Video Games- Mess Effect: Andromeda

[briantw]

2 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

Funny you say this, I was thinking the whole game might look like that area. After I posed last night, I opened a new area--kind of a woodsy area, and my interest sky rocketed!

Though, I have a pet-peeve with this metroidvania tag on so many games. These are metroid games, no? Metroidvania, to my mind, would have leveling up and more RPG elements like Symphony of the Night. Oh well.

Metroidvania is a pretty generic term used to describe pretty much any game that falls into that 2D combat/platforming style.

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, briantw said:

Metroidvania is a pretty generic term used to describe pretty much any game that falls into that 2D combat/platforming style.

I would add exploration and "backtracking once you have new items/abilities" to the definition. RPG elements are not a requirement. They make it more interesting, but Metroid games have never had them and the early Castlevania games didn't either. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Yet Metroidvania seems to have been coined with Symphony of the Night--it's the game that really gave birth to the term. Doesn't matter. Some of us prefer the RPG elements, and we grew up on Metroidvania being Symphony of the Night-esque. These new games are definitely Super Metroid, and that's about it. Just a pet peeve. Not much you can do about words changing meaning. 

[Pliskin]

I fail to see how the word could have changed meaning with "Metroid" clearly apparent in the term from the start... It was never about RPG, but for 2D platformers with reexploration of the map and unlocking new sections. If there was a change of meaning, it's rather to include also non 2D platformers.

[Werthead]

On 05/07/2017 at 9:23 PM, KiDisaster said:

Debate settled. FF9 is the greatest

Sakaguchi has a great sense of humour. "Final Fantasy II? That doesn't EVEN MAKE SENSE!"

[Jace, Extat]

I think I'm gonna give Europa Universalis 4 another spin. I've been watching a dude do an Eastern Roman play through and I wanna do that. 

I think I'll try to create Spain first though, figure out the details of the game. Saving Constantinople will be no mean feat.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

7 hours ago, Pliskin said:

I fail to see how the word could have changed meaning with "Metroid" clearly apparent in the term from the start... It was never about RPG, but for 2D platformers with reexploration of the map and unlocking new sections. If there was a change of meaning, it's rather to include also non 2D platformers.

I think you're being obtuse because I upset you in the Castlevania thread, but just in case, here is a nice wiki on it: Metroidvania.

Specifically important: 

RPG Elements

Metroidvania video games typically take the Metroid formula a step further, allowing the player to gain levels and advance their character's statistics through the defeat of enemies in a manner most commonly found in a console rpg. This was introduced in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night and all subsequent 2D Castlevania games have followed this trend until the WiiWare release Castlevania The Adventure Rebirth.

 

 

And that's all I said. It's a minor pet peeve in how Metroidvania's have lost this aspect over the years. "Metroid" may be apparent in the term, yes, but so is "vania." While many aspects have remained, all I wanted to say is my favorite aspect has largely been eschewed in the PC years. I'm sorry you fail to understand this nuance.

[Pliskin]

1 hour ago, Simon Steele said:

I think you're being obtuse because I upset you in the Castlevania thread, but just in case, here is a nice wiki on it: Metroidvania.

Huh, no, you didn't upset me at all. It's not in my habit to bring off-topic considerations to a specific discussion.

And I'm sorry but your link fails to state your point. It precisely says that the RPG elements are not what defines a Metroidvania game. It's inclusive to both RPG and non-RPG. But whatever, sorry to bother you with this.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

16 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

Huh, no, you didn't upset me at all. It's not in my habit to bring off-topic considerations to a specific discussion.

And I'm sorry but your link fails to state your point. It precisely says that the RPG elements are not what defines a Metroidvania game. It's inclusive to both RPG and non-RPG. But whatever, sorry to bother you with this.

RPG Elements

Metroidvania video games typically take the Metroid formula a step further, allowing the player to gain levels and advance their character's statistics through the defeat of enemies in a manner most commonly found in a console rpg. This was introduced in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night and all subsequent 2D Castlevania games have followed this trend until the WiiWare release Castlevania The Adventure Rebirth.

[Pliskin]

Ok, now, I admit, you're starting to upset me

Given the level (copy-pasting the same thing over and over as if your interlocutor doesn't read), I won't bother next time. Cheers.

[briantw]

I think my favorite thing about playing Darkest Dungeon is those moments where the game lulls you into a false sense of security, then mercilessly bends you over and fucks you hard.  

I did a level three boss mission, the Swine King.  I essentially just destroyed him.  Took almost no damage.  Just an easy, quick encounter.  Fool that I am, I decided to continue my way through the dungeon to make a little extra money.  Left the boss room and a random fight appeared in the hallway I entered.  Three wretches, I thought.  No big deal, I thought.  All three of them target my Arbalest with their vomit attack.  She gets three fucking diseases in a row.  All of them awful.  

Oh, it's all uphill from there, I thought.  Next fight...four bloodsucker enemies from the Crimson Court DLC.  Suddenly, two of my characters now have the Crimson Curse, one of whom is the fucking Arbalest who is already suffering from every goddamn disease known to man.  I then walk by a food cart, and in my inventory I have the herbs that will cleanse it and make it safe to use.  Nope.  My Man-At-Arms has a quirk where he's obsessed with food, so he just activates the cart.  The Black fucking Pleague, one of the worst diseases in the game.  

At this point, I say fuck it.  I'm the fuck out of here.  I exit the dungeon.  Two of my characters get diseases in the mission summary screen.

Seriously...at that point I was just laughing about it.  The game just decided that I was going to have a bad time, and it rained shit all over me for about a ten minute time frame.  

[Gorn]

Finally got around to playing Witcher 3 on my new PC. Currently in Velen on lvl 8. What an amazing, wonderful game. It's everything I ever wanted from an RPG and more. Even Velen (objectively, a shithole) feels wonderful to explore - can't wait to see Novigrad and Skellige.

Two things stand out so far:

1. Incredible quality of the writing. For example, Bloody Baron could have easily been a straight-up villain in a lesser game, but here he is probably the most complex RPG NPC I can remember.

2. The game is unexpectedly funny in places, possibly because these moments stand out from the gloom of the setting. Two such moments are the goat escort mission and the "Allgod" sidequest.

[Inigima]

6 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

I think you're being obtuse because I upset you in the Castlevania thread, but just in case, here is a nice wiki on it: Metroidvania.

Specifically important: 

RPG Elements

Metroidvania video games typically take the Metroid formula a step further, allowing the player to gain levels and advance their character's statistics through the defeat of enemies in a manner most commonly found in a console rpg. This was introduced in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night and all subsequent 2D Castlevania games have followed this trend until the WiiWare release Castlevania The Adventure Rebirth.

 

 

And that's all I said. It's a minor pet peeve in how Metroidvania's have lost this aspect over the years. "Metroid" may be apparent in the term, yes, but so is "vania." While many aspects have remained, all I wanted to say is my favorite aspect has largely been eschewed in the PC years. I'm sorry you fail to understand this nuance.

I personally don't consider leveling up particularly important to the concept; I understand what your link says, but, uh, it's a wiki, and not even Wikipedia at that. It's definitely true that Castlevanias have adopted that concept, but most of the early Castlevanias didn't have it. To me the defining characteristics are action combat with a large world that gates access to certain areas with unlockable abilities.

I beat Hollow Knight a while ago and have been on the hunt for some more Metroidvania. I picked up these in the Steam sale:

Alwa's Awakening - a pretty primitive one, an homage to the NES era. Quite good, longer than I thought it would be, but definitely heavy on the platforming side.

Shadow Complex Remastered - I bought this on the 360 when it came out and then didn't get very far. I beat it yesterday, so only about 8 years to beat a 4 hour long game. Fun, but it shepherds you along a particular path; you can certainly break that path to get more collectibles, but there's not much in the way of fast travel and the nature of the combat and level design makes the prospect unappealing unless that stuff is already more or less on your way. I also felt like the upgrades I got never got much chance to breathe; once I got done collecting them, it was time to beat the game. The modern-day nature of the game also doesn't give the developers creative room to stretch their legs -- the game mostly takes place in a military base so the entire game looks like one. Despite these complaints, I had fun with it and there are far worse ways to spend $5.

Castlevania: Lords of Shadow - Mirror of Fate HD - I love the DS Castlevanias and am hoping to like this, but it seems kind of overproduced and the engine doesn't run very well all things considered. It's certainly playable but you'd hope for a more polished product.

Odallus: The Dark Call - This is another NES-style game, this one with discrete levels to get through, selected on an overworld map (and, I think, revisitable to find more secrets). Solid so far but I've only put about 15 minutes in, which was enough to beat the boss of the first level.

Momodora: Reverie Under The Moonlight - This is, um, rather hard. So far it's fairly linear (I've only played about a half an hour), but I'm hoping it opens up. Even regular enemies will fuck you up if you're not careful. Which is actually my biggest complaint, bigger enemies and bosses do enough damage that you can't take more than a hit or so without dying. Smaller enemies don't hit as hard, but the damage is still enough that you really want to play as close to perfectly as possible.

[Fez]

19 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

Funny you say this, I was thinking the whole game might look like that area. After I posed last night, I opened a new area--kind of a woodsy area, and my interest sky rocketed!

Though, I have a pet-peeve with this metroidvania tag on so many games. These are metroid games, no? Metroidvania, to my mind, would have leveling up and more RPG elements like Symphony of the Night. Oh well.

Hollow Knight does not have leveling up per se, but it does have light RPG elements and the ability to get stronger. Enemies drop Geo when they are defeated, you can use this Geo to purchase charms (which alter and improve various aspects of your character) and the ability to equip additional charms (there are also items you can buy). However, except at the beginning, you will never come close to being able to equip all the charms you have; so you have to customize your character, swapping charms as necessary at benches. 

You can also purchase a limited number of mask shards and soul vessels, and you'll find many others of these as you explore; for every four mask shards you will permanently increase your health by 1 and for every three soul vessels you will permanently increase the amount of soul you can store by 33% of your initial storage. You will also eventually find a blacksmith, who can upgrade your weapon up to four times (though good luck finding the materials for the 4th upgrade).

There's more 'vania to the game than appears at first blush.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

6 hours ago, briantw said:

I think my favorite thing about playing Darkest Dungeon is those moments where the game lulls you into a false sense of security, then mercilessly bends you over and fucks you hard.  

I did a level three boss mission, the Swine King.  I essentially just destroyed him.  Took almost no damage.  Just an easy, quick encounter.  Fool that I am, I decided to continue my way through the dungeon to make a little extra money.  Left the boss room and a random fight appeared in the hallway I entered.  Three wretches, I thought.  No big deal, I thought.  All three of them target my Arbalest with their vomit attack.  She gets three fucking diseases in a row.  All of them awful.  

Oh, it's all uphill from there, I thought.  Next fight...four bloodsucker enemies from the Crimson Court DLC.  Suddenly, two of my characters now have the Crimson Curse, one of whom is the fucking Arbalest who is already suffering from every goddamn disease known to man.  I then walk by a food cart, and in my inventory I have the herbs that will cleanse it and make it safe to use.  Nope.  My Man-At-Arms has a quirk where he's obsessed with food, so he just activates the cart.  The Black fucking Pleague, one of the worst diseases in the game.  

At this point, I say fuck it.  I'm the fuck out of here.  I exit the dungeon.  Two of my characters get diseases in the mission summary screen.

Seriously...at that point I was just laughing about it.  The game just decided that I was going to have a bad time, and it rained shit all over me for about a ten minute time frame.  

Yeah, Darkest Dungeon is the king of the one encounter wipe that just turns the entire expedition around.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

2 hours ago, Fez said:

Hollow Knight does not have leveling up per se, but it does have light RPG elements and the ability to get stronger. Enemies drop Geo when they are defeated, you can use this Geo to purchase charms (which alter and improve various aspects of your character) and the ability to equip additional charms (there are also items you can buy). However, except at the beginning, you will never come close to being able to equip all the charms you have; so you have to customize your character, swapping charms as necessary at benches. 

You can also purchase a limited number of mask shards and soul vessels, and you'll find many others of these as you explore; for every four mask shards you will permanently increase your health by 1 and for every three soul vessels you will permanently increase the amount of soul you can store by 33% of your initial storage. You will also eventually find a blacksmith, who can upgrade your weapon up to four times (though good luck finding the materials for the 4th upgrade).

There's more 'vania to the game than appears at first blush.

I'm finding that as I go on and I'm starting to really love it. Collection, beastiary, charms, higher health bar--and I CAN'T wait for weapon upgrades. That's like my favorite thing ever in games. Don't know why. I love exploring this world. I'm not looking at any guides or anything and just exploring as I go, and it's really mysterious and cool--I get that Dark Souls vibe for sure. Love it. So glad I got it.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, Darkest Dungeon is the king of the one encounter wipe that just turns the entire expedition around.

Oh...I need to reinstall this.

[RumHam]

19 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

Yet Metroidvania seems to have been coined with Symphony of the Night--it's the game that really gave birth to the term. Doesn't matter. Some of us prefer the RPG elements, and we grew up on Metroidvania being Symphony of the Night-esque. These new games are definitely Super Metroid, and that's about it. Just a pet peeve. Not much you can do about words changing meaning. 

I'm with you, I prefer the ones with RPG elements. But unless you're excluding the Metroid games from the definition of Metroidvania then RPG elements clearly aren't a requirement. 

I'd love to see a re-release or sequel to Castlevania: Harmony of Despair. (The multiplayer one for 360/PS3.) It wasn't perfect but I really enjoyed it and it's the only one I can't really go back and play again  because it's no fun solo. 

[KiDisaster]

Started the new Prey yesterday. Pretty damn cool so far. Very reminiscent of Bioshock. 

Fuck mimics. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

11 hours ago, RumHam said:

I'm with you, I prefer the ones with RPG elements. But unless you're excluding the Metroid games from the definition of Metroidvania then RPG elements clearly aren't a requirement. 

I'd love to see a re-release or sequel to Castlevania: Harmony of Despair. (The multiplayer one for 360/PS3.) It wasn't perfect but I really enjoyed it and it's the only one I can't really go back and play again  because it's no fun solo. 

I just remember I bought Harmony of Despair and never played it for some reason! Well, I'm dusting off the 360--but I guess the solo thing may be why I never got around to it...

And yeah, Metroid seems to be the most important factor in defining these games. It's okay. I still like them anyway.