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U.S. Politics: Moscow on the Potomac


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Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just on the Israel thing. For anyone to suggest that Trump is souring relations with Israel more than Obama did is laughable.

No one said that, so I think we're all good.

 

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12 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just note the immense difficulty Trump has experienced in attempting to warm relations with Russia. I'm convinced that is a fundamental reason for the massive behind the scenes campaign to undermine him. There are a lot of interests that don't want warmer relations with Russia. And are applying  tremendous pressure to tie Trump's hands in any attempts to do so.

Well, part of that is that Russia proceeded to attack the US infrastructure and systems in a profound way. They're also literally arming people who are killing our soldiers. Oh yeah, and they invaded a country. There are a lot of interests that don't want warmer relations with Russia because Russia continues to fuck with us over and over

4 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Well it shouldn't be done without good reason, it definitely shouldn't be done often, and if it is done, it should remain a secret for as long as possible. So yeah, it no doubt shows just how bad Trump's judgment is.
I'm sure Israel can take one for the team though, it's not like they've always been honest and fair with the US as far as intelligence goes... Not to mention the fact that Israel no doubt selects the intel it gives the US very carefully in the first place.
In fact, of all allies to burn, Israel may be the best by far, as they need the US in the Middle-East anyway. Which, as has been said, might suggest it really wasn't actually Israel. :D

As far as I can tell this was not any of the 'good' parts of that paragraph. I'm sure Israel is very careful about their intel, and I'm not thrilled with them as an ally, but I also don't like killing intel assets in ISIS. 

4 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Yeah, the leak no doubt happened because Trump wouldn't admit that giving such intel to the Russians was crazy.
The problem is, constantly reminding the world just how terrible a president Trump is won't help the US on the international stage.

I don't think that the US press needs to remind anyone about how crazy Trump is. 

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5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

No one said that, so I think we're all good.

 

Snide comment aside, my point was that there is NO danger of Trump alienating Israel, because Israel will accept a lot more from Trump than just burning a random intelligence source. Because the improvement in relations under Trump compared to his predecessor has been immense and he is a massive asset to them. They are not going to try and embarrass him in public.

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Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

Snide comment aside, my point was that there is NO danger of Trump alienating Israel, because Israel will accept a lot more from Trump than just burning a random intelligence source. Because the improvement in relations under Trump compared to his predecessor has been immense and he is a massive asset to them. They are not going to try and embarrass him in public.

Sure, but they're also not going to provide intel sources like that to us if we end up getting them killed. No intel organization worth its salt is going to do that - and Israel is by all accounts as good as they come. 

I doubt that Israel is going to become our enemy any time soon. I also doubt that they're going to share Code Word level intel with the US any time soon. And that's kind of a major deal. 

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2 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

There Israeli no way to be certain whether or not this true. 

How do you live with yourself? :P

1 hour ago, Fez said:

 Republicans can do math,

Now that is a bold statement...

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3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

It's within his granted powers - just like the lawfare blog says, it's also within his powers to post the nuclear codes on a post-it note, and it's within his powers to order a first nuclear strike on, say, Madagascar. Those are all powers he has. What this violates is the code to 'protect and defend the US' oath he took. 

Thanks for that correction.

One caveat question though. Did the President actually declassify anything here, and if so, couldn't be easily obtained by a FOIA request?
 

Quote

"Trump surely would not concede that the information in question is now ‘unclassified’ and available to anyone who files a FOIA request," she said. "The relevant question, therefore, is not whether the president can spontaneously declassify information, but whether the president is permitted to disclose sensitive national security information to anyone he wishes."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/

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1 minute ago, WinterFox said:

Now that is a bold statement...

Hence my qualifier restricting that statement only to electoral maps.

Anyways, that's a hell of a bombshell the New York Times has now. That's what, a half dozen bombshells the past week? I've kinda lost track.

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And what difference does will this bombshell make?  Conservatives all over the country are performing the same intellectually bankrupt mental gymnastics as conservative posters here.  American conservatives are spineless, they stand for nothing.

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I'm interested in the Democrats end game in their war on Trump. What is their strategy beyond impeaching him? Is it just a personal vendetta? Do they think that life under Mike Pence will be preferable, from a liberal point of view?

Or do they think Trump the Terrible presents a greater threat to them in the next presidential election than Pence or another candidate does? Is their best course of action not to let Trump continue making mistakes, gifting them the White House in 4 years time?

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41 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Because the US is safest against terrorism when working TOGETHER with Russia to combat it, rather than against them. The anti-Russia camp is mostly against Russia not to limit US exposure to terrorist threats, but because of a variety of ideological differences they have with Russia. If safety from terrorism was the top priority, then a  US-Russia alliance against terrorism would make both countries safer, rather than more vulnerable.

 

Is preventing one hypothetical attack worth ruin relations with several allies who are constantly helping the U.S. to prevent terrorist attacks? That's the key question.

29 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just note the immense difficulty Trump has experienced in attempting to warm relations with Russia. I'm convinced that is a fundamental reason for the massive behind the scenes campaign to undermine him. There are a lot of interests that don't want warmer relations with Russia. And are applying  tremendous pressure to tie Trump's hands in any attempts to do so.

I actually think you could find broad support for warming relations with Russia. But the problem is under what conditions, and many fear that Trump will give Putin the hen house in exchange for an egg. 

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Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm interested in the Democrats end game in their war on Trump. What is their strategy beyond impeaching him? Is it just a personal vendetta? Do they think that life under Mike Pence will be preferable, from a liberal point of view?

Or do they think Trump the Terrible presents a greater threat to them in the next presidential election than Pence or another candidate does? Is their best course of action not to let Trump continue making mistakes, gifting them the White House in 4 years time?

I think I've read / heard several left-leaning people say they would take Pence over Trump right now if they could. So yeah, I think the end game is just to get Trump out because they see him as a monumentally bad, incompetent and potentially (or actually now) dangerous POTUS. I think Democrats would still see President Pence as a bad president, but probably not dangerous.

I would think that Democrats right now think they have a very good chance against Trump in 2020, so I don't they want him gone because he would be harder to beat than any other president. If Pence became president this year then he'd have 3 years to right the ship from a PR perspective, but largely continue the course from a policy perspective.

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4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm interested in the Democrats end game in their war on Trump. What is their strategy beyond impeaching him? Is it just a personal vendetta? Do they think that life under Mike Pence will be preferable, from a liberal point of view?

Presumably the end game would be to paint all Republicans as so incredibly complicit in the corruption, graft and malfeasance of Trump that none of them can be trusted, and for a sea change to happen in all bodies of government. Pence is considered to be significantly more preferable in that he is at least not going to get us into a major war because he wants to impress some diners at Mar-A-Lago. 

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Or do they think Trump the Terrible presents a greater threat to them in the next presidential election than Pence or another candidate does? Is their best course of action not to let Trump continue making mistakes, gifting them the White House in 4 years time?

I think for a whole lot of people the threat is far more immediate. I know for a fact this is how several of my friends see it. That this isn't just because they don't like Trump; this is because they are actively fearful of a loss of US democracy under Trump. In that vein it has nothing to do with long-term political strategy. 

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9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm interested in the Democrats end game in their war on Trump. What is their strategy beyond impeaching him? Is it just a personal vendetta? Do they think that life under Mike Pence will be preferable, from a liberal point of view?

Or do they think Trump the Terrible presents a greater threat to them in the next presidential election than Pence or another candidate does? Is their best course of action not to let Trump continue making mistakes, gifting them the White House in 4 years time?

Doing the right thing. Nothing Trump is doing now is good for the country and that ignores everything potentially criminal with Russia.

I don't want Pence but there is no way I'd value the erosion of our government and credibility just to keep him out of the presidency.

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11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm interested in the Democrats end game in their war on Trump. What is their strategy beyond impeaching him? Is it just a personal vendetta? Do they think that life under Mike Pence will be preferable, from a liberal point of view?

Pence would actually be worse, specifically on a lot of social issues. But most liberals would say that's a fair trade to have a sane* adult at the helm.

*Relatively speaking. 

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14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm interested in the Democrats end game in their war on Trump. What is their strategy beyond impeaching him? Is it just a personal vendetta? Do they think that life under Mike Pence will be preferable, from a liberal point of view?

Or do they think Trump the Terrible presents a greater threat to them in the next presidential election than Pence or another candidate does? Is their best course of action not to let Trump continue making mistakes, gifting them the White House in 4 years time?

Not a Democrat,  so can't answer the question posed,  but the "end game"  for millions of people is removing a completely incompetent, morally bankrupt, self absorbed man-child from the highest office of power. 

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3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm interested in the Democrats end game in their war on Trump. What is their strategy beyond impeaching him? Is it just a personal vendetta? Do they think that life under Mike Pence will be preferable, from a liberal point of view?

Or do they think Trump the Terrible presents a greater threat to them in the next presidential election than Pence or another candidate does? Is their best course of action not to let Trump continue making mistakes, gifting them the White House in 4 years time?

From an outsider's point of view, life under Mike Pence at least wouldn't entail fear of the US president launching nuclear war or blatantly sharing our intel with Russia on a whim. So, yes, I'd rather live with Mike Pence's dominionism than risk nuclear apocalypse or an increase of terrorism in these parts of the world, thank you very much.

Oh, and since we're discussing the possible end of the world, I'd like to end on a lighter note:

What do you call four male dropbears sitting on a horse?

Spoiler

The Four Horsemen of the Eucalypse.

... I'll see myself out.

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