If Renly legitimized Edric "Baratheon" and Mya Baratheon wouldnt that open more doors??

[Bernie Mac]

19 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Then Renly is doomed. I am not the one who wrote it such that Renly's heirs (until he had some of his own) were Cersei's children and the Grand Maester (which the Citadel chose) was Tywin's man through and through. Maybe Renly couldn't see that he was a dead man if he didn't kill them, but the reader should know that there was no way Renly lived as long as there was Pycelle and a Lannister heir to the throne.

ETA: Like I said before, by killing Renly through supernatural means, GRRM muddied the fact that Renly's path to the throne was through the death of everyone he thought was his blood relative or else Renly ultimately died. There was no other way for Renly. That is why most Westerosi were rather horrified by what he was doing. To summarize, Renly killed all his blood relatives (with the possible exception of Shireen) or he failed.

That is not true. Before Robb was King some of his lords were wanting to side with Renly, the only Vale noble we saw took part in the war sided with Reny  and we have seen no such disgust in Dorne, the Iron Islands, the North or amongst his own supporters in the Reach and the Stormlands. 

I am not sure what Renly would have done next regarding his 'niece and nephews' but most of Westeros was not horrified about what he was doing. 

[bent branch]

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is not true. Before Robb was King some of his lords were wanting to side with Renly, the only Vale noble we saw took part in the war sided with Reny  and we have seen no such disgust in Dorne, the Iron Islands, the North or amongst his own supporters in the Reach and the Stormlands. 

I am not sure what Renly would have done next regarding his 'niece and nephews' but most of Westeros was not horrified about what he was doing. 

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Bernie Mac]

11 minutes ago, bent branch said:

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I could well be wrong, and I would be happy to be shown this. Do you have any evidence that most of Westeros was horrified over Renly's actions? Or is just intuition? 

[bent branch]

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I could well be wrong, and I would be happy to be shown this. Do you have any evidence that most of Westeros was horrified over Renly's actions? Or is just intuition? 

My experience with Renly fans is that they resist textural evidence that disagrees with their rosy view of Renly. It takes a lot of time and effort to gather such evidence and it isn't worth my time when I know you will just dismiss it anyway. Why don't you show me all this support for Renly in the text? Your handicap will be that they cannot be someone who has already decided to support Renly. Show me where there was a well of support that Renly had yet to tap.

 

[Bernie Mac]

24 minutes ago, bent branch said:

My experience with Renly fans is that they resist textural evidence that disagrees with their rosy view of Renly.

I'm not a Renly fan. I think his actions were incredibly opportunistic, self serving as well as self defensive. He spotted a civil war in the Riverlands and exploited it for his own benefit. 

24 minutes ago, bent branch said:

It takes a lot of time and effort to gather such evidence and it isn't worth my time when I know you will just dismiss it anyway.

All I asked if there was such evidence that most of the realm found Renly's actions horrific.

24 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Why don't you show me all this support for Renly in the text?

What support? I have not made a claim, you have. 

24 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Your handicap will be that they cannot be someone who has already decided to support Renly. Show me where there was a well of support that Renly had yet to tap.

Again, I think you may well be confusing me for someone else. At no point in my reply did I suggest any of this, all I asked is if you have any evidence that most of the realm found Renly's actions horrific. It is OK if this is not backed up with any actual evidence and is merely just head canon, I was merely querying your sources.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I think, if Ned had been smarter, he should've legitimized Edric by altering Robert's will in his deathbed. Then, using Renly's connections to the Tyrells, he should've brokered a marriage between Edric and Margaery. Renly would then be free to marry someone else (Ysilla Royce? Gwyneth Yronwood? Sansa?) for political gain. Stannis would be pissed as hell but he would have to go suck an egg because as far as he'd know it'd all be perfectly legal. 

Here's a "what if" scenario for you: What if you didn't comment on threads you obviously hate? Nothing of value would be lost, that's what would happen. 

what if  you didn't  tell another person what to do? Nothing of value would be lost. 

[Night Train to Kathmandu]

On 5/12/2017 at 1:41 PM, Stormking902 said:

If Renly was to make Roberts known bastards Baratheons and made Edric heir to Storms End not KL since the Tyrells still want Marg as queen and there sons/daughters heir to the throne, Renly would have 2 Baratheons to offer to either Robb or Sweet Robin, maybe even the Martells etc. Is this a smart move or dumb????

Renly doesn't have the authority to legitimize bastards until he wins the throne and after his coronation. 

[bent branch]

43 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm not a Renly fan. I think his actions were incredibly opportunistic, self serving as well as self defensive. He spotted a civil war in the Riverlands and exploited it for his own benefit. 

All I asked if there was such evidence that most of the realm found Renly's actions horrific.

What support? I have not made a claim, you have. 

Again, I think you may well be confusing me for someone else. At no point in my reply did I suggest any of this, all I asked is if you have any evidence that most of the realm found Renly's actions horrific. It is OK if this is not backed up with any actual evidence and is merely just head canon, I was merely querying your sources.  

Actually, you did make a claim. I have quoted it again below. My response to this was to say we would have to agree to disagree. You said this wasn't enough for you. You wanted me to give you quotes to back up my claim. I said that was more work than I wanted to do, so why didn't you give some quotes to back up your claim. In my six years on this forum it is my experience that the people who demand I provide quotes are not actually open to having their minds changed by seeing those quotes. Since you are new here I will give you one quote as a sign of good faith. It is from the Prologue of ACOK:
 

Quote

 

"Renly's made his own Kingsguard," the onetime smuggler explained, "but these seven don't wear white. Each one has his own color. Loras Tyrell's their Lord Commander."

It was just the sort of notion that would appeal to Renly Baratheon; a splendid new order of knighthood, with gorgeous new raiment to proclaim it. Even as a boy, Renly had loved bright colors and rich fabrics, and he had loved his games as well. "Look at me!" he would shout as ran laughing through the halls of Storm's End. "Look at me, I'm a dragon," or "Look at me, I'm a wizard," or "Look at me, look at me, I'm the rain god."

The bold little boy with wild black hair and laughing eyes was a man grown now, one-and-twenty, and still he played his games. Look at me, I'm a king, Cressen thought sadly. Oh, Renly, Renly, dear sweet child, do you know what you are doing? And would you care if you did? Is there anyone who cares for him but me?...

 

Cressen was heartbroken at Renly's actions. Other people's reactions are not so tender-hearted. Renly was breaking one of Westeros society's taboos. People were not going to look upon his actions kindly. Just as Tywin had many people who hated and despised him, Renly was also making himself enemies. Just because people recognize Renly's large army, it doesn't mean they respect him.

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is not true. Before Robb was King some of his lords were wanting to side with Renly, the only Vale noble we saw took part in the war sided with Reny  and we have seen no such disgust in Dorne, the Iron Islands, the North or amongst his own supporters in the Reach and the Stormlands. 

I am not sure what Renly would have done next regarding his 'niece and nephews' but most of Westeros was not horrified about what he was doing. 

 

[Humble Maester]

I guess I will have to post my general defense of Renly in this thread, as it is always needed when Renly is the topic.

Renly did not plan to usurp the throne initially, actually it was his third option.

First option was to depose Cersei in favor of Margaery Tyrell.

Second option was to use his and Ned's men to take "Robert's" children into custody to control the throne.

And only his third option was to usurp the children of his brother and become king himself.

He did this because Cersei was a clear and direct threat to his safety. We get indication of this from Cersei herself:

Quote

Jon Arryn put Robert Baratheon in her bed, and before he died he'd begun sniffing about her and Jaime as well. Eddard Stark took up right where Arryn had left off; his meddling had forced her to rid herself of Robert sooner than she would have liked, before she could deal with his pestilential brothers.

 

So, if you were to read the books as the author presented it (without any cracked pots):

Renly rebelled against Joffrey, whom he thought to be the child of his brother, because Joffrey's mother was aiming to destroy him.

 

 

Anyways on topic: Renly would of course not legitimize anyone who would be a threat to the inheritance of his future children, of whom he would be sure to have many in the following decades. Sans magic.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

I am flattered that the OP has taken my theory and made an interesting topic of it however for those proposing Edric as a threat to Renly my point was that Renly would adopt Edric as his own son.

 

Think of Augustus here he was the nephew to Julius Caesar mind you he was not a bastard he was adopted by Caesar in his will and carried on his family name. This could be a dangerous move I will acknowledge that but I think that it is interesting. 

 

We as fans are quick to accept that the North would  Jon Snow the bastard of Ned  Stark is it to hard to imagine the Stormlanders accepting Edric as their Lord ? These armies are sworn to these houses so if someone comes out of the woodwork and can be perceived as what these people love then I think they are powerful. It is no coincidence that a young Lannister has disappeared and a Baratheon bastard was made a blacksmith while another was given a war hammer at an early age. Make no mistake these kids can be used as powerful ponds and puppet lords this us Varys plan all along.

 Had Robert brought Mya Stone to court like he promised then yes she would have been a bride someone would have taken but he didn't so it is highly unlikely unless the next King tries to to rite by that family and marries her off. Stannis is doing this with the wildlings at the Well.

[Sullen]

17 hours ago, bent branch said:

Then Renly is doomed. I am not the one who wrote it such that Renly's heirs (until he had some of his own) were Cersei's children and the Grand Maester (which the Citadel chose) was Tywin's man through and through. Maybe Renly couldn't see that he was a dead man if he didn't kill them, but the reader should know that there was no way Renly lived as long as there was Pycelle and a Lannister heir to the throne.

ETA: Like I said before, by killing Renly through supernatural means, GRRM muddied the fact that Renly's path to the throne was through the death of everyone he thought was his blood relative or else Renly ultimately died. There was no other way for Renly. That is why most Westerosi were rather horrified by what he was doing. To summarize, Renly killed all his blood relatives (with the possible exception of Shireen) or he failed.

I think you seriously overestimate Pycelle's proactivity, especially in a scenario where Cersei has been expelled from King's Landing, and maybe even executed, and think that Tywin is so suicidal to rise against the entirety of Westeros while his grandchildren are kept hostage (if Tywin is even allowed to keep his lands and titles).

You are right about Renly being doomed though, but not because of the Lannisters, because of Varys. There's no way Varys lets a competent and unifying figure like Renly alive on the throne, especially when his death would like to another succession crisis and the division of the Seven Kingdoms, further aiding the eventually invasion of Aegon.

 

[devilish]

I fail to understand the advantages of legitimising Edric TBH. If Renly died then the Stormlands would have declared themselves to Stannis. The latter is a true Baratheon, he’s the true heir of both the crown and the Stormlands and he’s a battle hardened general who sticked around while his brother went fighting for his beloved Lyanna. That will render any possible alliance between the Tyrells and Edric useless paving the way for the rose to sleep with the lion

Assuming that the Stormlanders believed that Stannis had cursed his brother with dark magic then they would have killed him on the spot. However that will do Edric no good. Kinslaying and the use of dark magic would destroy Stannis reputation forever. People will start wondering whether Stannis used the same sort of magic that killed Renly to kill Robert and to influence Ned to lie against the rightful king of Westeros. The medieval folk used to be quite superstitious and xenophobic. Stannis red priestess won’t help his cause

That means that the Stormlanders would bend the knee to Joffrey, facilitating the way to more likely alliance between the Rose and the Stag.

What Renly or Stannis could have done was to promote Edric as Robert’s oldest and the rightful heir and bend the knee to him. Its not as silly as you may think. Renly would reduce Stannis to insignificance by stripping him completely from the Florent’s support. Mace would still have Margaery as queen which means that he’ll have full Tyrell support. After capturing KL Renly would then marry Sansa bringing the North to the fold and he would encourage a marriage between Mya Baratheon to either Lord Arryn or Royce’s son (the latter will then be given the title of warden of the east) to bring the Vale back to the fold too. Renly would hold great influence at court without risking the ire of the faith if one day he’s caught playing with Loras. 

Same can be said about Stannis. The stubborn stag has a long history with the Tyrells which makes him untrustworthy for them. He went on marrying a random Florent girl in what seems to be his response for what the Tyrells did to him during Robert’s rebellion. However Edric is a different story. He’s a clean slate for them and a perfect match for Margaery. Not to forget that through Edric, the Tyrells wouldn’t need to go begging for forgiveness to the Lannisters. 

Both moves made perfect sense (Renly sexual orientation + Stannis wife’s inability to have children, meant that they were unsuitable to start a solid dynasty on their own) and had the potential to blow the Lannister’s propaganda to tatters. The Baratheon brothers weren’t usurpers but loyal servants to the rightful king. All they want was to see Robert's seed sitting on the iron throne. 
 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

At this point even a non legitimized bastard could take the throne by force.

[bent branch]

4 hours ago, Sullen said:

I think you seriously overestimate Pycelle's proactivity, especially in a scenario where Cersei has been expelled from King's Landing, and maybe even executed, and think that Tywin is so suicidal to rise against the entirety of Westeros while his grandchildren are kept hostage (if Tywin is even allowed to keep his lands and titles).

You are right about Renly being doomed though, but not because of the Lannisters, because of Varys. There's no way Varys lets a competent and unifying figure like Renly alive on the throne, especially when his death would like to another succession crisis and the division of the Seven Kingdoms, further aiding the eventually invasion of Aegon.

 

Well, as Pycelle has openly admitted to betraying two kings (Aerys and Robert) to advance Tywin's interests, I didn't think I was making that much of a stretch to think he might poison Renly. In that case, Tywin wouldn't need to rise. He'd just move to KL to help Renly's heirs (Tywin's grandchildren). I don't see why Pycelle would be any more afraid of Renly than he was of Aerys and Robert.

3 hours ago, devilish said:

I fail to understand the advantages of legitimising Edric TBH. If Renly died then the Stormlands would have declared themselves to Stannis. The latter is a true Baratheon, he’s the true heir of both the crown and the Stormlands and he’s a battle hardened general who sticked around while his brother went fighting for his beloved Lyanna. That will render any possible alliance between the Tyrells and Edric useless paving the way for the rose to sleep with the lion

Assuming that the Stormlanders believed that Stannis had cursed his brother with dark magic then they would have killed him on the spot. However that will do Edric no good. Kinslaying and the use of dark magic would destroy Stannis reputation forever. People will start wondering whether Stannis used the same sort of magic that killed Renly to kill Robert and to influence Ned to lie against the rightful king of Westeros. The medieval folk used to be quite superstitious and xenophobic. Stannis red priestess won’t help his cause

That means that the Stormlanders would bend the knee to Joffrey, facilitating the way to more likely alliance between the Rose and the Stag.

What Renly or Stannis could have done was to promote Edric as Robert’s oldest and the rightful heir and bend the knee to him. Its not as silly as you may think. Renly would reduce Stannis to insignificance by stripping him completely from the Florent’s support. Mace would still have Margaery as queen which means that he’ll have full Tyrell support. After capturing KL Renly would then marry Sansa bringing the North to the fold and he would encourage a marriage between Mya Baratheon to either Lord Arryn or Royce’s son (the latter will then be given the title of warden of the east) to bring the Vale back to the fold too. Renly would hold great influence at court without risking the ire of the faith if one day he’s caught playing with Loras. 

Same can be said about Stannis. The stubborn stag has a long history with the Tyrells which makes him untrustworthy for them. He went on marrying a random Florent girl in what seems to be his response for what the Tyrells did to him during Robert’s rebellion. However Edric is a different story. He’s a clean slate for them and a perfect match for Margaery. Not to forget that through Edric, the Tyrells wouldn’t need to go begging for forgiveness to the Lannisters. 

Both moves made perfect sense (Renly sexual orientation + Stannis wife’s inability to have children, meant that they were unsuitable to start a solid dynasty on their own) and had the potential to blow the Lannister’s propaganda to tatters. The Baratheon brothers weren’t usurpers but loyal servants to the rightful king. All they want was to see Robert's seed sitting on the iron throne. 
 

Robert ordered Stannis to marry Selyse and like the dutiful brother he was he married her.

[devilish]

11 hours ago, bent branch said:

 

Robert ordered Stannis to marry Selyse and like the dutiful brother he was he married her.

Where is it specified that Robert ordered Stannis to do such a thing? By that time Stannis was already a Lord. I cant see Ned ordering the Greatjon to marry someone he didn't like

[bent branch]

4 hours ago, devilish said:

Where is it specified that Robert ordered Stannis to do such a thing? By that time Stannis was already a Lord. I cant see Ned ordering the Greatjon to marry someone he didn't like

By what time? It is obvious from the nonsense you wrote before that you have no idea about how Stannis and Selyse came to be married. Stannis married Selyse about the same time Robert married Cersei and for the same reason. Both marriages were intended to help stabilized Westeros after Robert's Rebellion. I have no idea why Stannis marrying Selyse would piss off the Tyrells. The Tyrells had no female family members to offer at the time Stannis and Selyse's marriage happened. As for the authority Robert had to order Stannis to marry Selyse, he was (1) Stannis' older brother. In Westeros, younger brothers are supposed to obey their older brothers. Another example of this is Hoster Tully trying to get his brother Blackfish to make a politically advantageous marriage. Blackfish said no and Hoster kicked him out. Because that is the way things work in Westeros. (2) Robert was the king and he can arrange marriages. An example of this that we see is the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa. Joffrey was able to order their wedding since as the king he could stand in as a parent/guardian. It is true people ordered to marry can choose not to, but there are generally consequences for not obeying. Really, both men and women up and down the social ladder in Westeros can be forced into marriage.

As for a quote, why don't you give one where someone says Stannis married Selyse to piss off the Tyrells. Instead of insisting the other person provide a quote, why don't you find one support your position first. I am actually looking for the section of text talking about Stannis marrying at Robert's order (I think it is in a Cersei chapter). But as I said elsewhere it takes a lot of time and effort to find these quotes. You shouldn't be making claims sans quotes yourself.

[devilish]

 

 

The cadet House Baratheon of Dragonstone was formed in 284 AC. Stannis married Selyse in 287 AC ie 3 years later. A king has a lot of power in his hands but he can’t force a Lord to marry someone he didn’t wanted. Sure he can pressure him to do so but he can’t force him to do so.

Now why I think the Tyrells were pissed off the marriage? It’s simple. The Tyrells spent most of the war sieging Storm’s end. That suited both Tyrells and Robert well as it kept 60k troops safe (for the Tyrells) and far away from the conflict as possible (for Robert) but it kind of sucked for Stannis. He was left in command of a fortress were people were starving to death. Had you ever met people who were in that situation? All my grandparents suffered from that during WW2 and I assure you it tend to let you a bit sour afterwards.

As Robert’s younger brother Stannis was heir to the king but he was also heavily dependent on his brother’s whims. However that changed as soon as the House Baratheon of Dragonstone was formed. Stannis was no a Lord, free to marry who he wanted. And guess what he did? He married off a Florent ie a girl whose family had an equally powerful claim to the Reach as the Tyrells did. Suddenly the King’s heir had joined houses with a rival House whose got an equal claim to the Tyrells land.

That lead to a series of events which in isolation might be labelled as coincidence but when took together it makes full sense.

a-      Robert soiling Stannis wedding bed by sleeping with guess what? A Florent girl with nearly equal nobility standing to Stannis bride.

b-      Robert giving Renly the Stormlands with the latter making it first priority to get friendly with the Tyrells

c-       The Tyrells fleeing the Stormlands after Renly’s death only to turn out at Blackwater’s bay to

Don’t forget that after Robert’s rebellion many Baratheon friendly regions had suffered heavy casualties. The only 2 superpowers left standing were the Lannisters and the Tyrells. Robert married Cersei to bring back the Lions into the fold. The last thing the old stag needed is his brother and heir to marry within a pretender family that can easily piss off the rose.

Spoiler

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[Bernie Mac]

23 hours ago, bent branch said:

 

Robert ordered Stannis to marry Selyse and like the dutiful brother he was he married her.

That is never said in the books.