ToJ 3KG answered

[kissdbyfire]

@The Twinslayer LOL

[Chris Mormont]

On 5/23/2017 at 4:08 PM, Ygrain said:

You said they fought to get Lyanna back, and that was not correct. No banners were called after her kidnapping - it was at the beginning of the causative chain but not the reason they fought.

They fought in part to get Lyanna back, but also to avenge Rickard and Brandon's deaths, to overthrow a mad king and to live since Aerys wanted their heads. 

Of course no one called the banners when Lyanna went missing.  Brandon flew off the handle and rode for KL. I do not believe the kidnapping of Lyanna would have been reason enough for the North to go to war with Aerys.  Think of the more recent events.  The North did not go to war to free Sansa and Arya, they went to war first to free Ned and then to avenge his death.

Ned was able to call his banners so his lords would protect him against the threats of the crown and to avenge his father and brother's deaths, but ultimately he still wanted to get Lyanna back.

Aerys wanted Ned and Robert's heads because he knew they would call their banners and take revenge.

 

[The Twinslayer]

5 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

They fought in part to get Lyanna back, but also to avenge Rickard and Brandon's deaths, to overthrow a mad king and to live since Aerys wanted their heads. 

Of course no one called the banners when Lyanna went missing.  Brandon flew off the handle and rode for KL. I do not believe the kidnapping of Lyanna would have been reason enough for the North to go to war with Aerys.  Think of the more recent events.  The North did not go to war to free Sansa and Arya, they went to war first to free Ned and then to avenge his death.

Ned was able to call his banners so his lords would protect him against the threats of the crown and to avenge his father and brother's deaths, but ultimately he still wanted to get Lyanna back.

Aerys wanted Ned and Robert's heads because he knew they would call their banners and take revenge.

 

I think people are forgetting Robert in all of this.  We learn at the very beginning of AGOT, from Robert (and Ned agrees), that Robert vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he had done to Lyanna.  In other words, Robert was prepared to kill the Crown Prince over Lyanna's disappearance.  Not Brandon's death, not the deaths of Rickard or the others, but over Lyanna's disappearance.  In that regard, Robert is much like his ancestor Lyonel Barratheon, who went to war when the Crown Prince broke a betrothal to Lyonel's daughter.  

So once Robert made that vow, the war was on.  The big question is whether Rickard, Jon Arryn, and/or Hoster Tully would have followed Robert into that fight.  I think Rickard would have had little choice -- if Robert went to war to retrieve Lyanna and Rickard sat it out (and worse, if Robert died as a result), he would look like a coward.  And we know how protective the northern lords are of a daughter or Winterfell, since they were willing to die fighting for "the Ned's little girl" even when that fight seemed hopeless.  And Jon Arryn would have had a hard time sitting it out while the crown slaughtered his former wards.  After that, Hoster would be brought in the same way he was in the real story -- marriages for his daughters after it became clear that Robert could win.     

I think that is why Barristan believes that thousands died because of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and it is why Dany believes that the fight between Rhaegar and Robert at the Trident was a fight over Lyanna.  

[SeaWitch]

The underlying horror is that a living Lyanna would have been escorted back and married to Robert, regardless.  (Probably with a somewhat Lannister-flavoured 'death from melancholy' in her near future.). But Ned would have taken her back and handed her over, as honour demanded. Even if she'd gone with Rhaegar willingly, and now had to marry the guy who stuck a war-hammer through his chest.  She would not be allowed to keep the baby, and unless Ned spirited it away, it's entirely likely to be killed.

 

[LynnS]

48 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

The underlying horror is that a living Lyanna would have been escorted back and married to Robert, regardless.  (Probably with a somewhat Lannister-flavoured 'death from melancholy' in her near future.). But Ned would have taken her back and handed her over, as honour demanded. Even if she'd gone with Rhaegar willingly, and now had to marry the guy who stuck a war-hammer through his chest.  She would not be allowed to keep the baby, and unless Ned spirited it away, it's entirely likely to be killed.

 

Even if Jon wasn't Rhaegar's, who would believe it?  Certainly not Robert.  So double jeopardy.  Given that Cersei married Robert; no child of uncertain identity with royal blood either way is likely to survive.   Better for Ned to lie to everyone, including Robert.

 

[SeaWitch]

That still leaves Lyanna without her baby, and stuck with Robert, who has all the signs of being the overly possessive, controlling type, even for their culture.  A lot of it is all about pride, and he's likely to remind her of being 'rescued' and how grateful she should be, especially since he married her, so it's all okay now.

What happens the first time Lyanna fights back, or he hits her like he did Cersei? 

(When did Benjen take the Black? The Queen's brother in the Kingsguard seems to be becoming tradition.)

She's in an impossible position, always was from the time her father decided to betroth her to Robert.  Whether those men were keeping her safe, or keeping her from running, there was never a good ending.

 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

That still leaves Lyanna without her baby, and stuck with Robert, who has all the signs of being the overly possessive, controlling type, even for their culture.  A lot of it is all about pride, and he's likely to remind her of being 'rescued' and how grateful she should be, especially since he married her, so it's all okay now.

What happens the first time Lyanna fights back, or he hits her like he did Cersei? 

(When did Benjen take the Black? The Queen's brother in the Kingsguard seems to be becoming tradition.)

She's in an impossible position, always was from the time her father decided to betroth her to Robert.  Whether those men were keeping her safe, or keeping her from running, there was never a good ending.

 

A few months after Ned returned to Winterfell after RR.