Bakker XLIX - From Bashrags to Riches (No TUC Spoilers!)

[.H.]

19 minutes ago, Damelon said:

Sure, that's one aspect. Another is that you have been trying to track Bakker's narrative logic to explain these points, and you arrived at the same conclusion. Chicken and egg?

I'm more apt to cite priming, but indeed, "all roads lead to Rome."

It was pointed out to me that the What Comes Before... portion of the books tell us that "The fools discovered and awakened the last two surviving Inchoroi, Aurax and Aurang, who had concealed themselves in the labyrinthine recesses of the Ark."  However, this sounds to me like Mandate propaganda/the best they knew.

[Kalbear]

Finally we have a glimpse of the no God traveling through earwa 

 

[Damelon]

44 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Finally we have a glimpse of the no God traveling through earwa 

https://twitter.com/donie/status/863012338147971072

LOL - they should have brought some whirlwind-bushes to complete the picture.

[redeagl]

7 hours ago, Callan S. said:

I'm not sure why that shows the skin spies time of creation? Their deployment and infiltration, yes. It doesn't necessarily mean they were created at that point, though.

"“Because it means the Consult has mastered the Old Science. Sranc, Bashrags, Dragons, all the abominations of the Inchoroi, are artifacts of the Tekne, the Old Science, created long, long ago, when the Nonmen still ruled Eärwa. It was thought destroyed when the Inchoroi were annihilated by Cû’jara-Cinmoi—before the Tusk was even written, Kellhus! But these, these skin-spies are new. New artifacts of the Old Science. And if the Consult has rediscovered the Old Science, there’s a chance they know how to resurrect Mog-Pharau …”" (TWP, CH 2)

[Werthead]

Quote

 

Erlich Bachman as Mek.  TJ Miller was a senior at the college I went to when I was a freshman.  I tried out for his improv comedy group, made the final call- back.  My Seswatha at Dagliash moment was when I went out for the final try out and Miller pelted me with thirty partially empty beer cans as I waved a paper voodoo doll at him.  I clung to the podium but was unable to escape his aluminum onslaught.

 

The STSNBN shall now be known as The Aluminium Onslaught.

8 hours ago, .H. said:

By Akka's reckoning, after the end of the C-I War, it was:

But not all souls.  Cet’ingira remembered.  And I think that probably, in no small part, A&A were apt to remind him, probably back in Eärwa, their work being done in Eänna with Siöl likely destroyed, along with the other mansions, apart from Ishterebinth.  Emilidis was probably dead then too by some means, opening up more of a possibility to open the Ark back up again.

Emilidis was still going strong during the Nonmen Tutelage and founded the Mihtrul. The consensus seems to be that Emilidis was killed when the Mihtrul were wiped out during the Apocalypse.

[Kalbear]

13 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The STSNBN shall now be known as The Aluminium Onslaught.

Emilidis was still going strong during the Nonmen Tutelage and founded the Mihtrul. The consensus seems to be that Emilidis was killed when the Mihtrul were wiped out during the Apocalypse.

Not CockManity?

And I thought that in the False Sun there was a reference to Emidilis dying before Titirga. 

ETA: reading False Sun, this appears to not be the case - Emilidis gave the Diurnal to Titirga. 

This also gives credence to @.H.'s idea that the Inchoroi were off wandering about - because the barracades were Emilidis' last work, and we know that that didn't happen until much later than the Gates.

[Werthead]

There is some mores stuff in the glossary on the Day Lantern and its history (non-spoiler for TUC storyline):

 

Emilidis made the Day Lantern for Sin'niroiha, who used it to win the allegiance of Ishoriol and thus check Cu'jara Cinmoi and end the war between their mansions. It was later used during the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars to dismay the Sranc, who preferred to fight in darkness. The fate of the Day Lantern between the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars and Titirga getting hold of it is unclear; from the wording, it may have returned to Emilidis in Ishoriol after Sin'niroiha's death.

[Hello World]

http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/index.php?title=Sorcery&diff=12496&oldid=12453

Not sure who that is but I think if people wanted to go that in-depth they can look things up outside of the PoN wiki.

[Werthead]

22 minutes ago, Hello World said:

http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/index.php?title=Sorcery&diff=12496&oldid=12453

Not sure who that is but I think if people wanted to go that in-depth they can look things up outside of the PoN wiki.

That one's not on me.

[kuenjato]

24 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Not me!

Wert -- now that's you've had some time... where would you rank the books of TAE, favorite to least-favorite? And do you prefer PoN or TAE?

[Hello World]

27 minutes ago, Werthead said:

That one's not on me.

Yeah, I was pointing to the link with that emote not your post.

[Callan S.]

1 hour ago, redeagl said:

"“Because it means the Consult has mastered the Old Science. Sranc, Bashrags, Dragons, all the abominations of the Inchoroi, are artifacts of the Tekne, the Old Science, created long, long ago, when the Nonmen still ruled Eärwa. It was thought destroyed when the Inchoroi were annihilated by Cû’jara-Cinmoi—before the Tusk was even written, Kellhus! But these, these skin-spies are new. New artifacts of the Old Science. And if the Consult has rediscovered the Old Science, there’s a chance they know how to resurrect Mog-Pharau …”" (TWP, CH 2)

If I had the power of Kindle, I would find the quote from Aurang where he laments there being only so many skin spies left. I mean, we have a quote that refers to the idea of the Inchoroi being destroyed before the tusk was written...the tusk being an Inchoroi artifact! It's a POV working from limited information - Bakker does well at keeping character knowledge and his own knowledge separate. If you have Kindle powers, look up Aurang and phrases like 'so few left' or a sentence like that.

Edit: Never mind if Bakker really seperates character knowledge - the quoted character (Akka?) simply assumes, without doubt, the skin spies are new. When perhaps they've been working, undetected, for millennia?

[Werthead]

42 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

If I had the power of Kindle, I would find the quote from Aurang where he laments there being only so many skin spies left. I mean, we have a quote that refers to the idea of the Inchoroi being destroyed before the tusk was written...the tusk being an Inchoroi artifact! It's a POV working from limited information - Bakker does well at keeping character knowledge and his own knowledge separate. If you have Kindle powers, look up Aurang and phrases like 'so few left' or a sentence like that.

Edit: Never mind if Bakker really seperates character knowledge - the quoted character (Akka?) simply assumes, without doubt, the skin spies are new. When perhaps they've been working, undetected, for millennia?

There were thousands - maybe tens or even hundreds of thousands - of Inchoroi in the Ark, and only two left at the time the Tusk was given to Men, so I'd say that was a pretty accurate summation. The last two Inchoroi survived post-Isal'imial by hiding/fleeing and very rarely appearing to give battle (and nearly got offed several times, in The False Sun if Titirga hadn't been taken out so suddenly and during the First Apocalypse).

The overwhelming feeling from the books up to TGO is that the Inchoroi really aren't all that, certainly no more dangerous than a physically powerful Nonman Quya (which, to be fair, is pretty powerful).

Quote

 

Wert -- now that's you've had some time... where would you rank the books of TAE, favorite to least-favorite? And do you prefer PoN or TAE?

 

I'd have to reread but oddly I ended up thinking maybe The White Luck Warrior is the best and The Judging Eye is the worst. Not sure if I'd hold to that on a re-read though.

I think I prefer The Aspect-Emperor as a series overall. There's a lot more interesting stuff going on under the hood which is immediately understandable, whilst PoN was denser and required a lot more unpacking, and chunks of it didn't make much sense until TAE started coming out.

[Kalbear]

At least so far I'd say PoN ranks higher, simply because the characters are largely so much better. Cnaiur, Akka and Esme in PoN are much better than Sorweel, Kelmomas, Esme in TAE and Akka in TAE. Only Mimara is particularly compelling to me. And Conphas and Serwe were pretty decent, too. 

I think the pacing is a bit better. TGO felt like a slog at times with the Ordeal and the endless blah of them killing Sranc for hours and hours. I couldn't tell you how any of the battles really went in TAE, but I still have a pretty good idea of how the Mengedda and Shimeh battles went. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

At least so far I'd say PoN ranks higher, simply because the characters are largely so much better. Cnaiur, Akka and Esme in PoN are much better than Sorweel, Kelmomas, Esme in TAE and Akka in TAE. Only Mimara is particularly compelling to me. And Conphas and Serwe were pretty decent, too. 

I think the pacing is a bit better. TGO felt like a slog at times with the Ordeal and the endless blah of them killing Sranc for hours and hours. I couldn't tell you how any of the battles really went in TAE, but I still have a pretty good idea of how the Mengedda and Shimeh battles went. 

I'm quite fond of PoN myself. But, TUC could change that. As you said, the characters were a whole lot more interesting in the 1st series.

[akh]

The second series had more interesting guest stars though. Maithanet, Inrilatas, Theliopa, Koringhus, Cleric (probably missing some) were all enjoyable characters although they were all very brief. The first series didn't really have anyone like that. This reminds me - I wonder if we'll see Iyokus again.

[Hello World]

My guess is that Iyokus will reencounter Achamian at some point.

[Damelon]

9 minutes ago, Hello World said:

My guess is that Iyokus will reencounter Achamian at some point.

I'm also looking forward to another Iyokus engagement. He could perhaps offer some Daimotic support for the Golgoterath siege?

[Calibandar]

Characterization to me was better in Pon than in the first two AE books as well.

Particularly Kellhus, who is no longer a POV in the new series, is a loss for me in terms of characterization.

I never liked Achamanian and Esmenet so them continuing to be here whilst Cnaiur, Conphas, Serwe, Moenghus/Mallahet etc are gone, is another loss.

However Akh's point is entirely valid; AE has some supporting characters which are really interesting such as Kosotor, Cleric, Maithanet and Inrilatas, I found all of these quite excellent ( though Cleric was a little too nondescript and crypticly characterized for me, but I liked the idea if who he is and that he is still around). I am also intrigued by New Moenghus, Serwa, Kelmomas and Kayutas. so it's not as if AE has nothing good in this department, but it lost its main draw.

[Darth Richard II]

Did TUC just get pushed back a week on Amazon or am I mis-remembering things?