Frederic_ed

What future events from the books can we REALLY imply from the show

127 posts in this topic

22 hours ago, SecretWeapon said:

I honestly think he fully finished Winds and Spring to some degree too because i feel like S8 delay is to open a "slot" for Winds release. Spring may come on 2020 so its not obvious he had it ready

That sounds like a more plausible explanation than any I can think of for why he hasn't finished it, as he said in mid-2015 he'd be able to finish it by the end of that year (and release it by the time the episode of that title came out, which would have been really fitting) and estimates aren't usually off by 300+%.

If that's the case I wish he had released it though as it might give HBO some better source material than what they've been able to come up with, and it would have been nice to read the book without having some of it spoiled by the TV series. (Hence my initial plan to hold off on watching season 6 until the book came out.)

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The show was almost entirely faithful to Game, Clash, Storm. Had those three books not been published at the time the show was aired, a show watcher would know almost everything a reader eventually would find out.

The show started to diverge with Feast and Dance. I have never liked Feast and Dance; I think they're mediocre, to put it mildly.  My sense, going by the way the show treated the first three novels is that it wants to be faithful to Martin's work, and will diverge only when forced to. That means the show ending will most likely be the one GRRM gave them. 

GRRM can, of course, change his mind. He says that he's no architect, but a gardener. That a gardener who treats his garden the way GRRM treats the plot of his novel would end up with a dead garden is neither here nor there. Whether GRRM's ending is dramatically different from the show's ending might be a moot point, however. I doubt very much that GRRM is writing Winds and Dream at once. If we get Winds before the last season of the show, we will be lucky. Given GRRM's unfortunate post-Storm writing schedule, that means Dream should be out (if it's ever out) six-seven years after the last season of the show. Most people on this forum will have lost interest by then; I sure as hell will have lost interest by then.

That kind of means that for the majority of GRRM's readers, the show ending will be canon. 

 

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18 hours ago, CaptainTheo said:

That sounds like a more plausible explanation than any I can think of for why he hasn't finished it, as he said in mid-2015 he'd be able to finish it by the end of that year (and release it by the time the episode of that title came out, which would have been really fitting) and estimates aren't usually off by 300+%.

If that's the case I wish he had released it though as it might give HBO some better source material than what they've been able to come up with, and it would have been nice to read the book without having some of it spoiled by the TV series. (Hence my initial plan to hold off on watching season 6 until the book came out.)

He says a lot of things.  He said that Dance would be out a year after Feast, but it wasn't, not by a long shot.

I would suggest if you are holding off on the show until the series ends, you may be waiting the rest of your life.  LOL.  I don't even think Winds is coming out until 2019 or later unless his publisher has some leverage to force something out by 2018.

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Posted (edited)

Here's what I think:

Harry will give Sansa a bad time on their wedding night (if they get there).

Greatjon Umber will die (he's not in a good place right now, getting captured and all).

Roslin Frey will bear a son (because nothing goes well for the Tullys and she's been praying for a daughter)

Rickon and Osha will die, in a very anticlimactic way.

Jojen will die, his condition is getting worse and worse the farther Bran, Meera and Jojen travel north.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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On 5/11/2017 at 1:12 PM, SeaWitch said:

Lady Stoneheart pacing through a mass slaughter of Freys, like the Masque of the Red Death, advancing on old Walder, vengeance incarnate. Hmm. Yeah, okay. I like it.

Does Lady Stoneheart even have fighting abilities?

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19 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Does Lady Stoneheart even have fighting abilities?

Horrifying zombie lady advancing on you, backed by the Brotherhood? He'll probably have a heart-attack.  Though I was thinking, she'd have others to do the general slaughter, but she could choke Walder even as he (re)kills her. Preferably with the hall on fire around them.

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I think it's important to remember that while the ending will be the same as the books , but the road to the ending will be different . A good example of this is  Euron. Book Euron is completely different from show Euron . If DD had knew GRRMs plans for Euron or read the Forsaken chapter they would have made Euron more like his book counterpart. Pretty sure that Euron will cause some major chaos in TWOW and early ADOS , but this parts of the books is the ones GRRM didn't tell the showrunners , that's why they made show Euron lame. 

Shireens sacrifice will also happend in a very different way. Stannis will probably be around until the Others attack.

The show as confirmed this:

- Dany gets a Dothraki horde

- Margaery , Mace and Loras dies

- Barristan dies in Mereen

- Victarion wont play a major role

- Jon comes back

- LF will not kill Robin

- Rickon is a dead end. A popular theory is that Rickon ends up as Lord of Winterfell in the end , but that wont happen. 

- Jojen was probably the paste

- Boltons and Freys will fail

- Harry the heir is not important 

- Jaime and Brienne survives LSH 

- Dorne is fucked

Etc

 

 

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On 2017-05-11 at 6:08 PM, Frederic_ed said:

So as we know, George told David and Dan how the story will end. We also know they have streamlined the story and chopped off many characters and storylines, but they still will get to the same ending as the books'. So, we can certainly imply some future events from the books by looking at the show. I'm not only talking about little events, like Jon's resurrection or Shireen's burning, but major events. Anyway I think some of the main events are (includes season 7 spoilers):

  • Vary's plan (i.e. Aegon) will eventually fail.
  • Doran's plan will eventually fail (Arianne might marry Aegon in the books, so these two plots could merge, anyway they will both fail).
  • Littlefinger's plan will eventually fail.
  • The Boltons will be eliminated (by Stannis or Jon, it doesn't matter, the point is that they will all die).
  • Stannis will ultimately die (he might defeat the Boltons in the books, though, but in the end he will die).
  • Sansa and the Vale army will eventually go north.
  • All (more likely most) of the Freys will die in some kind of celebration or feast at the Twins (probably killed by Lady Stoneheart, although could be someone else's doing)
  • Jon will eventually become King in the North (in the show it didn't make a lot of sense, but in the books George left a clear way for this to happen: Robb's will)
  • Cersei will eventually become queen of Westeros after some kind of massive killing that might involve wildfire (this was already hinted in the old sketch of the plot that George wrote in the nineties, the part that said that the Lannister antagonist was going to become king "by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession")
  • The Tyrells will eventually die (at least the most important ones)
  • Randyll Tarly will eventually betray the Tyrells (he was already described as dangerous in the epilogue of ADWD).

Anyway, what do you think? Are there other main events we can imply from the show?

Myranda Royce (or maybe Saffron) + Harry the heir will turn out real nasty.

Arya will learn face shifting and still not be dead or no one. Plus if she and Nymeria reunites, she'll have a literal wolf-army... (it will be awesome)

If the guy playing Daario isnt cast for season 8, his book-self is not likely to survive BoM.

Dany will actually turn up at Westeros. (I'm praying for a visit behind the black wall of Volantis on the way though)

Varys will join Dany's cause (either by Aegons death or by Dany and Aegon joining up)

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Well for Harrold, we know he's a jerk. I think he'll rape Sansa on their wedding night, just as Ramsay did on the show.

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Posted (edited)

I think anyone who´ll post anything with "just like in the show" should stand trial for lack of imagination :-).  

Edited by Rhodan

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Only the basic plot points, that can be kind of expected anyway, I think.

- Jon get's resurrected and is key in the fight against the WW

- Dany will make it to Westeros with Tyrion as an ally

- All the Stark kids eventually return to/reunite in WF

- Cersei assumes power in KL by force for some time

 

Otherwise I expect the books to have a much "broader" ending, involving much more factions than the streamlined show and therefore wouldn't conclude that Dorne, Stannis, Vale, Ironborn, etc. ultimately play no "major role" because they are killed off, omitted or made sidekicks to one of the protagonists on the show.

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6 hours ago, Rhodan said:

I think anyone who´ll post anything with "just like in the show" should stand trial for lack of imagination :-).  

Thanks a bunch.

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I don't mean To be snobby at all but I won't believe a darn thing the show does. Season 5 was so ridiculous and unnecessary..... 

They took 2 very different paths and I seriously can't say it's the same story. Not hating at all I really enjoy the show. But I also won't let that interfere with the real story.

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11 hours ago, Rhodan said:

I think anyone who´ll post anything with "just like in the show" should stand trial for lack of imagination :-).  

 

It is not about imagination though. It is about how people think the story will go.

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6 hours ago, FreeParking said:

 

It is not about imagination though. It is about how people think the story will go.

Yes... And  how much they let the show to influence it. Which is about imagination.

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16 hours ago, Rhodan said:

Yes... And  how much they let the show to influence it. Which is about imagination.

 

No, it is not.

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21 hours ago, Rhodan said:

Yes... And  how much they let the show to influence it. Which is about imagination.

No, it's not.

You read the  books, then you watch the Show. You draw up your own conclusions,

I, for example, have always claimed that, once both books and show are finished, people will realize the Show was actually quite faithful to the source material. Far more than what people think it is now.

D&D simply cut out half of George's act 2 because it didn't help their narrative. Sure, they could have done it better, but it's what we got.

So, fAegon, Dorne, Boltons vs Stannis, Sansa and LF getting the Vale army, Victarion, the Battle of Meeren, Jon post-stabbing, etc will put the book characters at pretty much the same position they are on the Show right now (and thus, Act 3 should be similar in both mediums): Sansa, LF and the Vale army in Winterfell, Jon as KitN, Dorne and fAegon out, Stannis, Roose, Ramsay, Barristan etc are dead, Dany, Tyrion and the Iron Fleet are allied and going to Westeros, and go on.

 

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3 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

No, it's not.

You read the  books, then you watch the Show. You draw up your own conclusions,

I, for example, have always claimed that, once both books and show are finished, people will realize the Show was actually quite faithful to the source material. Far more than what people think it is now.

D&D simply cut out half of George's act 2 because it didn't help their narrative. Sure, they could have done it better, but it's what we got.

So, fAegon, Dorne, Boltons vs Stannis, Sansa and LF getting the Vale army, Victarion, the Battle of Meeren, Jon post-stabbing, etc will put the book characters at pretty much the same position they are on the Show right now (and thus, Act 3 should be similar in both mediums): Sansa, LF and the Vale army in Winterfell, Jon as KitN, Dorne and fAegon out, Stannis, Roose, Ramsay, Barristan etc are dead, Dany, Tyrion and the Iron Fleet are allied and going to Westeros, and go on.

 

OK, but read my post - "just like in the show". I was saying that some people probably just see the show and assume that it will be same, becouse they cannot imagine any other scenario and this is milking the joke far beyond it´s worth.  

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6 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

Sure, they could have done it better, but it's what we got.

This can be excuse for literally anything. Being happy with something simply because "it's what we got" isn't really a high bar, is it?

6 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

I, for example, have always claimed that, once both books and show are finished, people will realize the Show was actually quite faithful to the source material. Far more than what people think it is now.

This stretches the very definition of "faithful" to absurd levels even if your basic assumption (that the show and the books will have roughly the same ending) proves correct (which is not likely at all but okay). It looks like "faithful" for you means "ends in similar way", which is very far from the most usual understanding of the word.

Not to mention that it doesn't work in reverse. How can season 2 become "more faithful" because of the show's ending? No matter what happens in the end, Talisa will always be Talisa. She will never be Jeyne. Robb's "love story" in the show will always remain very different from what happened in the books. Nothing can change that, just like with countless other examples. Tyrion in the show killed Tywin because of Shae and not because of Tysha and nothing can change that. Ellaria in the show killed Myrcella with a poisonous kiss and nothing can change that. Even if D&D from now on adapt TWOW and ADOS word for word, it will change nothing about the first six seasons and all the ridiculous unnecessary deviations they made.

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Posted (edited)

On 16/6/2017 at 11:35 AM, StepStark said:

This can be excuse for literally anything. Being happy with something simply because "it's what we got" isn't really a high bar, is it?

This stretches the very definition of "faithful" to absurd levels even if your basic assumption (that the show and the books will have roughly the same ending) proves correct (which is not likely at all but okay). It looks like "faithful" for you means "ends in similar way", which is very far from the most usual understanding of the word.

Not to mention that it doesn't work in reverse. How can season 2 become "more faithful" because of the show's ending? No matter what happens in the end, Talisa will always be Talisa. She will never be Jeyne. Robb's "love story" in the show will always remain very different from what happened in the books. Nothing can change that, just like with countless other examples. Tyrion in the show killed Tywin because of Shae and not because of Tysha and nothing can change that. Ellaria in the show killed Myrcella with a poisonous kiss and nothing can change that. Even if D&D from now on adapt TWOW and ADOS word for word, it will change nothing about the first six seasons and all the ridiculous unnecessary deviations they made.

Oh, that's not what I really meant. I'm quite happy with the Show as it is right now. No adaptation is perfect. LOTR is an extraordinary trilogy of books adapted into a extraordinary trilogy of movies, and they changed the plot and the characters quite a lot. Same happens with GOT to me.

D&D have claimed countless times that the ending will be pretty similar so I don't really have doubts about it. They've taken shortcuts, some of them were quite badly done, some of them were better, but we are now in a position I expect will be the same in the books, roughly at the end of Winds:

-Dany is sailing to Westeros with the Iron Fleet. She dumps Daario. Barristan is dead, Tyrion is at her side. Battle of Meeren won with the dragons.

-Jon has left the Night's Watch and has retaken Winterfell with an army of wildlings and minor Northern Houses. What I don't know is if he'll fight against Ramsay (which I doubt) or Stannis. He'll be King in the North (through Robb's will, omitted on the Show). Davos will end up at Winterfell somehow, with or without Rickon.

-Sansa and LF have control over the Knights of the Vale. They march North. 

-Bran has left the cave after an attack from the Others, Jojen is dead, Hodor probably as well. Bloodraven is gone, He probably knows about the origins of the Others.

-Dorne is allied with the Targaryens (fAegon on the books; I don't think he'll last much longer though, and Dany on the Show).

-Cersei is free from her trial, and has killed the HS, and probably some Tyrells. I don't know if shel'll blow up the Sept of Baelor, but I'm sure she will use the wildfire one time.

-Arya has ended her training and left the Faceless Men. She's back in Westeros.

All these plot points are nearly the same on the Show. Sure, I could be wrong, and Winds may not be like I believe it'll be at all, but I think it's safe to assume some of those at least.

Now, everyone is free to like or hate the execution of the Show's arc 2, the shortcuts and decisions D&D have made, but when I talk about faithfulness, what I mean is this: the plot, in terms of what happens, when and by whom, are almost the same.

 

Quote

 

Edited by Ingelheim

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