70 posts in this topic

Rhegar does not take part in the war for months on end, then the question of 3 KG in the middle of nowhere is a mystery.  Who commands them and what are their orders.

Let's look at the mad Kings mo 

Jamie is his hostage against Tywin

Ela is his hostage against Dorne 

He turned up at Harrenhall to stop any plotting

He does not trust Rhaegar or anyone else for that matter 3 KG are not protecting anyone they are there to ensure his son's loyalty

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another possibility is that they are "officially" there for that reason but in actuality are looking after Rhaegar's soon-to-be child because of their closeness to him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope. Why would they then help him kidnap Lyanna and bring her from the riverlands to the ToJ? Why would they then stay at the ToJ when Rhaegar went off without them to KL and then to the Battle of the Trident leading Aerys's forces? Poor, baseless theory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Why would they then help him kidnap Lyanna and bring her from the riverlands to the ToJ? Why would they then stay at the ToJ when Rhaegar went off without them to KL and then to the Battle of the Trident leading Aerys's forces? Poor, baseless theory.

Also, why would they fight Ned and his men?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting. These guys are the Kingsguard, they are famously, irrationally loyal, so logically whatever they are doing they have to be ultimately following Aerys's orders, not Rhaegar's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So. They're gaolers. They are holding an underage girl hostage. And yet, they're immensely proud of their mission, as if what they're doing is the most important, most noble, most honorable thing in their lives.

And the girl's brother would later call them "a marvel, a shining lesson to the world", instead of something more along the lines of "conceited pieces of shit".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Nope. Why would they then help him kidnap Lyanna and bring her from the riverlands to the ToJ? Why would they then stay at the ToJ when Rhaegar went off without them to KL and then to the Battle of the Trident leading Aerys's forces? Poor, baseless theory.

Why would they stay knowing that woe to the usurper has they been there?

Think you are forgetting about the Lord commander Hightower was not with them and was sent to get Rhaegar to pull his finger out. 

 

Theory is based on how the mad king has delt with his subjects, the rebelion started due to him calling on a Lord paramount to allow his 2 wards to die who happen to be 2 Lord paramounts themselves.  Smart guy, bearing in mind he pissed off a 4th and has threatend the family of a 5th, but no I'm sure he lent Rhaegar 3/7 of his body guard to sit around all day; since his paranoia has subsided now that half the realm in open rebellion.

 

If he buys into the Targ prophecy how come he skips Rhaegars line altogether?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

I'm sure he lent Rhaegar 3/7 of his body guard to sit around all day

As a matter of fact, he did lend him 2/7 - Whent and Dayne - and as GRRM said, Rhaegar was percectly able to order them around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The real telling piece of the story is after Hightower was sent to The tower he stayed.  Why would the White Bill stay when his king was about to be under seige. I can see why Whent and Dayne would be there, they are close with Rhaegar and probably support him to take over the thrown.  Having Hightower stay and "protect" Lyanna and her child tells me Rhaegar has possibly userpt Areys and if he were to win at the Trident he was going to take over the throne.  Either Hightower played a similar role as Lord Commander Cole as being a king maker. Or Rhaegar convinced him that Areys' time was over.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Rhegar does not take part in the war for months on end, then the question of 3 KG in the middle of nowhere is a mystery.  Who commands them and what are their orders.

Let's look at the mad Kings mo 

Jamie is his hostage against Tywin

Ela is his hostage against Dorne 

He turned up at Harrenhall to stop any plotting

He does not trust Rhaegar or anyone else for that matter 3 KG are not protecting anyone they are there to ensure his son's loyalty

Whent and Dayne were involved in the incident where Lyanna went with them. The White Bull was sent to find them, he did. If it was a hostage situation, they could have taken Lyanna back to KL. Instead, they stayed. So it is far more complex than a hostage situation 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Damein Blackfyre true king said:

The real telling piece of the story is after Hightower was sent to The tower he stayed.  Why would the White Bill stay when his king was about to be under seige. I can see why Whent and Dayne would be there, they are close with Rhaegar and probably support him to take over the thrown.  Having Hightower stay and "protect" Lyanna and her child tells me Rhaegar has possibly userpt Areys and if he were to win at the Trident he was going to take over the throne.  Either Hightower played a similar role as Lord Commander Cole as being a king maker. Or Rhaegar convinced him that Areys' time was over.  

Except that it is Hightower who says that Aerys would have been sitting the IT if they had been in KL, which doesn't sound much like supporting a takeover.

There could have been other ways to make Hightower stay - if Aerys didn't give a direct command that Hightower was to return to KL with Rhaegar, then Rhaegar had the authority to simply order Hightower to stay. And even if Hightower did have such a command, Rhaegar still had leverage on him: he could have made Hightower' staying a condition for his own return to KL. And since Rhaegar's return was more important that Hightower's, the old White Bull would have had to stay. 

I don't think that any of the KG was happy to stay, but it was vital that none of them got near Aerys, who would use their vows of obedience to find out Lyanna's whereabouts, and then he would have a hostage against both the rebels and Rhaegar. And that was a situation that Rhaegar absolutely couldn't allow to happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On Invalid Date at 3:10 PM, Damein Blackfyre true king said:

The real telling piece of the story is after Hightower was sent to The tower he stayed.  Why would the White Bill stay when his king was about to be under seige. I can see why Whent and Dayne would be there, they are close with Rhaegar and probably support him to take over the thrown.  Having Hightower stay and "protect" Lyanna and her child tells me Rhaegar has possibly userpt Areys and if he were to win at the Trident he was going to take over the throne.  Either Hightower played a similar role as Lord Commander Cole as being a king maker. Or Rhaegar convinced him that Areys' time was over.  

Disagree.  Based on what Hightower said, if they had had their way, King Aerys would yet still sit the throne.  That is proof those men were loyal to King Aerys all the way to the bitter end.  They would have never supported Rhaegar if he had tried to usurp his father.  They would have cut down the ungrateful dick if he had tried.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/13/2017 at 2:49 PM, Ygrain said:

As a matter of fact, he did lend him 2/7 - Whent and Dayne - and as GRRM said, Rhaegar was percectly able to order them around.

Not sure if Aerys lent him them or they simply followed him. Whent helped plan the Tournament at Harrenhal and Dayne was his closed friend. If any two were plotting with Rhaegar it would have been those two. Or they could simply be guarding the crown prince as per their orders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about both Rhaegar and Lyanna were kidnapped on Aerys' orders. Lyanna's baby is not Rhaegar's, but Aerys', and Rhaegar was forced to join the battle under threat of torture for Lyanna.

In this way, the KG remain true to their vows to obey the king, and then are on hand to protect the new prince -- even from his uncle -- after the king is slain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find the events around the ToJ incident to be very confusing.

How is it  two members of the KG accompany Rhaegar when he carries off Lyanna?

How is it Rhaegar allows Lyanna's father and brother to die under such hideous circumstances?

Why does Rhaegar only turn up for the military response to the RR after the Battle of the Bells?

Apparently GRRM has promised we'll have all the details of RR cleared up before the end of ASOIAF

In the meantime, as yet I only have questions, no theories.

Yet at the end of the day I can't help wondering if @Coolbeard the Exile hasn't the right of it:

On 5/13/2017 at 4:12 PM, Coolbeard the Exile said:

George said it was a fever dream. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Disagree.  Based on what Hightower said, if they had had their way, King Aerys would yet still sit the throne.  That is proof those men were loyal to King Aerys all the way to the bitter end.  They would have never supported Rhaegar if he had tried to usurp his father.  They would have cut down the ungrateful dick if he had tried.

So this is where we defiantly disagree.  It was said that there was definitely 2 factions in kings landing before the rebellion where you have several people who were loyal to Rhaegar and those who were loyal to Areys.  Dayne was Rhaegar's closest confident so close that both connington and Selmy are jealous about that. Whent whose family threw the harrenhal tourney is speculated to be on orders by Rhaegar and possibly Tywin on the prize for the Knights competing in said tourney. Finally, Rhagaer tells Jamie that when he returns a great number of changes will occur and even a great council.

 So it sounds like to me that Rhaegar has made a decision  to userpt the crown.  The fact that he traveled with Went and Dayne, his closest allies in the kings guard and alerted his old squire that changes were going to occur he had begun the process.  The strangest part is the White Bull and house Hightower.  Now here is the tin foil part.  I think that Hightower stayed because he supported his new king in Rhagaer.  But that's my tinfoil.  Regardless we know that the white bull came to the tower on the orders Areys to bring Rhaegar back to take control of Royal forces but stayed after interacting with Rhaegar.  Why did he stay? did Rhaegar order him?, did he flip sides to the Rhaegar's side?  We don't know.  But we do know that 3/7 of the strength of the kings guard were at the tower not guarding Rhaegar, wife or his children, or his mother or siblings.  Only Jaime, Rhaegar's former squire who has had instructions to stay put from the crown prince himself remains with the king.  It seems like there was a faction of the kings  guard who were following the orders of Rhaegar and not Areys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaime squired for Crakehall Tywin suggested Rhaegar but was put in his place.

 

The conversation Jaime and Rhaegar had suggested Jaime wanted glory still dreaming of being Arthur Dayne, while Rhaegar suggests that he could give an order to replace Jaime with Darry if he wished but his father was mentally unstable and daered not to take Jaime away but left the consequence unsaid; wheather the King was a danger to himself or others or both

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Not sure if Aerys lent him them or they simply followed him. Whent helped plan the Tournament at Harrenhal and Dayne was his closed friend. If any two were plotting with Rhaegar it would have been those two. Or they could simply be guarding the crown prince as per their orders.

That's what I meant by Aerys lending them to Rhaegar - they were his assigned bodyguards.

10 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I find the events around the ToJ incident to be very confusing.

How is it  two members of the KG accompany Rhaegar when he carries off Lyanna?

See above - they are his bodyguards and follow his orders.

10 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

How is it Rhaegar allows Lyanna's father and brother to die under such hideous circumstances?

Most likely, he didn't learn in time to do anything about it. Don't forget: long distances, slow communication means.

10 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Why does Rhaegar only turn up for the military response to the RR after the Battle of the Bells?

The above + the problematic relationship with Aerys, most likely. 

10 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Yet at the end of the day I can't help wondering if @Coolbeard the Exile hasn't the right of it:

Nope. GRRM did say that it was a fever dream and added that our dreams are not always literal, i.e. the dream shouldn't be taken as a recording of what transpired. Furthermore, for Ned it is an old dream, i.e. the likes of which he had dreamt before, some of its elements are labelled "as it had been in life" and he elaborates on some elements while awake - so while the dream is not precise, it is based on reality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/13/2017 at 9:28 AM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Rhegar does not take part in the war for months on end, then the question of 3 KG in the middle of nowhere is a mystery.  Who commands them and what are their orders.

Let's look at the mad Kings mo 

Jamie is his hostage against Tywin

Ela is his hostage against Dorne 

He turned up at Harrenhall to stop any plotting

He does not trust Rhaegar or anyone else for that matter 3 KG are not protecting anyone they are there to ensure his son's loyalty

 

You mean they are holding Lyanna and the hypothetical baby hostage to ensure Rhaegar's cooperation?

Wouldn't you think Lyanna would make a better hostage against Robert and Ned (the people in the process of toppling the dynasty?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.