Frederic_ed

What future events from the books can we REALLY imply from the show

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I think this is accurate, assuming that GRRM ever actually finishes the series and gets one more two more books out after Winds, whenever that comes out.  But, I do think the broad strokes and the ending will be the same.  I'm not sure about what they've done with Sansa, that was pretty off the rails unless Harry the Heir turns out to be a really bad guy or she hooks up with someone else who really mistreats her.  And I doubt Cersei in the books is going to become MORE powerful than she has ever been, I think the show is just using her as a stand in for Aegon.  She will win or stall her trial somehow, kill a few more people and then go down.  But other than those more major deviations, I think the basic outline/ending is going to be the same.  

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On 6/18/2017 at 4:44 AM, Ingelheim said:

Now, everyone is free to like or hate the execution of the Show's arc 2, the shortcuts and decisions D&D have made, but when I talk about faithfulness, what I mean is this: the plot, in terms of what happens, when and by whom, are almost the same.

Sansa won't wed and be raped by Ramsay. I'm pretty sure she's not going to be raped by anyone, but even if she is, that's definitely not going to be Ramsay and she's definitely not going to give legitimacy to the Boltons by marrying into them.

Stannis won't be defeated by Boltons OR he won't burn Shireen. At least one of the defining points in Stannis' endgame in the show has to be different in the books. And maybe (I think very likely) both events will be different to big extent.

Davos will definitely not save Jon's body and help him get resurrected. He'll probably bring Rickon back to the story, or else it would be just a pretty stupid red herring (something GRRM never did so poorly in the five books).

Rickon won't die from Ramsay's hand, most probably (unless GRRM loses his mind).

Ramsay won't die as in the show.

Asha and Theon definitely won't play nearly the same role as in the show (unless GRRM loses his mind).

Brienne and Jaime in the books are about to face a plot point which can't help but be huge for their arcs after that. Whatever happens there, it's going to be completely different from the show's version, because the show doesn't even have LSH.

There are lot more possible deviations that at this moment are not guaranteed, so I didn't include them. These are just plot points that are inevitably going to be different in the show. All very important, and all very different. And that is why the show simply isn't faithful to the books any more. In fact, it stopped being long time ago.

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But the salient points are that almost certainly Ramsay and Roose will both die; Rickon will not be alive to carry on the legacy of House Stark, as many including myself have theorized; Sansa and LF will go North with the Vale army, one way or the other, Brienne and Jamie will both live and continue their story....., Davis will eventually ally with Jon, Stannis and Shireen will die, one way or the other.  

So, really, most of these points are going to end up in the same place as the books.  

And as bad as the Sansa Bolton story was on the show, it still ends up as a big nothing in the end, because there are no more Boltons left to be legitimized, they're all dead, Roose, Ramsay, Walda, they are defeated and their story is done.

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I hope you can see that none of your conclusions are based on what is actually impossible or necessary to happen in the books or in the show, opposite to my points that are all impossible to happen in the books. You believe that Rickon will die in the books too. Why do you believe that? Because it happened in the show. Really, there is no other reason. So you're proving that the show is faithful by making a point that is based on the assumption that the show is faithful.

I'm practically certain that Rickon isn't going to die, because that way his arc would literally make no freaking sense. No matter what happens between now and his death, his arc would be by far the stupidest arc in the entire ASOIAF because it'd be just an example of creating characters for the sole purpose of killing them later on.

With Jaime and Brienne it ultimately comes to same thing: it would literally make no sense at all if they're both alive and well after their encounter with LSH. Just like it would make no sense at all if the encounter with LSH doesn't happen for some reason, because the entire point of Jaime's chapter in ADWD was to set that encounter. So either GRRM lost not just control of the story but also common storytelling sense, or some people for who knows what reasons don't want to admit that huge differences between books and the show are highly probable from now on. And honestly, everything points to that at the moment. First, it's D&D's MO to change things for no reason other than that creatively it made sense to them because they wanted that to happen. Second, they even said recently in some interview, maybe a year or less ago, that the ending of the show won't necessarily be the same as in the books. Some interpreted this as their way to save books from being spoiled too much, but I found that explanation to be completely absurd, because if they really wanted to help Martin they'd just shut up about his books. And third, if five previous books are anything to judge by, there is simply no way that the last two books can be adapted faithfully in just 23 episodes (meaning all episodes after season 5, which is also generous because some AFFC parts found their way into season 6), so they simply have to cut and merge and change a lot.

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There has long been a theory that Rickon was a 'shaggy dog' story among book readers, so it's certainly not out of left field the idea that his story comes to nothing.  I never believed it until the show killed him and his wolf.  Now I do.

I have always believed that Brienne would kill Stoneheart and that's how she and Jamie will escape.

I absolutely believe George RR Martin has lost complete control of his story, and this has been several years now.

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On 12/05/2017 at 5:34 PM, Tifani said:

-Bran will leave the cave

-Hold the Door

-Melly is a 400 hundred year old

-Dany will take the Dothraki army with her to Westeros

+ Jon is not dead and will rule the North

+ Boltons and Yunkais will be defeated at some point

+ Cersei will return to power in some form for some time

Out of these extremely obvious things I don't see anything one can "REALLY" imply from the show.

Anything else just come from the very different stories of minor characters (to take an example Rickon's death, he may be alive and once learning that Jon would rule as his regent rather than a full king - as well if Bran return south of the wall, he may be nominal KoTN while Jon is regent- but as it makes no big difference D&D may have considered it was too complicated to keep that mainline Stark heir around or consider Bran's claim).

 

Edited by Lord Freypie

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8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

There has long been a theory that Rickon was a 'shaggy dog' story among book readers,

Which is really not reliable in any way,

8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

so it's certainly not out of left field the idea that his story comes to nothing.

Rickon's death would be worse than coming to nothing because he's a 7-8 years old child at this point in the books and there is no realistic way that a kid that age can have anything that even resembles a proper arc, and killing him without a proper arc would literally mean killing him for the sole purpose of killing characters which is just a cheap manipulation. So far, there is nothing I could describe as cheap manipulation in the books. On the other hand, there are many cheap manipulations in the show and one of them actually involved Rickon, and I mean the scene where Bran and him take parts.

8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I never believed it until the show killed him and his wolf.  Now I do.

I have always believed that Brienne would kill Stoneheart and that's how she and Jamie will escape.

I don't see even one reason for such beliefs except that creatively it makes sense to you because you want it to happen. But if your belief proves right it would mean that LSH's story comes literally to nothing. Just to be clear, I'm talking about the scenario in which Brienne and Jaime are relatively unhurt after LSH and their stories then on can be similar to the show version, because that's how I understood your idea. And that would mean that LSH had no purpose in the story and that bringing her back was completely meaningless in anything. Sorry but creatively and based on five books so far there are only reasons to expect exactly the opposite: that LSH will impact the story in significant ways.

8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I absolutely believe George RR Martin has lost complete control of his story, and this has been several years now.

Now sorry to say, but that is certainly from the left field, in the sense that it can be how you personally feel and you have every right to feel like that, but there is nothing objective to support that conclusion. I say that because literally for each and every storyline and character that is still ongoing, realistically there can be a meaningful resolution in the future books, and of all the storylines that are completed there isn't a single one that proves that Martin lost control of the story.

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A lot of characters stories have come to nothing, including POVs:  Quentyn I'm looking at you.  So, it doesn't really make sense to claim that no other remaining characters are going to see their stories end.  Quentyn proved to me that the author had indeed lost his focus.  As does Victarian having a POV. But that's me.  I have little hope for the books, I'm holding out to see what happens to my favorite characters which is going to be the show that gives me the ending not the author.  He's on to other things now.  In my opinion.

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Death of the prince of Dorne is not something I'd call "nothing", considering that there is wide array of consequences it can have on many other storylines. It'd be like saying that Ned's arc ultimately came to nothing, because he died without accomplishing anything personally. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Quentyn was as big a character as Ned, because that is clearly not the case, but that his death (and therefore his entire arc) can become very important in future books. And it's not just me, it's common sense.

Edited by StepStark

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There was zero need for him to have his own POV.  None.  Nada. Zero.  He could have come to Essos and died and caused Dorne to back Aegon just the same seen through Dany and Selmy's and Arianne's POV.  Elevating him to a POV character, ugh.  Unless the crackpot theory that he isn't dead is correct, then he was an absolute waste of time and a POV.

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I actually liked Quentyn's plot and found his ending fitting to the story. In the other hand, Brienne's chapters in AFFC were a complete drag. Arianne's and Areo's chapters were just insufferable. I can live with Victarion's.

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8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

There was zero need for him to have his own POV.  None.  Nada. Zero.  He could have come to Essos and died and caused Dorne to back Aegon just the same seen through Dany and Selmy's and Arianne's POV.  Elevating him to a POV character, ugh.  Unless the crackpot theory that he isn't dead is correct, then he was an absolute waste of time and a POV.

Sorry but once again it's just you and your personal feelings and not some objective assessment of a book. But just to remind you we were talking about something else. You said that his story came to nothing, which is obviously not the case necessarily as even you seem to admit. So once again: his story didn't come to nothing because what happened to him can influence a lot of things. In the other hand Rickon who on top of everything can't have anything that even resembles a proper arc at this stage because he's only 7-8 (Bran was the same age at the beginning but that was his and story's starting point which makes it unique) influences nothing with his death except on the cheapest emotional level, and that's called manipulation.

If you have a character who's presumed dead by other characters (though the audience knows the truth) and then you bring him back to the story just to kill him for real, that's just stupidity on a storytelling level. D&D did exactly that with Rickon which is one more in a long list of their monumental stupidities and because of that you are convinced that Martin is going to do the same in the books, even though so far he didn't do anything even similar with any of the characters? That makes no sense whatsoever, honestly.

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Basically nothing.

This show is no longer about the plots or characters from the books, and whatever they do with or to do them has little to do with the real story. Even if the same things happen on the outside the way it happens and the meaning of it might still be false.

Perhaps we can deduce some general tendencies, like Dany and Tyrion eventually coming to Westeros. The Others eventually attacking the Wall, the villains are going to die, etc.

Even the endings of the main characters might greatly differ in the end. The children have grown up. A 12-year-old Arya might have a completely different ending in the books than Maisie might get in the show. The same goes for Sansa and Sophie. In the show she could not only rule in own right as an adult woman but also have children of her own. But in the books Sansa is likely too young to have children.

George is writing the story so that it fits with the characters he has created. But the show doesn't care about that. They don't even care for the internal consistency of the characters they created (remember that TV Varys actually tried to kill Daenerys in the first season only to later be revealed to be some sort of Targaryen loyalist or that Lena loved Robert, not Rhaegar - until she suddenly did). They will just do what they like. And why shouldn't they, really. Those books don't yet exist, and George is not bound to stick to whatever he told them about his plans a couple of years ago. He'll do what he wants and they do as they want.

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On 2017-6-18 at 7:21 PM, Cas Stark said:

But the salient points are that almost certainly Ramsay and Roose will both die; Rickon will not be alive to carry on the legacy of House Stark, as many including myself have theorized; Sansa and LF will go North with the Vale army, one way or the other, Brienne and Jamie will both live and continue their story....., Davis will eventually ally with Jon, Stannis and Shireen will die, one way or the other.  

So, really, most of these points are going to end up in the same place as the books.  

And as bad as the Sansa Bolton story was on the show, it still ends up as a big nothing in the end, because there are no more Boltons left to be legitimized, they're all dead, Roose, Ramsay, Walda, they are defeated and their story is done.

Yes, this is what I mean.

ASOIAF will end up being a three-arc story, AGOT, ACOK and ASOS being the first, AFFC and ADWD being the second, and Winds and Dream of Spring the third and last.

They were 90% faithful to arc 1 and the War of the Five Kings, but they changed arc 2 quite a lot. But, in the end, it will be a pretty similar arc 3 in terms of the broader plot points.

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17 hours ago, StepStark said:

If you have a character who's presumed dead by other characters (though the audience knows the truth) and then you bring him back to the story just to kill him for real, that's just stupidity on a storytelling level. D&D did exactly that with Rickon which is one more in a long list of their monumental stupidities and because of that you are convinced that Martin is going to do the same in the books, even though so far he didn't do anything even similar with any of the characters? That makes no sense whatsoever, honestly.

Yep, poor kid didn't even get one line, possibly because the writers wanted to hide the fact that Art was 14 and his voice had broken. And his dog got it even worse, being deceased before he even reappeared.

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1. R+L=J

2. Shireen's burning

3. Hold the door

4. The White Walkers' origin

5. Valyrian steel kills White Walkers

6. Euron killed Balon

7. Jon will be crowned King in the North

8. Sansa and the Knights of the Vale will ride North

9. Rickon will die

10. The Hound is alive

11. Cersei will blow up King's Landing

12. Tyrion and Dany will meet

13. Dany will take over the khalasar

14. Dany will set sail for Westeros

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Basically nothing.

This show is no longer about the plots or characters from the books, and whatever they do with or to do them has little to do with the real story. Even if the same things happen on the outside the way it happens and the meaning of it might still be false.

Perhaps we can deduce some general tendencies, like Dany and Tyrion eventually coming to Westeros. The Others eventually attacking the Wall, the villains are going to die, etc.

Even the endings of the main characters might greatly differ in the end. The children have grown up. A 12-year-old Arya might have a completely different ending in the books than Maisie might get in the show. The same goes for Sansa and Sophie. In the show she could not only rule in own right as an adult woman but also have children of her own. But in the books Sansa is likely too young to have children.

George is writing the story so that it fits with the characters he has created. But the show doesn't care about that. They don't even care for the internal consistency of the characters they created (remember that TV Varys actually tried to kill Daenerys in the first season only to later be revealed to be some sort of Targaryen loyalist or that Lena loved Robert, not Rhaegar - until she suddenly did). They will just do what they like. And why shouldn't they, really. Those books don't yet exist, and George is not bound to stick to whatever he told them about his plans a couple of years ago. He'll do what he wants and they do as they want.

As time goes by i am more and more convinced that GRRM will never finish Asoiaf.

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