Frederic_ed

What future events from the books can we REALLY imply from the show

127 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

I agree, specifics in the show won't necessarily cross to the books, for example Tommen's suicide, Selmy's death, Stannis's death, etc.  What we do know, apart from things like R+L=J are characters and story arcs in the books that don't matter.  Aegon, fake or not won't matterin the end.  Neither will Ramsay or Roose Bolton.  Victarion doesn't matter either.  The whole Dornish thing is basically a dead end. Margaery and Loras don't matter either.  The Alayne part of Sansa's story is also a dead end, Harry the Heir doesn't figure into it.  And all the Tyrion and Penny stuff doesn't matter.

As someone who was first a book person some of this is good and some bad.  I never cared for Euron and Victarion or for Dorne or Aegon, fake or not.  The bad news is that means that whatever GRRM had cooked up for Illyrio and Varys as a grand conspiracy doesn't matter either.  I was also curious about exactly what part Aegon was going to play (despite not really caring for the story line), after all Varys and Illyrio had gone to great lengths to protect Dany and yet here they have someone with a better claim than hers that they have been protecting all along.  I was interested in Sansa as Alayne but more as being a protégé of Petyr's rather than the whole Harry the Hair thing that seems to play and important part in WoW.  And I guess that it calls into question my buying and reading Books 6&7 as well.

See, I can understand this approach only partially. Personaly, I found most of realesed chapters well written and therefore not completely  care what will be their plot impact. Also, there is still difference between "you can do version of climax without it" and "doesn´t matter at all". Things like Victarion won´t become king of Westeros or Aegon will be probably exposed as fake aren´t exactly spoilers. What matters is context and circumstances.  

Edited by Rhodan

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9 hours ago, Rhodan said:

See, I can understand this approach only partially. Personaly, I found most of realesed chapters well written and therefore not completely  care what will be their plot impact. Also, there is still difference between "you can do version of climax without it" and "doesn´t matter at all". Things like Victarion won´t become king of Westeros or Aegon will be probably exposed as fake aren´t exactly spoilers. What matters is context and circumstances.  

I guess that my difference comes in the fact that while I think that GRRM is an above average writer and I enjoy much of his writing I don't feel that he is any more than that.  Admittedly I don't read all that many fantasy stories but I certainly wouldn't put in him the class of Mary Stewart and her "Merlin" series or (admittedly not fantasy) Patrick O"Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series or C.S. Forrester's Hornblower books.  And from what I have heard about the tales of abuse perpetrated by Euron on his younger brothers, well, I have zero interest in reading any of that. 

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9 minutes ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

I guess that my difference comes in the fact that while I think that GRRM is an above average writer and I enjoy much of his writing I don't feel that he is any more than that.  Admittedly I don't read all that many fantasy stories but I certainly wouldn't put in him the class of Mary Stewart and her "Merlin" series or (admittedly not fantasy) Patrick O"Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series or C.S. Forrester's Hornblower books.  And from what I have heard about the tales of abuse perpetrated by Euron on his younger brothers, well, I have zero interest in reading any of that. 

OK

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On 5/22/2017 at 2:36 PM, Byfort of Corfe said:

I agree, specifics in the show won't necessarily cross to the books, for example Tommen's suicide, Selmy's death, Stannis's death, etc.  What we do know, apart from things like R+L=J are characters and story arcs in the books that don't matter.  Aegon, fake or not won't matterin the end.  Neither will Ramsay or Roose Bolton.  Victarion doesn't matter either.  The whole Dornish thing is basically a dead end. Margaery and Loras don't matter either.  The Alayne part of Sansa's story is also a dead end, Harry the Heir doesn't figure into it.  And all the Tyrion and Penny stuff doesn't matter.

As someone who was first a book person some of this is good and some bad.  I never cared for Euron and Victarion or for Dorne or Aegon, fake or not.  The bad news is that means that whatever GRRM had cooked up for Illyrio and Varys as a grand conspiracy doesn't matter either.  I was also curious about exactly what part Aegon was going to play (despite not really caring for the story line), after all Varys and Illyrio had gone to great lengths to protect Dany and yet here they have someone with a better claim than hers that they have been protecting all along.  I was interested in Sansa as Alayne but more as being a protégé of Petyr's rather than the whole Harry the Hair thing that seems to play and important part in WoW.  And I guess that it calls into question my buying and reading Books 6&7 as well.

This doesn't really make sense. What does it mean to matter?  That it plays a role in the endgame with the White Walkers?

I mean Ned doesn't play a role at the end. Did he matter? And Robb Stark not really either. Did he matter?

Actions and plots have domino effects. 

It's why the show's writing is such a mess. They're trying to get from A to D without hitting B and C first. 

Take Aegon for example. GRRM has said that there will be a Second Dance of Dragons between Aegon and Daenerys. 

So how does another war not matter? That is significant in of itself and Aegon's inclusion just by existing and being in Westeros drastically changes the context of Daenerys' invasion.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

On Invalid Date at 4:33 AM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

This doesn't really make sense. What does it mean to matter?  That it plays a role in the endgame with the White Walkers?

I mean Ned doesn't play a role at the end. Did he matter? And Robb Stark not really either. Did he matter?

Actions and plots have domino effects. 

It's why the show's writing is such a mess. They're trying to get from A to D without hitting B and C first. 

Take Aegon for example. GRRM has said that there will be a Second Dance of Dragons between Aegon and Daenerys. 

So how does another war not matter? That is significant in of itself and Aegon's inclusion just by existing and being in Westeros drastically changes the context of Daenerys' invasion.

 

 

 

Or the show is actually a tighter, better edited narrative.  Simply put, whether there is a "second dance of dragons" or not it doesn't affect the end of the book or show, which is to finally tell us who wins "The Game of Thrones. And good lord, assuming GRRM actually will write 2 more books, which I really doubt, when is he going to put in two more wars?  And if you want to talk about a mess of a story look at the books.  Books 1-3, a logical progression of the story, then books 4+5, pretty much a waste of time, story lines that go nowhere, useless characters dropped into the story for no logical reason, just to leave a few chapters later, just as illogically. 

Edited by Byfort of Corfe

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7 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

Or the show is actually a tighter, better edited narrative.  Simply put, whether there is a "second dance of dragons" or not it doesn't affect the end of the book or show, which is to finally tell us who wins "The Game of Thrones. And good lord, assuming GRRM actually will write 2 more books, which I really doubt, when is he going to put in two more wars?  And if you want to talk about a mess of a story look at the books.  Books 1-3, a logical progression of the story, then books 4+5, pretty much a waste of time, story lines that go nowhere, useless characters dropped into the story for no logical reason, just to leave a few chapters later, just as illogically. 

Considering how the conflict of "game of thrones" is characterized as counterproductive and destructive for it´s participants, I would say that we already know that, at least in a sense, no one wins it. What is to me obvious, and I just state it, not complain, that show is interested in barebone climax - final political situation, general fates of characters and result of White Walkers conflict. That still leaves the space to the books for Varys and Illyrio, Marwyn,Maester conspiracy, etc.   

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14 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

And good lord, assuming GRRM actually will write 2 more books, which I really doubt, when is he going to put in two more wars?  And if you want to talk about a mess of a story look at the books.  Books 1-3, a logical progression of the story, then books 4+5, pretty much a waste of time, story lines that go nowhere, useless characters dropped into the story for no logical reason, just to leave a few chapters later, just as illogically. 

Couldn't agree with you more.  I actually did enjoy reading AFFC & ADWD, but yes they could have easily been condensed into one book.  Even if GRRM wanted to finish the series I think it would take him at least 3 books to get the kind of resolution most fans would want of all the brewing conflicts.  Every time in ADWD that characters refer to not being sure exactly what Illyrio wants ("the fat man has changed his mind again") I think it is GRRM winking to the readers about how he knows the Aegon plot is not exactly what he had been building to (even if it was done in a way that could be traced back to AGOT) and also how he was bored and added some new stuff in to keep himself interested.

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15 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

Or the show is actually a tighter, better edited narrative.

Even calling the show "a narrative" is a bit of a stretch at this point, considering all the inconsistencies and illogical turns D&D took with their writing. I'm constantly surprised by people deeming it "tighter" or "better edited" than the books. LOL! Just look at arguably the main story of the last two seasons, which was the rise and fall of Ramsay Bolton. Tighter, you say? Better edited? LOL!!!

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Oh, and also: if Martin's "NO" to his editor wasn't revealed, I'm positive all the show lovers would be convinced that Benjen is Coldhands. They wouldn't have a shred of a doubt. Think about that when you're discussing what's possible to figure from the show about the books.

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1 hour ago, StepStark said:

Even calling the show "a narrative" is a bit of a stretch at this point, considering all the inconsistencies and illogical turns D&D took with their writing. I'm constantly surprised by people deeming it "tighter" or "better edited" than the books. LOL! Just look at arguably the main story of the last two seasons, which was the rise and fall of Ramsay Bolton. Tighter, you say? Better edited? LOL!!!

I am on record multiple times saying that Martin has lost control of his story and that the last two books were full of needless filler, dead end stories, etc.   And the show confirms that there are almost certainly going to be more dead ends than even I expected, like, all the Tyrells end up dead, like Aegon is not important at all, just another stalling mechanism.

That said, the show itself also, oddly has had a huge amount of filler.  I can't count the number of pointless silly scenes that added nothing to the story, the repetitive scenes with the same characters saying the same stuff to each other multiple times.  So, in an odd way, they actually do mirror GRRM to some degree, other than at least his dead end plots make sense, which the shows' main plots no longer make sense except as "stuff that happens".

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35 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I am on record multiple times saying that Martin has lost control of his story and that the last two books were full of needless filler, dead end stories, etc.

Just like I'm on record multiple times saying that you're wrong. But that's not important, what is important is that so far you cannot point to any part of the last two books that is actually unnecessary or filler or whatever. All those plots you call fillers can very realistically gain more meaning in the coming books. And yes, even Quentyn's death. You could eventually be right about some (I hope you won't), but so far it's just a theoretical possibility.

39 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

And the show confirms that there are almost certainly going to be more dead ends than even I expected, like, all the Tyrells end up dead, like Aegon is not important at all, just another stalling mechanism.

Sorry but this is just absurd. Tyrells in the show are so different than in the books that I don't know how can you conclude anything from it. After all, I think Martin did have a reason to make all that fuss about leaving Loras' brothers from the show. He actually complained about it, and implied that Garlan and/or Willas will play important roles in the future. And about Aegon, it's even more obvious that Martin put a lot of effort into that storyline, so I can either believe in his judgement (which didn't prove wrong so far), or in the judgement of D&D (which proves untrustworthy on every corner).

All in all, no, the show is definitely not a reliable sign of what's to come in the books. I only think that three things can be expected based on the show: Shireen's death (though not nearly in the same manner), Hodor's "Hold the door" death (hopefully not in the same manner) and the truth about creation of The Others. And of course, in all three instances D&D felt the need to announce that Martin did actually reveal it to them, because otherwise people just wouldn't believe them.

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We will have to agree to disagree. 

I can tell that House Tyrell will probably go extinct, that Marg will die and probably Loras as well.  I can tell that Aegon isn't riding a dragon and is not a part of the endgame.  I can tell that neither Arianne nor Doran will matter, probably any more than Quentyn did.  I can, sadly tell that there is not going to be much of a great northern conspiracy and the promise of Wyman Manderly and Rickon and Osha is not going to be fulfilled in the books.  I can tell that the Blackfish, too, is not going to fulfill his promise, but hopefully he gets a better end than the show gave him.  I can tell that Euron, despite being one of Martin's worst creations, is SO important the show put him in.  I can tell a lot of things about the books from the show, and none of them so far are good.
 

The Tyrells are not that different.  Loras is gay in the books.  Marg is politically smart.  QOT is basically the same character.  They do the same things as the books, so it is probable that those who died in the show will die in the book but probably not the same way.

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I can tell that House Tyrell will probably go extinct, that Marg will die and probably Loras as well.  I can tell that Aegon isn't riding a dragon and is not a part of the endgame.  I can tell that neither Arianne nor Doran will matter, probably any more than Quentyn did.  I can, sadly tell that there is not going to be much of a great northern conspiracy and the promise of Wyman Manderly and Rickon and Osha is not going to be fulfilled in the books.  I can tell that the Blackfish, too, is not going to fulfill his promise, but hopefully he gets a better end than the show gave him.  I can tell that Euron, despite being one of Martin's worst creations, is SO important the show put him in.  I can tell a lot of things about the books from the show, and none of them so far are good.

I'm pretty confident that none of these predictions are going to prove correct. I just hope that you realize that literally none of those storylines has to go that way in the books, which means that all your predictions are based on some level of trust in D&D. That's your right of course, but also that's not something I'm willing to participate in in any way.

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

The Tyrells are not that different.  Loras is gay in the books.  Marg is politically smart.  QOT is basically the same character.  They do the same things as the books, so it is probable that those who died in the show will die in the book but probably not the same way.

Now this is just plain wrong. Saying that Loras is not that different because he's gay in both mediums is missing all the stupidity of his scenes in the show and the pleasing complexity (for a fairly minor character) of his role in the books. Saying that Marg is not that different is even worse, because in the show she's a completely invented character (and she doesn't make any sense, at least for me, but okay). In the books she pretty obscure, because very little is known of her, but we do actually know that she isn't the one who's pulling any strings in Tyrell family, so no, she's (as of yet) not politically smart in the books. And how can one say that they do the same things as in the books? Did you miss the part in AFFC where Loras goes on to capture Dragonstone and possibly die in the process?

Speaking of books' Tyrells in general, there is no way that they're all going to be murdered at the same time by their political opponents (be it Cersei or someone else) as in the show, unless Martin suddenly looses his mind. And just that simple fact makes all the difference in the world, because, if they don't die out at the same time, they will simply have to play not insignificant role in the endgame, even if it all boils down to their decision to support this or that claimant.

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I'm pretty confident that none of these predictions are going to prove correct. I just hope that you realize that literally none of those storylines has to go that way in the books, which means that all your predictions are based on some level of trust in D&D. That's your right of course, but also that's not something I'm willing to participate in in any way.

Now this is just plain wrong. Saying that Loras is not that different because he's gay in both mediums is missing all the stupidity of his scenes in the show and the pleasing complexity (for a fairly minor character) of his role in the books. Saying that Marg is not that different is even worse, because in the show she's a completely invented character (and she doesn't make any sense, at least for me, but okay). In the books she pretty obscure, because very little is known of her, but we do actually know that she isn't the one who's pulling any strings in Tyrell family, so no, she's (as of yet) not politically smart in the books. And how can one say that they do the same things as in the books? Did you miss the part in AFFC where Loras goes on to capture Dragonstone and possibly die in the process?

Speaking of books' Tyrells in general, there is no way that they're all going to be murdered at the same time by their political opponents (be it Cersei or someone else) as in the show, unless Martin suddenly looses his mind. And just that simple fact makes all the difference in the world, because, if they don't die out at the same time, they will simply have to play not insignificant role in the endgame, even if it all boils down to their decision to support this or that claimant.

And I am equally confident that the majority of them are correct, of course, on your side, you have the very high probability that Martin will never finish the series and that Winds will be the last book....so you will have forever to dispute that the show is ending things for the main characters the same way Martin told them he was ending his own story...if he never actually gets around to finishing it.

ETA:  The show said they initially weren't going to do Dorne at all; no Sand Snakes, no Doran, no story there....which makes it to me anyway 100% clear that just as I feared, Dorne is another late in the game introduced story that goes nowhere.  

Just because the show has devolved into spectacle and stupidity doesn't mean that you cannot read the tea leaves on what it means for the books and most book characters

Edited by Cas Stark

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Posted (edited)

On 11/5/2017 at 6:08 PM, Frederic_ed said:
  • Sansa and the Vale army will eventually go north.

Anyway, what do you think? Are there other main events we can imply from the show?

I don't think this one is anywhere near certain. Note that you didn't list "we can go sure Jaime will travel to Dorne at some point", probably because you believe this is a show-only placeholder plot. That may be true of Sansa going north, too.

Since Sansa took over a large part of Jeyne's plot in ADWD and her own Vale plot was condensed to barebones, I'm not sure this isn't a deviation of the same order. Sansa's plot is likely to culminate - in books and show - in LF getting killed, in a way that will be at least partially her doing. Since Sansa is in the Vale and LF is in the Vale (and other characters, like Arya or Brienne, could move there) in the books, most of the things that happen in the north in the show could happen in the Vale in the books.

The part about revenge on Ramsay won't be in the books (at least not in such personal terms, if Sansa would get involved at all) because it is Jeyne's (or rather, Theon's) storyline in the books and either Stannis or Jon is likely to defeat the Boltons, probably without any help from the Vale.

The Vale army going north is also not terribly likely. It is noted that the Vale is snowed in and Vale knights aren't especially noted as warriors in the snow, as far as the books have shown so far (whereas the show made it a point to tell us beforehand that Vale knights are especially good winter warriors). Nor does Sansa have control over them at this point, and it seems that going from her present situation to being able to talk/pressure Vale knights into fighting for the north would be a serious story arc in itself. That doesn't mean the army couldn't go help fight the Others eventually, but then quite late in the game.

Stannis has an army in the books that already looks capable of defeating the Boltons. If he does, the need to involve the Vale army to win the day against Boltons isn't there. If he doesn't, they would probably take heavy losses while taking down Stannis (at least the suspected "battle of the frozen lake" looks like a proper ambush by Stannis on Bolton forces, so surely they won't get away scotfree from that), possibly leaving a resurrected Jon to take down the Boltons.

Since Littlefinger doesn't enter the show kind of alliance with Boltons in the books, he isn't likely to be present in the frozen north to start political games involving Jon.

Sansa may go north once LF has been eliminated, and the Vale knights may help the north at some point. But I doubt it will have anything to do with Boltons and with Jon becoming King in the north. I also suspect that the food of the Vale will be important in the books, and Sansa may play a role there.

And it's possible that Sansa will be reunited with Jon and/or Arya in the south, after Dany's invasion and during or after the suspected second dance of dragons (something the show has entirely discarded - probably wisely since filming is already complicated enough, but this extra layer of the books may also exert influence on sideplayers like Sansa).

One thing Jon is likely to do in both show and books is to seek southern help against the Others, most likely finding it with his cousin Daenerys, though possibly at a price.

Edited by Wouter

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Posted (edited)

The Vale army has to eventually go North, if not to fight the Boltons, then to ally with Jon and fight the WW.  They are like Chekhov's army...a well rested, well provisioned army full of seasoned fighters...been sitting around for 5 books, they have to get into the action sooner or later.

I do think Sansa will probably go North, because Arianne/Aegon/Cersei are going to be what goes on in KL and she has no role there.  So, she would either stay in the Vale or go North.  I don't know that we will see a Sansa/Jon reunion, they have not much of a relationship in the books.  Not sure on Sansa and Arya, but probably.  Her reunion with the Hound will probably take place I would guess in the Riverlands, not the North.

Edited by Cas Stark

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8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The Vale army has to eventually go North, if not to fight the Boltons, then to ally with Jon and fight the WW.  They are like Chekhov's army...a well rested, well provisioned army full of seasoned fighters...been sitting around for 5 books, they have to get into the action sooner or later.

I do think Sansa will probably go North, because Arianne/Aegon/Cersei are going to be what goes on in KL and she has no role there.  So, she would either stay in the Vale or go North.  I don't know that we will see a Sansa/Jon reunion, they have not much of a relationship in the books.  Not sure on Sansa and Arya, but probably.  Her reunion with the Hound will probably take place I would guess in the Riverlands, not the North.

The Vale army will be used, probably in the end game against the Others (not against the Boltons). They - and LF and through him Sansa - may also become involved in the second Dance, though. Sansa may still have unfinished business with Cersei, and a Bran prophetic vision from the first book connects her and Arya with the Hound, the Mountain and Jaime. That is likely to be southern business, IMO.

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51 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Just because the show has devolved into spectacle and stupidity doesn't mean that you cannot read the tea leaves on what it means for the books and most book characters

Actually, that is exactly what it means. Just like the opposite is true. If you are making conclusions about future books based on what you've seen in the show, it literally means that you are trusting D&D's rationale. And to illustrate how misleading that may be, just think about this: if you watched second season before you read ADWD, and trusted their rationale, by your logic you'd think that Ramsay is simply not important for future books, because D&D cut him out from the second season.

And the funniest thing is that we still don't know how important Ramsay is going to be in the books, even though D&D later tried to correct their blunder and, talented as they are, they committed the opposite mistake of too much Ramsay in seasons that followed. But even that doesn't mean anything, because Ramsay in the show was turned into Sansa's arc villain, instead of Theon's arc villain as in the books, so we have no way to predict what role in Theon's arc is Ramsay going to play in the books. Storytelling wisdom would have it that he's going to be important in anything that happens to Theon, which Theon's TWOW chapter clearly indicates, but in the show that was simply not the case. So I can trust D&D's rationale, or I can trust storytelling wisdom and Martin's skills as a writer. Sorry but that doesn't seem like much of a choice at all.

So if you think that show's treatment of Dorne means that Dorne is just a giant filler in the books, that clearly suggests that you put a lot of faith in D&D's reasoning. All I can say is good luck with that.

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George told them the end.  They KNOW the end for the main characters, they know how the story ends, because George told them.  They know who does what in the main threads of the story.  So, if they omit or kill someone, then it is what it is.  If you think that Summer and Rickon survive the series in the books, good luck with that.  But then, since I don't think he will ever finish the series, you will be, as I said earlier, free to believe that George's version will be different.

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

George told them the end.  They KNOW the end for the main characters, they know how the story ends, because George told them.  They know who does what in the main threads of the story.  So, if they omit or kill someone, then it is what it is.  If you think that Summer and Rickon survive the series in the books, good luck with that.  But then, since I don't think he will ever finish the series, you will be, as I said earlier, free to believe that George's version will be different.

If Martin doesn't finish the series it really won't matter what any of us believe about the endgame. But that aside, I see that you're trying to put it all on Martin, but that's a logical fallacy. Yes, he told them the end. He also told them about Ramsay, but they obviously didn't understand his relevance as a character until they actually read ADWD. And about Summer and Rickon, yes, I'm fairly confident that they're going to play much, much more important roles than in the show, but of course I have no way of knowing will they survive through the end of the series or not (though I do think they likely will, since unexpectedly many Starks and direwolves died already, so it'd become tiring if that keeps repeating). So again, you're basing your predictions entirely on D&D's rationale. If you think that's a rational thing to do, what can I say?

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