has Shireen as heir and she is not likely to live a long time. He may well marry her to her cousin Edrik  in the hopes of an heir but if this fails  stannis is a stickler for the rules and he will favour the oldest of Robert's bastard (males) who is Gendry. Recall that Stannis made Davos a knight and his hand. He has faults but he can recognise strength, honour, loyalty and integrity regardless of birth. Recall how he reacted to Renley!!!.

If the bastards are legitimised then Stannis would make Gendry his heir. It is central to his personality and core beliefs.

[NorthGirl]

1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

Seems to me pretty obvious that Arya will in some way parallel Nymeria - her wolf and she called herself Nan at one stage - short for Nymeria.

My own idea (maybe a bit fan fic) is that she WILL lead people home but in this case it will be Northern Wildings escaping slavery - the ones captured that Jon could not rescue. She may well bring other escaped slaves too. I suspect she will lead the Company of the Rose home to the North. If she follows the pattern of Nymeria she will marry three times and produce heirs. She is already a person of sexual interest to three - Gendry, Edrik and Jon.

Really? Really? She's already a sexual interest to 5-years older Gendry, still a shy boy Eric and her closest brother? Well the chavracters in question, and the author, should learn this news because I don't think they know.

Seriously , are we living in parallel universe where ASOIAF is different?

[Drogonthedread]

Now when asked GRRm the author himself has said Daenerys is the character that resembles Nymeria most ..

So that should answer your questions OP

[The Fattest Leech]

6 hours ago, Drogonthedread said:

Now when asked GRRm the author himself has said Daenerys is the character that resembles Nymeria most ..

So that should answer your questions OP

Hmmm. Not sure which SSM you are referring to, but if it is this one, then what George stated is more about some attitudes rather than the entire archetype, and it was a comparison to other women in the book series as well (which is just after his answer where he admits not all book details have been nailed down at this point). George does not do straight one-to-one replays of the same story. Also this was in 1999, before he had written ASOS yet :

• Q: Also, just how much impact did the Rhoynar have on the modern customs of Dorne? Beyond the gender-blind inheritance laws, the couple of Rhoynish gods that smallfolk might have turned into saints or angelic-type beings, and perhaps the round shields, that is. In particular, given that Nymeria was a warrior-queen, is there a certain amazon tradition?

  GRRM: The Rhoynar did impact Dorne in a number of ways, some of which will be revealed in later books. Women definitely have more rights in Dorne, but I would not call it an "Amazon" tradition, necessarily. Nymeria had more in common with someone like Daenerys or Joan d'Arc than with Brienne or Xena the Warrior Princess.http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Answers_to_Old_Questions/

Now, fast forward eight years to 2007 and a few more books, and we have George tell us this about Daenerys:

• Cersei and Daenerys are intended as parallel characters --each exploring a different approach to how a woman would rule in a male dominated, medieval-inspired fantasy world.

This seems much closer to what we are seeing in the books currently. George has said that "characters change along the way," and also that Dany has accepted her Targaryen words of "Fire and Blood," which is literally against everything Nymeria and the Rhoynar stood for. Nymeria was escaping the Targs and their magic and fire and blood. I am not sure how much of historic Nymeria you have read about, but it seems that when George started to flesh Nymeria out around 2012, he decided to take the two character archetypes (Daenerys and Nymeria) in very different directions.

Now, maybe George picked one or two smaller details in the Nymeria archetype to have Dany replicate, but who knows what they are? It could be something as simple as Daenerys arriving in Westeros on "10,000 ships", but if Dany is also bring 10,000 sick and starving people, that will be certain doom for Westeros with everything else that is going on in the next two books. Maybe it was once that way for Dany, but it does not seem to be that way any longer.

[The Gizzard of Oz]

On 5/9/2017 at 6:14 PM, Annalee said:

Daenerys' adventures in Slaver's Bay is not paralleled in history.  She is a Moses figure who will lead the slaves and the children of the slaves out of Meereen.  Meereen and its pyramids is the analogue of Egypt.  Daenerys will break the harpy's resolve and the slaves will be free.  She will lead them west to build a new life.  They will meet resistance along the way but her people are the Chosen and they will find a new home mirroring what Nymeria did with her ten thousand ships.

Good observation.  Mereen is Egypt right down to the pyramids.  She is Moses and she will lead the slaves but perhaps not to the west.  No point in leading people to a land covered in ice.  She may take them to Vaes Tolorro and resettle them there after she gets back from Westeros and defeating the Others.  The Long Night will run its course and until then the only direction is east.

[Kaibaman]

57 minutes ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Good observation.  Mereen is Egypt right down to the pyramids.  She is Moses and she will lead the slaves but perhaps not to the west.  No point in leading people to a land covered in ice.  She may take them to Vaes Tolorro and resettle them there after she gets back from Westeros and defeating the Others.  The Long Night will run its course and until then the only direction is east.

Well not exactly. Moses freed the slaves and brought them out of Egypt while Dany freed the slaves and brought them into Meereen (while also freeing the slaves there).

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 5/9/2017 at 7:06 PM, Allardyce said:

Not true at all.  Dany plays the game of thrones as well as anyone.  She led her team to victory against Astapor and Yunkai.  She led her worn down Dothraki across the red waste to the safety of Vaes Toloro.  She outwitted the warlocks of Quarth and escaped the trap of the undying ones.  She is a much better leader than Jon and Robb..  I don't believe given the same resources any of those boys could have defeated the Yunkai sellswords with minimal loss of life.  Thousands of Robb's men got killed just to capture Jaime!  That's efficiency for you.

Wait, what? Best estimate is that Robb lost ~200 or so men (estimate to be fair) capturing Jaime and killed or captured 10x as many. OTOH Dany killed 200 or so with minimal effort. Opposition was It's a matter of end game. She got Yunkai and two sellsword companies.. He got Jaime, 100+ highborn captives, and an open path to RR. 

Frankly either are unqualified successes, with Robb's being more martially related and Dany utilizing bribery and political savvy alongside military force.

[Rondo]

On 5/21/2017 at 8:35 PM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Good observation.  Mereen is Egypt right down to the pyramids.  She is Moses and she will lead the slaves but perhaps not to the west.  No point in leading people to a land covered in ice.  She may take them to Vaes Tolorro and resettle them there after she gets back from Westeros and defeating the Others.  The Long Night will run its course and until then the only direction is east.

Dany is the female Moses in many ways and I can see why taking the people to the west is not going to work while the long night is in effect.  I would say leading the former slaves will happen after the defeat of the Others.  There's not enough time to work that into the plot.  I have always thought slavery is the work of a life time and while the war against slavery has started it will be many years before the masters and the traders are finally put out of business.  The role of Mhysa is not a passing phase and Dany has effectively chosen to accept the role.  Say the Others are defeated and the weather clears.  Most of westeros died.  There will be room for the former slaves to make their new home and Dany can start a new Targaryen dynasty.