.H.

Bakker XLIX - From Bashrags to Riches (No TUC Spoilers!)

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, unJon said:

@Kalbear and @Happy Ent re: nuke. Just responding to one point in the old thread. There is a tremendous difference in how the kinetic energy of a nuke does damage between exploding above ground and below ground. Compression and channeling the energy matters. 

Analogy: imagine a firecracker going off in you open palm. It will burn you and it will hurt. Now imagine that same firecracker going off in your closed fist. You might lose some fingers or your hand completely. 

All Bakker threads should have michael bay references. +1

 

***

i am enamored of the idea that kalbear floated in the last thread that the nonmen are worse than the inchoroi.

what evidence do we have to support hat theory? Did the nonmen create damnation? How could we forget, cousin ?

the best evidence might be literary structure, where the prologue introduces us to the antagonist, not an inchoroi , but a nonman. 

Not just any non man, THE non man.

bakker may have been taking a cue from GRRM and felt like he had to establish the long term stakes of the series in the opening prologue, thus we encounter a non man.  This would indicate that the inchoroi are a red herring, a way to refocus the readers attention so that they redirect their attention away from the real antagonist, but when it is revealed they think, "fuck, it's been there all along in plain sight!"

Edited by lokisnow

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

If MacGyver was a rape demon who could only create sex dolls, this is what they'd be. 

I knew there was a reason I kept reading these books. :o

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

The 5 tribes was also, IIRC, a post-Shae move, so I don't think you can count that on the Inchoroi either.

No, no, Shaeönanra was (presumably) Umeri and born in 1086, the Breaking of the Gates was year Zero, so he was well after that.  Keep in mind too, he was the Grandvizier of the Mangaecca, a mannish Gnositic school.  Men didn't know the Gnosis until after the Nonmen Tutelage (555-825).

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Their response: "Pics or GTFO". 

At least they understand Rule 32. :laugh:

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I like the interpretation of the Inchy twins as a couple of engineering dorks who are hypercompetent within their spheres of influence, but totally hapless outside of them, and incapable of admitting it.

Aurang and Aurax are the Inchoroi Dinesh and Gilfoyle. It's canonical now.

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2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

"Sin-Pharion, Killer-Of-Hells, Most-Hentai of Swarm, Fuckchanter-of-highest-rank...Aurang...[…]

Thank you, Kalbear. That was funny.

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46 minutes ago, .H. said:

No, no, Shaeönanra was (presumably) Umeri and born in 1086, the Breaking of the Gates was year Zero, so he was well after that.  Keep in mind too, he was the Grandvizier of the Mangaecca, a mannish Gnositic school.  Men didn't know the Gnosis until after the Nonmen Tutelage (555-825).

Right, that's all the case. My understanding was that the Inchoroi had very little to do with the Men invading Siol and the breaking of the Gates; they were basically only responsible for the rewrite of the Tusk that caused the nonmen to be religiously cursed. Is there a source for them helping the Men take the gates?

38 minutes ago, Lies And Perfidy said:

I like the interpretation of the Inchy twins as a couple of engineering dorks who are hypercompetent within their spheres of influence, but totally hapless outside of them, and incapable of admitting it.

Aurang and Aurax are the Inchoroi Dinesh and Gilfoyle. It's canonical now.

That would be really awesome, especially with Shae as a very confused Gavin Belson.

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Erlich Bachman as Mek.  TJ Miller was a senior at the college I went to when I was a freshman.  I tried out for his improv comedy group, made the final call- back.  My Seswatha at Dagliash moment was when I went out for the final try out and Miller pelted me with thirty partially empty beer cans as I waved a paper voodoo doll at him.  I clung to the podium but was unable to escape his aluminum onslaught.

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Right, that's all the case. My understanding was that the Inchoroi had very little to do with the Men invading Siol and the breaking of the Gates; they were basically only responsible for the rewrite of the Tusk that caused the nonmen to be religiously cursed. Is there a source for them helping the Men take the gates?

That would be really awesome, especially with Shae as a very confused Gavin Belson.

Unfortunately, no, we don't know that they literally helped them break open the physical barriers, IIRC the dates line up to a time of the Second Investiture, so in theory, no Inchoroi should have been outside the Ark.  However, I have, at times, made the case that the circumstantial evidence point to significant Inchoroi intercession with the men of Eänna.  That evidence would be:

The highly convenient "appearance" of Husyelt to Angeshraël, who happens to show him something in a "fire" which leads him to want the same thing the Inchoroi want.

The presentation of the doctored Tusk (which we do actually know for a fact was made by the Inchoroi, a la TGO), which also conveniently tells men to do exactly what the Inchoroi want.

Angeshraël then convinces the Tribes to invade, which points out that it was not really something they were apt to do, but rather something he wanted them to do.  The fact that the Xiuhianni refused also bear this out.

It seems that all this is very implausible outside Inchoroi direction.

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3 minutes ago, .H. said:

Unfortunately, no, we don't know that they literally helped them break open the physical barriers, IIRC the dates line up to a time of the Second Investiture, so in theory, no Inchoroi should have been outside the Ark.  However, I have, at times, made the case that the circumstantial evidence point to significant Inchoroi intercession with the men of Eänna.  That evidence would be:

The highly convenient "appearance" of Husyelt to Angeshraël, who happens to show him something in a "fire" which leads him to want the same thing the Inchoroi want.

The presentation of the doctored Tusk (which we do actually know for a fact was made by the Inchoroi, a la TGO), which also conveniently tells men to do exactly what the Inchoroi want.

Angeshraël then convinces the Tribes to invade, which points out that it was not really something they were apt to do, but rather something he wanted them to do.  The fact that the Xiuhianni refused also bear this out.

It seems that all this is very implausible outside Inchoroi direction.

Yeah, that seems all reasonable. To add to this, apparently with the Tusk they were also given Chorae - and we know who had the bulk of the Chorae at that point:

"He went amongst the Five Tribes, declaring that beyond the western mountains lay a land of bounty and gift which was the rightful birthright of the Tribes. It was held by an accursed race of False Men whose extermination was called for by the Tusk itself. The False Men wielded great powers, but when the Tusk was delivered unto the Tribes certain "gifts" had come with it, metal spheres which would render these powers useless. Angeshraël's words spread amongst the Tribes and soon found great favour. He urged those who would follow him to gather on the slopes of Mount Kinsureah."

But the timing still seems really weird. At that point Emidilis had put up the Barrier around Golgotterath and only Aurax and Aurang remained. But the men don't invade for a while (I'm not sure how long). Who gave the tusk and the chorae? The only known ally at that point is Cetingra, and I guess that might make sense. 

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5 hours ago, .H. said:

plus fashion skin-spies (but that was probably post-Consult, so perhaps Shae's idea) that were pretty damn effective.

I'm pretty sure skin spies are actually sex dolls from before the Inchoroi ever crashed on Earwa. That's why they only have a limited number of them left.

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45 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

I'm pretty sure skin spies are actually sex dolls from before the Inchoroi ever crashed on Earwa. That's why they only have a limited number of them left.

Skin spies were first made 300 or 200 years before TDTCB.

 

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3 hours ago, redeagl said:

Skin spies were first made 300 or 200 years before TDTCB.

Where is that detail listed? I don't have a quote, but somewhere Aurang mourns how few skin spies are left. It sounded like more technology they had lost with arc fall.

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9 hours ago, lokisnow said:

All Bakker threads should have michael bay references. +1

 

***

i am enamored of the idea that kalbear floated in the last thread that the nonmen are worse than the inchoroi.

what evidence do we have to support hat theory? Did the nonmen create damnation? How could we forget, cousin ?

the best evidence might be literary structure, where the prologue introduces us to the antagonist, not an inchoroi , but a nonman. 

Not just any non man, THE non man.

bakker may have been taking a cue from GRRM and felt like he had to establish the long term stakes of the series in the opening prologue, thus we encounter a non man.  This would indicate that the inchoroi are a red herring, a way to refocus the readers attention so that they redirect their attention away from the real antagonist, but when it is revealed they think, "fuck, it's been there all along in plain sight!"

The biggest evidence against this is what we know of the damnation of, say, Kosoter vs. the damnation of Cleric. Cleric's mark was painful to stare at, but Kosoter was far worse via JE. And Cnaiur was the most damned person she's ever seen.

Kinda think we're done with the nonmen for a while.

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18 hours ago, .H. said:

I think it is easy to see the Inchoroi as whole incompetent, because, they have at times certainly been.  Aurang even laments how if Sil hadn't been such a hot-shot, they'd never have suffered the initial defeats they did.  They had no precedence for sorcery, so they never imagined anything could realistically stop them, even with a failing arsenal.

 

I remember something like this, what book was it in again that he recalls Sil?

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Posted (edited)

"After centuries of skirmishing with the Mandate, the Consult had simply disappeared. Vanished. No one knew why or how, though there had been endless speculation. Had they been destroyed by forces unknown? Had they annihilated themselves from within? Or had they simply found a way to elude the eyes of the Mandate? It had been three centuries since the Mandate had last encountered the Consult. For three centuries they had waged a war without a foe." From the beginning of TDTCB ( Ch 1) . It is why no one believed the Mandate cause.

Edited by redeagl

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13 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, that seems all reasonable. To add to this, apparently with the Tusk they were also given Chorae - and we know who had the bulk of the Chorae at that point:

"He went amongst the Five Tribes, declaring that beyond the western mountains lay a land of bounty and gift which was the rightful birthright of the Tribes. It was held by an accursed race of False Men whose extermination was called for by the Tusk itself. The False Men wielded great powers, but when the Tusk was delivered unto the Tribes certain "gifts" had come with it, metal spheres which would render these powers useless. Angeshraël's words spread amongst the Tribes and soon found great favour. He urged those who would follow him to gather on the slopes of Mount Kinsureah."

But the timing still seems really weird. At that point Emidilis had put up the Barrier around Golgotterath and only Aurax and Aurang remained. But the men don't invade for a while (I'm not sure how long). Who gave the tusk and the chorae? The only known ally at that point is Cetingra, and I guess that might make sense. 

I started a response last night, but I lost it, let me try to recreate my thought process.

I think it is unlikely that at the time of the Glamour being put over Golgotterath (the end of the C-I War) and the placing of the Barricades (perhaps soon after, perhaps at the same time, it's unclear) I think it is very unlikely that A&A were actually inside the Ark.  In fact, Akka relates to us that the Nonmen might have thought all the Inchoroi were dead, although the Glossary tells us they were simply, "hunting the last of the Inchoroi into the deep places of the earth."  Another spot liken the defeat as, "Inchoroi, whom they had driven to the four corners of the world in the days of Cu’jara Cinmoi."

In either case, we know that A&A survived and it is plausible that in the process of the Nonmen slogging through the Ark, A&A evacuate the place, realizing that the fight there was lost...for now and take refuge in Eänna.  I think either the Barricades are a ret-con, or simply the Nonmen thought all the Inchoroi were really dead or so broken, that simply hiding Golotterath would be an acceptable solution.  Only it wasn't, because A&A were still about, or so it certainly seems.  As such, Emilidis later came and put up the Barricades, to make sure they wouldn't get back in, even if they found it.

The circumstantial case seems plausible, someone was out there, crafting the Tusk, appearing to Angeshraël, distributing the Chorae, but more importantly formulating this plan.  I guess it is possible that this was done from inside the Ark, but that seems unlikely.  Also, it seems unlikely that it would be Cet’ingira who would do all that, since we know nothing of his knowing the Glamours, or in general being that crafty.

By Akka's reckoning, after the end of the C-I War, it was:

Quote

“Centuries later the Men of Eänna descended the Kayarsus, howling multitudes of them, led by their Chieftain-Kings—our fathers of yore. You know their names, for they’re enumerated in The Chronicle of the Tusk: Shelgal, Mamayma, Nomur, Inshull … They swept the dwindling Nonmen before them, sealing up their great mansions and driving them into the sea. For an age, knowledge of the Inchoroi and Min-Uroikas passed from all souls.

But not all souls.  Cet’ingira remembered.  And I think that probably, in no small part, A&A were apt to remind him, probably back in Eärwa, their work being done in Eänna with Siöl likely destroyed, along with the other mansions, apart from Ishterebinth.  Emilidis was probably dead then too by some means, opening up more of a possibility to open the Ark back up again.

Also plausible is that post-Breaking, A&A returned to find the Ark.  Thinking it was simply a glamour, they excavate, only to realize Emilidis wasn't so naive as to just hide the place, he sealed it.  There is a big time gap here, presumably from about 0-525, so what they were doing, I don't know, possibly exploring options on how to get in the Ark.  Possibly here is where they recruit Cet’ingira again, only to realize he isn't crafty enough, but maybe it is him who realizes who might be.  Men, if only they could be taught.

In any case, we do know that, interestingly enough, it was Cet’ingira who was chief among those who wanted to begin the Tutelage of men, saying: "Let me make a ministry of the wisdom we have purchased with our doom. For among them are souls as wise as our own.”  I think that fact that 252 years later it is he who shows the Mangaecca where the Ark is probably speaks to the duplicity in that statement.  Cet’ingira had already been corrupted by the Inverse Fire, he simply hadn't lost his mind completely.  Also plausible is that Aurang might have been whispering in his ear the whole time, hastening his fall into Erraticism.  The wisdom he was set to impart wasn't the wisdom of early Nonman culture, it was the wisdom of the Inverse Fire, that damnation was coming and unavoidable, but could be fought.

The Mangaecca would be an easy target to corrupt, as their desire for knowledge as power sets them up direct for a fall into the Inverse Fire trap.  Indeed, Cet’ingira was (from TFS):

Quote

This was what my master sought? To tear down the Barricades?”

And his masters before him,the Nonman replies.For more than two hundred years.”

He studies the mad Nonmen. “And what lies within?”

The black eyes did not waver. “The truth my brothers could not bear.”

Keep in mind, Shae was born in 1056, so this must be near 1100, so 200 years before that would be ~900, again a gap I can't account for from when Cet’ingira told them of the Ark's location in 777 until then.  But my guess is that the time there was spent excavating and attempting to asses how the Barricades could be defeated.  I just have a hard time thinking all this would be possible if at least one of the Inchoroi were no outside the Ark the whole time.

OK, probably enough of this wall-of-text for now.  I think there is a fair amount of circumstantial evidence one can build to show that possibly one or both of the A&A duo were outside the Ark at the time it was sealed.  In fact, we have zero evidence saying they were in it.  There is a little timeline "wiggle" that could probably accounted for should Bakker really want to, if he feels he needs to.

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22 minutes ago, redeagl said:

"After centuries of skirmishing with the Mandate, the Consult had simply disappeared. Vanished. No one knew why or how, though there had been endless speculation. Had they been destroyed by forces unknown? Had they annihilated themselves from within? Or had they simply found a way to elude the eyes of the Mandate? It had been three centuries since the Mandate had last encountered the Consult. For three centuries they had waged a war without a foe." From the beginning of TDTCB ( Ch 1) . It is why no one believed the Mandate cause.

I'm not sure why that shows the skin spies time of creation? Their deployment and infiltration, yes. It doesn't necessarily mean they were created at that point, though.

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2 hours ago, Calibandar said:

I remember something like this, what book was it in again that he recalls Sil?

TTT, chapter 11:

Quote

But for Sil’s impatience, he and his brothers would have won, and all this—this world—would be moot.
Driven from Min-Uroikas. Scattered. Hunted. So far they had dwindled!
And then, from nowhere, a second age of glory. Who would have guessed that the cunning of Men could resurrect their aborted designs, that the vermin could restore his destiny?

And duh, thanks for asking, because he Aurang plain just tells us he was driven out of the Ark at the end of the C-I War...should have looked this up first, before I raised a wall of circumstantial evidence.  But "such a wall..."

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1 hour ago, .H. said:

TTT, chapter 11:

And duh, thanks for asking, because he Aurang plain just tells us he was driven out of the Ark at the end of the C-I War...should have looked this up first, before I raised a wall of circumstantial evidence.  But "such a wall..."

Funny how the mind works, huh?

I'm curious how much of all this Inchoroi history will be filled in in TUC.

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2 minutes ago, Damelon said:

Funny how the mind works, huh?

I'm curious how much of all this Inchoroi history will be filled in in TUC.

I mean, I've read that quote probably a dozen times over the years.  Chances are it seeped into my mind, since my reasoning above is just a way to "prove" what I already knew...because I already read the answer numerous times.

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Just now, .H. said:

I mean, I've read that quote probably a dozen times over the years.  Chances are it seeped into my mind, since my reasoning above is just a way to "prove" what I already knew...because I already read the answer numerous times.

Sure, that's one aspect. Another is that you have been trying to track Bakker's narrative logic to explain these points, and you arrived at the same conclusion. Chicken and egg?

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