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Robb Tully of Riverrun?


KarlDanski

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12 minutes ago, KarlDanski said:

We know very little about Sarella other than that she may be Alleras,

i) it's a palindrome
ii) She's intelligent, educated, curious, open-minded, independent, and seeks self-improvement.
iii) There's a reasonable chance that the Nymeros Martell family gets... somewhat short on members.

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Sansa is inexperienced and doesn't have the popularity, skill, or any traits that would make people follow her as shown in the TV show where she's been married to a Lannister, and Bolton or in the books where she's married to a Lannister and so to be to a Arryn/Hardyng.

lol, what? Harrold and Edric are experienced? She's charming. She's intelligent. She's learning rapidly. Anyone she has/ will marry is likely to die.

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Tyrek has as much experience as Sarella and we know even littler about him than Sarella, all we know is that he disappeared and was to marry a newborn when that newborn comes of age.

He's also more likely to survive.

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On 13/5/2017 at 8:43 PM, KarlDanski said:

The reason for the Joffrey Lannister of Casterly Rock is because he is a Lannister in all but name, a cruel sadistic crazy, but a Lannister nonetheless. 

That is an interesting thought. Are you also suggesting that Myrcella and Tommen are not Lannisters, since both of them do not seem to share their older brother's cruelty? Besides they also belong in the younger generation.

In regards to Joffrey ruling Casterly Rock, it is a huge responsibility. His great grandfather was extremely weal, polite and kind and nearly ruined his House. Tywin's political demeanour was greatly inspired by his father's complete incompetence and in a certain extent he became the exact opposite of his father.

I don't recall the Lannisters cheering for Joffrey's cruelty, with the exception of Lancel, who wanted to earn his nephew's praise.

In fact Kevan was shocked at Joffrey's comment about intimidating Sansa.

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"And I want Robb Stark's head too. Write to Lord Frey and tell him. The king commands. I'm going to have it served to Sansa at my wedding feast."

"Sire," Ser Kevan said, in a shocked voice, "the lady is now your aunt by marriage."

"A jest." Cersei smiled. "Joff did not mean it."

Later, when Tywin and Jaime discussed about the future of their House, Tywin wants to prevent Tommen from becoming another Joffrey:

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 Lord Tywin rose as well. "A duty to House Lannister. You are the heir to Casterly Rock. That is where you should be. Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he'll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother.

Then of course there is the scene where Joffrey, as a Baratheon, mocks his Lannister grandfather for his inadequacy.

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Instead of scuttling safely back under his rock, Joff drew himself up defiantly and said, "You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him."
Oh, my, hasn't this gotten interesting? Tyrion thought.
 
Lord Tywin studied his grandchild in silence, gold flecks shining in his pale green eyes. "Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather," said Cersei.
He wrenched free of her. "Why should I? Everyone knows it's true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk."
 
"Thank you for that wisdom, Your Grace," Lord Tywin said, with a courtesy so cold it was like to freeze their ears off. "Ser Kevan, I can see the king is tired. Please see him safely back to his bedchamber. Pycelle, perhaps some gentle potion to help His Grace sleep restfully?"

Even though that Tywin is straightforward and tells Joffrey that he won the war for him, Joffrey refuses to respcect his Grandfather and acknowledge what he has done for his House. None of the Lannisters has ever tried to dispute Tywin, even though they did not agreed with his methods, they respected him, but not Joffrey. Besides Joffrey doesn't seem to have any bond with CR.

On 13/5/2017 at 5:47 PM, KarlDanski said:

I've had this idea in my head for a while. Robb is known for his honor, when he had sex with Jeyne Westerling, he dishonored her so he married her to save her honor at the cost of his own, and the deal with Walder Frey, honor before reason at it's center. I feel like Robb would make a better Lord of Riverrun than Lord of Winterfell. He has the right amount of military knowledge to help defend the Riverlands lack of natural borders, he has the Tully looks, he's respected by a lot of the Riverlands with the exceptions of Frey after the Jeyne incident. Anyway, I feel he would make a great Riverlord over Northern Lord, but that's just me, what do you guys think?

 

 

I don't think that the fact that he has the Tully look is sufficient for him to be Lord of Riverrun. For example, Baelor Breakspear looks nothing like a Targaryen and yet he was greatly respected and considered a great heir to the throne. I also don't think that Robb's notion of honour and the way he handled the Jeyne Westerling affair indicates that he is fit to rule the Riverlands. 

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"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

According to Tywin, Robb acted like a Stark in that situation.

I think that there are several reasons why the Riverland Lords followed Robb:

  • His mother is a Tully and the Tullys, especially Hoster, did not cause any major problems to their vassals.
  • The Riverlands were vulnerable to the Lannister attacks.
  • Their de facto leader was Edmure, who wanted nothing more than to protect his people and an alliance with his nephew was his best option.

 

If anything, in the events of GOT, Robb proved that he would be an excellent Lord of Winterfell. While his parents were away, knowing that there was a danger to his family (the attacks against Bran, the dubious alliance with the Lannisters), he assumed his duty and he successfully dealt his his father's bannermen when the time came: Bolton, Glover, Mormont, Cerwyn, Hornwood. All of them demanded something from Robb and Robb managed to convince them of the strength of his character and proved to them that he is a responsible adult, not a gullible child.

And let us not forget how Robb reacted when Greatjon came to test him.

When he demanded foe his forces to be placed before the Hornwoods, against Robb's decision, the Young Wolf merely pointed out that in that case his army would first defeat the Lannisters and then they would execute Greatjon for oathbreaking. Naturally Greatjon insulted Robb for being inexperienced and started a fight but all Robb did was to set Grey Wind against him. Robb not only managed to calm down his vassal but also showed him who is boss. 

 

It is fascinating to read how Robb won the hearts and minds of the Northmen, using intimidation and patience to earn their respect. This doesn't mean that he would fail as Lord of Riverrun, but it is a different land, different people. Throughout GOT, in Cat's chapters we read about the many differences between those two lands. Much later in DWD we are being told of an incident which took place when Robb was a child. Alys Karstark along with her father had visited the Starks, hoping that she would be betrothed to Robb. She danced with both Robb and Jon, but while Jon was shy, Robb was polite and knew exactly what to say and how to copliment a young lady. I assume that this was something that his mother taught him but courtesy adds an extra point to his ruling skills. It has been suggested in the forums that Ned's sense of honour came from Jon Arryn, who raised him. If this is the case, then the southron influence had a positive impact on Ned's skills. 

8 hours ago, KarlDanski said:

Edmure, Harrold, and Edrik I can get behind, but I disagree with all the others. Asha is acceptable, but why Sarella, Sansa, and Tyrek? We know very little about Sarella other than that she may be Alleras, Sansa is inexperienced and doesn't have the popularity, skill, or any traits that would make people follow her as shown in the TV show where she's been married to a Lannister, and Bolton or in the books where she's married to a Lannister and so to be to a Arryn/Hardyng. Tyrek has as much experience as Sarella and we know even littler about him than Sarella, all we know is that he disappeared and was to marry a newborn when that newborn comes of age.

 

I agree about Tyrek, we don't know many things about him. I think that generally readers are fascinated by him, because he is a Lannister, a possible heir and he might have escaped in order to avoid the fate that his uncle arranged for him.

In regards to Sarella, I agree with @Saer. The fact that she is a woman who has decided to excell in a field which is limited to men, shows how brave she is and determined. She also appeared to be more nice than the other pupils at the Citadel and she has proven to be smart. Also she seems to be the only Sand Snake who is trully competent and not obnoxious (but this is just my personal opinion:D).

About Sansa though, well, if someone was made to rule, this is Ned Stark's oldest daughter.

She gained expereince following the tragic events of GOT. She managed to survive and learned not to trust people.

When she and Cersei argued about the most efficient way to govern, Sansa reached to an important decision:

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The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy."

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.

Jon mentions the hospitality of the clans whenever Ned would visit them and from the reactions of several Northern Lords, it seems that some of them did love him.

Regarding Sansa's popularity, the only time the crowds appeared to be against her, was during the riots at KL but it had nothing to do with her being Sansa Stark, people were merely frustated with her due to her association to the Lannisters.

Yet during the seige of KL, it was Sansa who managed to stay calm even when Cercei threatened to kill her. And when at Maegor Lancel tried to warn Cersei but instead she pushed him away and left, it was Sansa who tried to calm down the ladies, reassuring them that everything was fine. And then she came to Lancel's aid.

Not to mention the clever way she manipulated Joffrey into sparing the life of Ser Dontos. 

Then, even after all the horrible things that the Lannisters had done to her, Sansa did praise Lancel, earning Kevan's gratitude and Tyrion's admiration, who deduced that Sansa woud make a great queen.

There are many occasions throughtout the books where Sansa has proved that she has the skills to rule. The big question is how is she going to use her knowledge and experience. 

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1 hour ago, Danelle said:

I don't think that the fact that he has the Tully look is sufficient for him to be Lord of Riverrun. For example, Baelor Breakspear looks nothing like a Targaryen and yet he was greatly respected and considered a great heir to the throne. I also don't think that Robb's notion of honour and the way he handled the Jeyne Westerling affair indicates that he is fit to rule the Riverlands. 

Robb would make for a good garrison commander in the same way the Blackfish commanded the gate forces at the Eyrie.  He is not ruler material.  Lord of Winterfell meant he would sit in judgment of criminals.  Methinks that's too high of a responsibility for Robb.  He's a fighting man and should stay that way.

 

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Just now, Green-Lipped Mussel said:

Robb would make for a good garrison commander in the same way the Blackfish commanded the gate forces at the Eyrie.  He is not ruler material.  Lord of Winterfell meant he would sit in judgment of criminals.  Methinks that's too high of a responsibility for Robb.  He's a fighting man and should stay that way.

 

What makes you think that?

He did convince the Northmen that he is someone who could lead them, there is nothing which suggests that he cannot sit in judgement of criminals. On the contrary the Karstark incident showed how he deals with men who disobey him. Earlier he had threatened to kill Greatjon for disobeying him but it was Karstark who did it and who lost his head in the end. And it was Robb that beheaded him.

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Long Lew waited beside the block, but Robb took the poleaxe from his hand and ordered him to step aside. "This is my work," he said. "He dies at my word. He must die by my hand."

Lord Rickard Karstark dipped his head stiffly. "For that much, I thank you. But for naught else." He had dressed for death in a long black wool surcoat emblazoned with the white sunburst of his House. "The blood of the First Men flows in my veins as much as yours, boy. You would do well to remember that. I was named for your grandfather. I raised my banners against King Aerys for your father, and against King Joffrey for you. At Oxcross and the Whispering Wood and in the Battle of the Camps, I rode beside you, and I stood with Lord Eddard on the Trident. We are kin, Stark and Karstark."

"This kinship did not stop you from betraying me," Robb said. "And it will not save you now. Kneel, my lord."

Blackfish is more like the type of fighting man, Robb isn't like him. This doesn't mean that he lacks fighting skills but rather that his biggest assets are his leading skills. 

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Ummmm no. Edric and Harrold are experienced as they've been raised as lords, and are highborn. Sarella and Sansa may be fan favorites, but their not experienced or knowledgable enough or have the respect of the soldiers, people or highborn to lead. Sansa is Littlefingers prodegy, she would make a good mistress of whispers, but not Lord. Sarella may be curious, but she will not rule and we know little about her. Tyrek isnt going to be Lord. All we know of him is that hes Tyggets son, and that he is to marry a newborn. If anyone becomes Lord of the Westerlands, its likely to be Staffords son, Devan Lannister.

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On 5/13/2017 at 2:32 PM, The Transporter said:

We should look at the actual results of his actions and not what goes on in the character's head.  He thinks he's fair but his actions say otherwise.  He should have let Karstark go because he let his mother go for doing something even more stupid and more wrong.

Robb couldn't let Karstark go after Karstark mocked Robb after he got caught killing the 2 Lannister boys.  Robb's leadership and authority would have been compromised.  Had he just shut up, then Robb could have at least imprisoned him, but Karstark wanted to die so his army would turn on Robb.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Robb would've made a excellent King in the North if he had learned his place and bent the knee to Stannis. Like the above poster pointed out, Karstark was provoking him. Maybe his bannerman would've  been not sooooooo restless if they had a exit plan??? 

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