Bakker XLIX - From Bashrags to Riches (No TUC Spoilers!)

[.H.]

44 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

@.H. very interesting I agree with it except for kellhus knowledge of sranc. K is not prepared for sranc, does not even consider that an unknown footprint is their track because he assumes them mythical. If K is aware of sranc in theory then his dunyain intellect would decipher the track just as easily as it decodes every other new encounter.  And the nonman description is: another of leweths myths come true, but the only other thing he has encountered is sranc, so he thought them mythical. This means that the post hoc explanation of moenghus leaving because of sranc is a lie because he needs a story that is believable and he needs a story because he is hiding his own ignorance of why moenghus left.

A fair point and very plausible.  I do think that is what Kellhus was probably told, even if he never really bothered to deduce the logical holes in that explanation.

45 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

rather, I think koringhus and kellhus together give us clues to moenghus, the three of them experienced things beyond the ken of the dunyain, and moenghus as he eventually deduced he was not delusional, knew he would be killed if others discovered what he was learning or believing or discovering (in other words the beginnings of the TTT came to moe while he was in Ishual and caused him to leave).

i think moe, without any apparent external motivation observed by the other dunyain, just got up and walked out one day. This unpredictable event was so terrifying that none dared follow him. Since they had thirty years of unmolested peace they assume he perished, but they are ignorant of the why's of his leaving. His return in sorcerous dreams facilitated their reaction, which is to order his death--this means if he has ever left and returned he would be killed or have to die, so he never left and returned never was exiled by others he exiled himself by simply walking out--no drama. And the dunyain were too paralyzed by the novelty of this to react.

Well, I don't think Scott was lying in his answer to my question, even if he was evading most of it and gave a indirect anwser.  Had Moe not left in the first place, for whatever reason, then there wouldn't be an issue of his return.  So, while you might be correct, that he walked out under his own volition, in the first place, I don't think that was the last they heard from him.

Perhaps then it would be reasonable to surmise that Moe left under some auspices of "discovering more" or some such.  This would square with the "Anasûrimbor as prodigies" aspect of things, since he likely achieved all he could in the confines of Ishuäl and sought new domains.

The highlight of my theory could then remain intact.  It was more all that he experienced that made him unfit for staying within Ishuäl afterwards though, less about any knowledge.

[lokisnow]

19 minutes ago, .H. said:

A fair point and very plausible.  I do think that is what Kellhus was probably told, even if he never really bothered to deduce the logical holes in that explanation.

Well, I don't think Scott was lying in his answer to my question, even if he was evading most of it and gave a indirect anwser.  Had Moe not left in the first place, for whatever reason, then there wouldn't be an issue of his return.  So, while you might be correct, that he walked out under his own volition, in the first place, I don't think that was the last they heard from him.

Perhaps then it would be reasonable to surmise that Moe left under some auspices of "discovering more" or some such.  This would square with the "Anasûrimbor as prodigies" aspect of things, since he likely achieved all he could in the confines of Ishuäl and sought new domains.

The highlight of my theory could then remain intact.  It was more all that he experienced that made him unfit for staying within Ishuäl afterwards though, less about any knowledge.

In your link he says pretty clearly moe was not allowed back in. For whatever reason moe left he left.

but he was not allowed back in for a trial or discussion of possible exile or for hearing an intelligence report or anything else. Scott says he wasn't let back in . 

Which means he didn't leave to gather a report on sranc movements and return with said report as has been alleged.

his second comment says, paraphrased"you're making a lot of assumptions" but doesn't directly answer any of your points other than a bizarre digression stating that moe would have no difficulty killing himself.

 

[.H.]

1 minute ago, lokisnow said:

In your link he says pretty clearly moe was not allowed back in. For whatever reason moe left he left.

but he was not allowed back in for a trial or discussion of possible exile or for hearing an intelligence report or anything else. Scott says he wasn't let back in . 

Which means he didn't leave to gather a report on sranc movements and return with said report as has been alleged.

his second comment says, paraphrased"you're making a lot of assumptions" but doesn't directly answer any of your points other than a bizarre digression stating that moe would have no difficulty killing himself.

Yeah, I think his second comment only serve to point out that for whatever reason, pre-leaving or post, Moe was regarded as their better.

But if he wasn't let back in, he must have returned?  So, he did come back and they said no.  That does sort of work to confirm he might have just gone AWOL in the first place, but my feeling is that Moe left Ishuäl twice.  Once, for whatever reason and upon return, was denied entry.

I just have a hunch that it wasn't so simple as them just saying, "no, you have been in the world, you can't come back" though.  If they permanently exiled him based off his experience, they must have learned something of it though?

Unless of course it was part of the Pragma's own plan, send him out, let him see what he could do, then deny him reentry, knowing full well he would have to go out and seek domination.

[lokisnow]

Well this is all assuming they have a concept of exile. They ought not to. 

i just presume he left and never returned because he knew either he wouldn't be let in or would be murdered or required to suicide.

"when the thought first came to me I was quite unprepared"

the only time we have seen kellhus unprepared was initially leaving Ishual, if the thought first began to come to moe while he was in Ishual, that would explain why he describes himself as unprepared.

moe left platos cave, he would naturally be unable to convince any cave residents of the world outside it.

[unJon]

1 hour ago, lokisnow said:

Well this is all assuming they have a concept of exile. They ought not to. 

i just presume he left and never returned because he knew either he wouldn't be let in or would be murdered or required to suicide.

"when the thought first came to me I was quite unprepared"

the only time we have seen kellhus unprepared was initially leaving Ishual, if the thought first began to come to moe while he was in Ishual, that would explain why he describes himself as unprepared.

moe left platos cave, he would naturally be unable to convince any cave residents of the world outside it.

Or he left to kill sranc or some other reason and was supposed to kill himself when it the mission ended. Instead he shocked everyone by coming back. So they didn't let him back in. 

[Callan S.]

13 hours ago, redeagl said:

Exactly! 

By the way, I didn't find your quote with Aurang lamenting about the Skin spies BUT since they didn't have an entry in the TTT glossary, I am sure they will have one in the TUC one, and you will see for yourself 

If I had kindle powers I'd go search it now. I tried some google. I wish I'd taken a note - at best these days I start folded the corner of a page to mark it to keep track of some statement.

Oh, look what I found! I'm not the only one to remember!

[.H.]

4 hours ago, Callan S. said:

If I had kindle powers I'd go search it now. I tried some google. I wish I'd taken a note - at best these days I start folded the corner of a page to mark it to keep track of some statement.

Oh, look what I found! I'm not the only one to remember!

Quote

“Is it near, Old Father?” the other, Maörta, exclaimed. “Does it come?”

He regarded the piteous thing, his wretched instrument. And so few of them remained

Chapter 11, TTT.

I never did buy the Mandate idea that Skin-spies are all that new.  There is this quote, from Chapter 1 on Darkness:

Quote

“What are you?” Geshrunni cried through bloodied lips.

As the shadow of the fat man encompassed him, Geshrunni watched his round face loosen, then flex as tight as a beggar’s hand about copper. Sorcery! But how could it be? He holds a Chorae—

“Something impossibly ancient,” the abomination said softly. “Inconceivably beautiful.”

Impossibly ancient sure seems like a long time, not something new.  Of course, impossibly ancient could just means several hundred years, I guess.  But if they are new, why can't they make more?  Or was it a limit of the proper material?

[unJon]

1 hour ago, .H. said:

Chapter 11, TTT.

I never did buy the Mandate idea that Skin-spies are all that new.  There is this quote, from Chapter 1 on Darkness:

Impossibly ancient sure seems like a long time, not something new.  Of course, impossibly ancient could just means several hundred years, I guess.  But if they are new, why can't they make more?  Or was it a limit of the proper material?

Also in TTt they get referred to as Keepers of the Inverse Flame (later changed to fire). That sounds like a job description that could go back far in time.  

[.H.]

23 minutes ago, unJon said:

Also in TTt they get referred to as Keepers of the Inverse Flame (later changed to fire). That sounds like a job description that could go back far in time.  

No, it is the Inverse Fire there.  In fact, the only reference to anything Inverse at all:

Quote

They called themselves the Last Children of the Inchoroi, though they were loath to speak of their “Old Fathers.” They claimed to be Keepers of the Inverse Fire, though the merest question regarding either their “keeping” or their “fire” pitched them into confusion. They never complained, save to say they hungered for unspeakable congress, or to insist they were falling—always falling.

Also, something fuctions as surrogate souls for them:

Quote

All of it, from its anus to the sham it called its soul, was bent to the ends of its creators.

Might this be the Inverse Fire?  In the same manner of how Wutteät is said, "Hell sustains him from within."

Note that Cnaiür says about the skin-spies:

Quote

They carried, Cnaiür could see, the spark of the void within them. Like the Sranc.

So, perhaps, in a way that Inverse Fire is something within all of the Tekne creations.

I had this idea a few years ago, that perhaps the IF could function as a crude replacement of a soul.

Thinking about it more now, what if the line of wretches being fed into the the Golden Room is made to feed the Inverse Fire to stoke it?  I'm unsure why it would need to be stoked though, but perhaps, in the same way that the 100 derive sustenance from souls, the Inverse Fire "burns" with the "heat" of damnation.

[unJon]

It's "inverse flame" in my TTT trade paperback. 

[.H.]

33 minutes ago, unJon said:

It's "inverse flame" in my TTT trade paperback. 

Hmm, interesting, it's been ages since I actually cracked open my paper copies.  I have a hardcover TTT, first edition, so that one probably says Flame too.

[lokisnow]

4 hours ago, .H. said:

No, it is the Inverse Fire there.  In fact, the only reference to anything Inverse at all:

Also, something fuctions as surrogate souls for them:

Might this be the Inverse Fire?  In the same manner of how Wutteät is said, "Hell sustains him from within."

Note that Cnaiür says about the skin-spies:

So, perhaps, in a way that Inverse Fire is something within all of the Tekne creations.

I had this idea a few years ago, that perhaps the IF could function as a crude replacement of a soul.

Thinking about it more now, what if the line of wretches being fed into the the Golden Room is made to feed the Inverse Fire to stoke it?  I'm unsure why it would need to be stoked though, but perhaps, in the same way that the 100 derive sustenance from souls, the Inverse Fire "burns" with the "heat" of damnation.

The wretches are being shuffled through to look at the fire, perhaps that suggests that the inchoroi are sifting humanity, they don't necessarily have to be stoking it.

the skin spies are probably just sex dolls, they can change faces to please their masters, not for spying. and no one considered weaponizing them for a long time.

[.H.]

13 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

The wretches are being shuffled through to look at the fire, perhaps that suggests that the inchoroi are sifting humanity, they don't necessarily have to be stoking it.

Perhaps then supporting the idea that it takes are particular sort of soul to animate the No-God then.

15 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

the skin spies are probably just sex dolls, they can change faces to please their masters, not for spying. and no one considered weaponizing them for a long time.

This seems plausible, or they took a blue-print for something like that and weaponized it.  But dwindling numbers still would seem to indicate they couldn't really be too newly made.

[Werthead]

Quote

By the way, I didn't find your quote with Aurang lamenting about the Skin spies BUT since they didn't have an entry in the TTT glossary, I am sure they will have one in the TUC one, and you will see for yourself

Nope, actually. Odd.

[Kalbear]

whoops

[Madness]

The Evil is a Matter of Perspective anthology by Grimdark Magazine (earlier e-book) has been released. This includes the new Atrocity Tale by Bakker, The Carathayan, and an introductory essay titled The Goodness of Evil.

E-books have been sent to kickstarter backers.

EDIT: I guess, the amazon date updated to May 24, 2017.

[Darth Richard II]

7 minutes ago, Madness said:

The Evil is a Matter of Perspective anthology by Grimdark Magazine (earlier e-book) has been released. This includes the new Atrocity Tale by Bakker, The Carathayan, and an introductory essay titled The Goodness of Evil.

E-books have been sent to kickstarter backers.

Wow, that is a mostly good collection.

[unJon]

29 minutes ago, Madness said:

The Evil is a Matter of Perspective anthology by Grimdark Magazine (earlier e-book) has been released. This includes the new Atrocity Tale by Bakker, The Carathayan, and an introductory essay titled The Goodness of Evil.

E-books have been sent to kickstarter backers.

EDIT: I guess, the amazon date updated to May 24, 2017.

Sweet!

[Darth Richard II]

36 minutes ago, Madness said:

The Evil is a Matter of Perspective anthology by Grimdark Magazine (earlier e-book) has been released. This includes the new Atrocity Tale by Bakker, The Carathayan, and an introductory essay titled The Goodness of Evil.

E-books have been sent to kickstarter backers.

EDIT: I guess, the amazon date updated to May 24, 2017.

Mine says June 16th

[Madness]

Sorry, mine auto-updated to .ca.

EDIT: Weird. I get no date on .com and the 24th on .co.uk.

Also, at that second link you can read Bakker's introductory essay in the preview. (I think Hello World might've tipped me off to that in the first place).