my theory on why jon snow was killed.

[snow is the man]

From a story point of view I think it will make him able to quit the nightswatch. It would kind of be an out to do that. Thoughts?

[Winter prince]

1 hour ago, snow is the man said:

From a story point of view I think it will make him able to quit the nightswatch. It would kind of be an out to do that. Thoughts?

There are a lot of threads on this that debate the subject back and forth.  My theory is that Jon Snow's wounds do not turn out to be fatal and I won't get into my tangent of what happens afterwards.

Now to open this up; your theory is sound, dying and being resurrected would be a loophole to his oath in the most simple terms.  But now the 7K know that Jon Snow, the bastard of Winterfell, is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch so what happens when he runs into some lord?  Will they believe him?  I know I wouldn't. 

[theblackdragonI]

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

From a story point of view I think it will make him able to quit the nightswatch. It would kind of be an out to do that. Thoughts?

You should include spoilers tags in the title for those who haven't finished the series yet.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

From a story point of view I think it will make him able to quit the nightswatch. It would kind of be an out to do that. Thoughts?

Jon doesn't get out of the N/W gracefully because he already broke his vows and committed treason.  He started a war to help Arya.  Why even bother to give him an out when he already did those very bad things.  It's no longer possible for him to leave the watch and still be decent. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

This presupposes that he is in fact dead. We don't know that he is. Until the next book comes out, he is in a state of ambiguity and is known by many to be Schrodinger's Direwolf.

However, yes it is possible that GRRM will use this as a means of getting him out. The vows include "until my death." It's presupposes one death and there are no guidelines for what to do if you come back from death, because nobody has (and the wights don't count). The fact that Jon was (possibly) murdered by fellow NW brothers strengthens the case for being done with the whole thing.

Jon's character however may keep him from leaving. Unless he deems it absolutely necessary to rally the North in order to face the Others, I don't see him abandoning the Watch. And even if he does think he needs to unite the North, that doesn't necessarily mean he has to leave the Watch to do it. Lords Commander are not restricted from leaving the grounds. They're allowed to travel on NW business.

24 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Jon doesn't get out of the N/W gracefully because he already broke his vows and committed treason.  He started a war to help Arya.  Why even bother to give him an out when he already did those very bad things.  It's no longer possible for him to leave the watch and still be decent. 

1. No he did not break his vows. Vows include: take no wife (he took none, and no sleeping with Ygritte is not the same thing), hold no lands (he holds none), father no children (he fathered none), wear no crowns (he's worn none), win no glory (he certainly hasn't won any glory). In going over to the Wildlings he was following orders given to him by a superior officer of the NW and thus upholding his vow to pledge his life and his honor to the NW. He was the only one who had a chance to find out what Mance was up to and how bad the threat was from the Free Folk. Nothing broken there. Halfhand told him to do everything they asked of him, and that includes Ygritte. He was on his "watch" the entire time.

2. You can't commit treason if you have no allegiance to a nation. The vows have them guarding the realms of men, not the realms of the Iron Throne.

3. He did not start a war. Ramsay (allegedly, it might not have been him threatened to come up to Castle Black and destroy Jon and everybody else, but even that is not a war. That's a personal grievance. 

4. When Mance and company set out to rescue "Arya" they were under the impression that she had already left Winterfell, thus they were only going to intercept her and make sure she didn't die on her way north. Huge difference between not letting someone get lost or freeze to death and actively interfering. And it wasn't Jon's idea anyway. He may take credit for it in his mind but that was Mel's plan, not his, and as she is neither under his command nor a prisoner, he can't really control her. If he'd said no, she probably would have done it anyway.

[Clegane'sPup]

38 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Jon doesn't get out of the N/W gracefully because he already broke his vows and committed treason.  He started a war to help Arya.  Why even bother to give him an out when he already did those very bad things.  It's no longer possible for him to leave the watch and still be decent. 

Okay, I get it. I am dense. LC Snow agreed to send Mance to intercept a girl on a horse near Long Lake.  Mance and his women for some reason went to WF.

3 hours ago, snow is the man said:

From a story point of view I think it will make him able to quit the nightswatch. It would kind of be an out to do that. Thoughts?

LC Snow was killed according to the thread title. My thought is that Jon was wounded.

BUT if he is dead and then brought back to life he would still be LC Snow. If he is still LC Snow he is obligated to his vows.

 

 

 

[Aegon VII]

5 hours ago, snow is the man said:

From a story point of view I think it will make him able to quit the nightswatch. It would kind of be an out to do that. Thoughts?

When I saw the thread title I was gonna hop on and suggest exactly this. So yes, I completely agree!

[teej6]

3 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Jon doesn't get out of the N/W gracefully because he already broke his vows and committed treason.  He started a war to help Arya.  Why even bother to give him an out when he already did those very bad things.  It's no longer possible for him to leave the watch and still be decent. 

Which war did Jon start? Up until ADWD, Jon hasn't started any war. If you are implying his response to the Pink Letter he was only rallying his men to defend the NW and his (the LC) person from a evil raving lunatic. Still no war was started, allhe did was rally his troops. Now if you are referring to Jon's tacit approval of Mel's plan to send Mance to rescue a girl on a horse fleeing and seen by a lake, I still see no textual basis for "Jon started a war". He did not kidnap Ramsay's bride from WF. He thought he was helping his sister who was half way to the wall of her own accord. Jon's choices in dealing with Stannis or letting Mel send Mance to help a fleeing girl he thought to be Arya, or rallying his men to answer Ramsay's challenge are by no means easy choices for him. And if you've read the books you'll know how Jon weighs his choices against his vows and how he makes every attempt not to break his vows. 

[El Guapo]

Giving Jon a "loophole" to get out of the NW doesn't seem to fit George's style.  It would be a major cop out if you ask me.

 

[Gargarax]

7 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Giving Jon a "loophole" to get out of the NW doesn't seem to fit George's style.  It would be a major cop out if you ask me.

Exactly. Unlike the show, the books don't put plot before character but the other way around. What happens to Jon at the end of ADWD is the logical conclusion of his arc in that book, not a cheap twist to free him of his vows. Martin is far too skilled a writer that to pull stuff like that, I'm sure.

[velo-knight]

Honestly, if any loophole is likely, it will be some weird combination of a destruction of the Watch and a desertion / defection of it's members. The wildling force at Castle Black will not tolerate the assassination or attempted assassination of their new - for now, let's call him Prince-beyond*-the-Wall.  Jon's NW supporters might not, and with the death of many Watchmen and concomitant desertion of any surviving conspirators or their associates, the remaining Watchmen might be radicalized against the Boltons or the Watch traditions. They might defect en masse, leaving no Watch at all; or they might simply undertake a radical new vision for the Watch now that nothing binds them besides Jon. In time, even the very causes of the conflict between our new Night's King and the Boltons may be forgotten; and whenever Jon recovers or is resurrected, he may be the head of a rebellion whether he likes it or not. At this point the Watch might begin to resemble it's original incarnation: a small band of heroes and their supporters, united by a desire to stop Winter, but in no way nonpartisan or sworn to <insert distraction here>.

 

 

 

*Below?

[Maxxine]

This has always been my thoughts on Jon. Yeah it's a loophole but I've always felt like Jon has to leave the Watch/Wall at some point. He's seemingly too important of a character to stay so geographically removed from everyone else. I do think he's going to come back to the Wall eventually to fight the Others. Also, for everyone saying it's not in Jon's character to use this loophole is forgetting that when he's resurrected he's more than likely going to come back with a different personality. That groundwork has already been set with Beric & Stoneheart. 

[Nevets]

Jon is heavily dedicated to the Watch and its mission, so his taking advantage of a possible loophole is quite unlikely, in my view.  The only way he leaves is if he sees it as the only way to further the Watch's mission.  That would likely involve taking a political position to rally support for the fight against the Others.  Otherwise, no, I don't see him leaving, "death" or no "death".

[Victor Newman]

15 hours ago, snow is the man said:

From a story point of view I think it will make him able to quit the nightswatch. It would kind of be an out to do that. Thoughts?

It's simple.  This is the story of the heart in conflict.  Jon chose wrongly and there rightly are consequences for that.  Martin wanted to show his readers that there are severe consequences for those who screw up an important job.

[Victor Newman]

with the post below.  It would be cheap to get Jon off the hook from his vows this way.  Best to just keep him dead otherwise the significance of death loses its meaning.  We've had Beric come back to life.  Weymar Royce in the form of a wight.  Catelyn came back to life.  Mellisandre is hundreds of years old.  Keep Jon dead and let's press on with the plot.

6 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Giving Jon a "loophole" to get out of the NW doesn't seem to fit George's style.  It would be a major cop out if you ask me.

 

To those who defend Jon, I say this.  He already broke his vows many times.  He rode off to join Robb's campaign.  It was Samwell's honor that brought him back, not his.  Jon allowed Mance Rayder to walk, that's a violation of his duties as the lord commander and a brother of the watch.  He sent Mance to fetch his sister.  That is war by any standards since she is now the wife of Ramsey Bolton.  Or are you defenders now going to claim that Jon intended to return her to Ramsay?  I didn't think so.  Jon had no intentions of returning Arya to Ramsay.  That is starting a war. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

15 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

You should include spoilers tags in the title for those who haven't finished the series yet.

This isn't necessary since this part of the forum is for those who have finished the books.

 

It's quite funny to see people ranting with Jon's potential loophole when they turn the blind eye to Dany’s whole storyline which is one huge loophole.

13 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

1. No he did not break his vows. Vows include: take no wife (he took none, and no sleeping with Ygritte is not the same thing), hold no lands (he holds none), father no children (he fathered none), wear no crowns (he's worn none), win no glory (he certainly hasn't won any glory). In going over to the Wildlings he was following orders given to him by a superior officer of the NW and thus upholding his vow to pledge his life and his honor to the NW. He was the only one who had a chance to find out what Mance was up to and how bad the threat was from the Free Folk. Nothing broken there. Halfhand told him to do everything they asked of him, and that includes Ygritte. He was on his "watch" the entire time.

2. You can't commit treason if you have no allegiance to a nation. The vows have them guarding the realms of men, not the realms of the Iron Throne.

3. He did not start a war. Ramsay (allegedly, it might not have been him threatened to come up to Castle Black and destroy Jon and everybody else, but even that is not a war. That's a personal grievance. 

4. When Mance and company set out to rescue "Arya" they were under the impression that she had already left Winterfell, thus they were only going to intercept her and make sure she didn't die on her way north. Huge difference between not letting someone get lost or freeze to death and actively interfering. And it wasn't Jon's idea anyway. He may take credit for it in his mind but that was Mel's plan, not his, and as she is neither under his command nor a prisoner, he can't really control her. If he'd said no, she probably would have done it anyway.

[Maxxine]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Jon is heavily dedicated to the Watch and its mission, so his taking advantage of a possible loophole is quite unlikely, in my view. 

While it's possible he won't take advantage I think you're ignoring two things with this argument.

1) People are supposed to come back changed when they're resurrected. Just because he was dedicated before doesn't mean he's going to come back with the same dedication.

2) Even taking out of consideration the groundwork that's been built for changed personalities upon resurrection. The guy just got stabbed in the back by people he believed to be his brothers. That has got to make him jaded and have an effect. I can have all the dedication in the world to my job, but if people at my job screw me over that's no doubt going to have an effect on my dedication to the job.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

I can have all the dedication in the world to my job, but if people at my job screw me over that's no doubt going to have an effect on my dedication to the job.

You would had stopped be dedicated to your job or liking your co-workers?

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, Maxxine said:

While it's possible he won't take advantage I think you're ignoring two things with this argument.

1) People are supposed to come back changed when they're resurrected. Just because he was dedicated before doesn't mean he's going to come back with the same dedication.

2) Even taking out of consideration the groundwork that's been built for changed personalities upon resurrection. The guy just got stabbed in the back by people he believed to be his brothers. That has got to make him jaded and have an effect. I can have all the dedication in the world to my job, but if people at my job screw me over that's no doubt going to have an effect on my dedication to the job.

1.  If anything, those who come back from the dead seem to have more of what drove them before, not less.  Beric was even more dedicated to helping the smallfolk of the RL, and Catelyn was more vengeful than before.  And that's assuming he's dead, which I'm not convinced of.  So I don't see death as making Jon less committed to fighting the Others.

2.  From what we can tell, it seems to be a comparatively small faction of the NW that stabbed him.  I think the vast majority of the NW are either supporters, neutral, or, while they oppose him, don't support killing him.  Just because a small faction tries to kill you, you're going to say "the hell with it'?  I doubt it.

[Maxxine]

1 hour ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

You would had stopped be dedicated to your job or liking your co-workers?

One leads to the other. It's very difficult to enjoy your job and thus be dedicated to it if you don't like the people you work with. For Jon I would think it would be even worse. It's not even that he dislikes them, he can't trust them.