Lysa Tully: When Nightsoil Hit the Fan?

[Traverys]

Alternative Title: Lysa Arryn & Hoster Tully's Misguided Benevolence.

My brief time here as an active member has pretty much led me to this conclusion: you guys enjoy a good debate. As I've been rereading the series slowly and attentively, I've also been keeping up with chapter-by-chapter analyses to broaden my horizons.

Race for the Iron Throne had something really interesting to say that I had never thought about. To set the context of the quote, it revolves around the discussion of Catelyn hearing her father mumble about "Tansy," readers eventually learning that Hoster forced Lysa to take an abortive concoction, the damaging repercussions it placed on Lysa, and how those repercussions started a chain of events (their opinion).

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Cersei is usually held up as the gold standard for how the imperatives of feudal politics and dynastic alliances are worked out through women’s bodies, but I would argue that Lysa’s case is worse. It’s worse in no small part because Hoster Tully didn’t act out of maliciousness, but rather out of the kindest of motives. Rather than see his daughter disgraced and rendered unmarriagable, he pulled a high-handed power play on the power structure of the rebellion and got his daughter married to a great lord and the Hand of the King.

But even with these seemingly benevolent reasons, the sheer damage done is staggering – Lysa’s bodily integrity was torn from her with life-long devastating impact, and as a result, Jon Arryn was murdered, Ned Stark died, the Riverlands burned, and Riverrun given over to the house he scorned most in life. And the people responsible for the downfall of his house is the daughter who slept with the wrong man and the man he considered unfit for his daughter.

So the question boils down to how much of the current shitstorm (nightsoil storm?) can we trace back to the choice Lord Tully made regarding his daughter? I think all mature readers understand that events in the series must be considered as an intersection of choices and actions, but it can be illuminating to place specific lanes under scrutiny.

Thoughts? Opinions? Go.

Bonus points if you provide quotes.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I'm in no way or form minimizing the effects that the forced abortion could've had in Lysa, but I think in time she might've healed from it all and put it behind her had Hoster not forced her into a loveless marriage with such an older man. 

If she'd been in a healthier, loving relationship then maybe she would've gotten over Littlefinger and his poisonous influence. 

Now that I think about it, a Lysa-Jaime marriage could've done so much good for both of them: Jaime would've stopped his toxic relationship with Cersei and Lysa would've married someone with a full set of teeth. 

 

[zandru]

38 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

a Lysa-Jaime marriage could've done so much good for both of them: Jaime would've stopped his toxic relationship with Cersei and Lysa would've married someone with a full set of teeth. 

I got the impression from Jaime's POV that Jaime joined the Kingsguard BECAUSE Cersei told him of the plans to wed him to Crazy Lysa Tully. Had the marriage been forced, it would have been a rocky one I think, not the loving, healing relationship that, face it, everybody needs.

[Traverys]

1 hour ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I'm in no way or form minimizing the effects that the forced abortion could've had in Lysa, but I think in time she might've healed from it all and put it behind her had Hoster not forced her into a loveless marriage with such an older man. 

If she'd been in a healthier, loving relationship then maybe she would've gotten over Littlefinger and his poisonous influence. 

Now that I think about it, a Lysa-Jaime marriage could've done so much good for both of them: Jaime would've stopped his toxic relationship with Cersei and Lysa would've married someone with a full set of teeth. 

 

Came across this quote in Catelyn's first chapter of ASoS.

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Small wonder her sister’s marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth.

Martin, George R.R.. A Storm of Swords: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Three (p. 39). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

I wonder what would provide more warmth? (1) being married to an old man who tolerates you for the sake of an alliance and hope for an heir, or (2) married to someone who will always love another more (i.e., Petyr or Jaime).

I guess I'll pose more questions to stimulate conversation (some of which we will never clearly have an answer for): We all know Lysa herself is responsible for important misinformation and killing Jon Arryn, but...

1. Do we place the burden squarely on her shoulders or make her father share in the blame?
   • As the writer of The Race for the Iron Throne put it, regarding his actions to "save" Lysa: "If this is the best that a benevolent patriarch can accomplish, what hope is there for the system as a whole?"
   • Do you personally believe that his actions were benevolent?
2. Would things have been different if her father had let her have Petyr's bastard baby?
   • Was she still pregnant with his baby when she was betrothed to Jon Arryn?
   • Did Tansy Tea screw up her reproductive system? Was Jon Arryn the infertile one? Did she induce her own miscarriages?
3. Because of her love for Baelish, was it inevitable that she would be a tool for him to use? Would a Lannister marriage have been more or less damaging for him to ingratiate himself into like he did with Arryn?

[elder brother jonothor dar]

It's sounds very much like the butter fly effect, yes one thing lead a to another but you could easily take any interaction and come to the same conclusion Tyrion being a dwarf, Ned being born 2nd etc.

[SeaWitch]

I'm not a fan of the Tullys.  They are high-handed, arrogant and self-absorbed. (Which is generally true of the high-born.). So, yes, much of the disaster devolves back on them.

I'll also take issue with LF's 'poisonous influence', since he wasn't the one who crawled into bed with a drunk Lysa.  (And later,a badly injured and possibly drugged individual.) believe she thought she could force a marriage, but both she and Petyr fundamentally misunderstood his standing in the household.  He was raised alongside the children, but I think Hoster regarded him as somewhere between a servant and a pet.

Forced abortion and a much older man would certainly cause the reproductive issues, which contributed to her instability.  Lysa is clearly mentally unwell.  And part of that is obsession with Petyr.  The best thing would have been for Jon Arryn to have ignored his wife's entreaties to find and employ the man.  I'm going with a mutually damaging influence, between two very damaged people.  Lysa was never going to be happy in her life.

Though neither was Petyr.  He lost home, health, family, the girl he loved, in a maelstrom of confusion.  Add in a couple of semi-consensual sexual experiences, and there's more than physical scarring.  His control issues and screwed-up approach to relationships make perfect sense.

Even if Hoster had allowed the marriage, it wouldn't have been the happy ending Lysa wanted.  The proof of her fertility as bargaining chip to marry her to Arryn was sick, though.  "Yes, she's done it once, but we've sorted that out, so carry on."  

i did a thesis on women and the evolution of marriage in Europe.  The idea of bodily autonomy as belonging to the woman herself is new, and sadly still not universal. Hoster's behaviour was typical of his society, but also the same blind high-handedness that causes half the disasters in the books.

 

[Protagoras]

Hoster clearly follows the standards of Westeros in this - minimize the scandal, remove the baby and marry her as well as possible. The problem is Lysa. That she would have a little dalliance is not really a problem. As I have argued in the past, virginity hold little value in a society where you marry in order to advance, to create alliances and to get favors from other lords. Lysa would have still been the daugther of the Lord paramount of the Riverlands and Hoster do indeed get her a good marriage despite the "Littlefinger incident". Certainly he feel bad about it, as he should since he placed his and the house need before Lysas, but there was in practice no other choice he could make. Because, he believed wrongly that this would benefit Lysa - and in most cases he would have been correct. 

Lysa is simply too emotional, weakwilled and naive. She wanted Littlefinger, to keep the child and "true love - happily ever after" in a society where you marry for status and prestige. She is Ariel in The little mermaid, Bella Swan in Twilight etc, the girl with romantic notions who "just know" what is best for her and what she wants, at an age everyone with experience more or less would scream "Don´t make decisions you might regret because then it will be too late". Just imagine today - a woman marrying and getting pregnant with her sweetheart at a young age - young love. Certainly, it can work out, but if it doesn´t you will have a shitload of problem and maybe a ruined life. You have gambled and lost. Or maybe an older version of Lysa, a Lysa who today would cry out over her asshole to boyfriend which she can´t bring herself to dump, that still "loves her" and refuses to listen to her friends advice to dump him, digging herself more and more in a hole. 

So what Lysa should have done is accepting the abortion, break up with Littlefinger and move on - maybe find some other bloke she could have fun with and take moon tea always. The way Arianne did with Arys and the way Asha would do if Qarl would become a problem. But instead, she really want that child to all cost, start to identify herself as a mother, as a lifegiver. Then her new marriage is not as emotional and as childgiving as she would hope for, making her idealize Littlefinger and his "true love", becoming the Harley Quinn of Westeros. She has never feeled loved since then. The choices Hoster did had the opposite effect and one has to wonder if he didn´t knew his daughter better, that he should have seen this coming. Maybe he did at his deathbed. It is a tragedy everyone suffered for at the end. 

So, in short, this is only a disaster with the benefit of hindsight. There is no reason to think that this would doom the house. But it did. Lysa pays the price of the Westerosi society not marrying for love. If Robb was the warning on doing so, Lysa is the warning for NOT doing so. But then again, I have met "Lysas" and they tend to place themselves in situations they later will cry over. Because they are not very analytical people, act on feelings and doesn´t plan for disasters. Life is not a song. 

[Prof. Cecily]

1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

I have met "Lysas" and they tend to place themselves in situations they later will cry over. Because they are not very analytical people, act on feelings and doesn´t plan for disasters. Life is not a song.

So very true, about the "Lysas" in our lives.

And very brave of GRRM to portray a female sex abuser/predator in such complex terms in ASOIAF.

 

What most calls my attention in this sad story is that we are told it through the eyes of others, never by those directly involved. Neither Lady Lysa, nor Lord Hoster nor Lord Baelish tells us what occured.

We learn of  it only in hints and glimpses from Catelyn.

AGOT, Catelyn IX

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How young they all had been—she no older than Sansa, Lysa younger than Arya, and Petyr younger still, yet eager. The girls had traded him between them, serious and giggling by turns. It came back to her so vividly she could almost feel his sweaty fingers on her shoulders and taste the mint on his breath. There was always mint growing in the godswood, and Petyr had liked to chew it. He had been such a bold little boy, always in trouble. "He tried to put his tongue in my mouth," Catelyn had confessed to her sister afterward, when they were alone. "He did with me too," Lysa had whispered, shy and breathless. "I liked it."

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn I

I've spoilered this, to be certain no reader who has yet to read ASOS has their enjoyment of the book marred by my post.

Spoiler

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"It was best," her father whispered. "Jon's a good man, good . . . strong, kind . . . take care of you . . . he will . . . and well born, listen to me, you must, I'm your father . . . your father . . . you'll wed when Cat does, yes you will . . ."

He thinks I'm Lysa, Catelyn realized. Gods be good, he talks as if we were not married yet.

Her father's hands clutched at hers, fluttering like two frightened white birds. "That stripling . . . wretched boy . . . not speak that name to me, your duty . . . your mother, she would . . ." Lord Hoster cried as a spasm of pain washed over him. "Oh, gods forgive me, forgive me, forgive me. My medicine . . ."

 

 

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She wondered who Lysa's "wretched stripling" had been. Some young squire or hedge knight, like as not . . . though by the vehemence with which Lord Hoster had opposed him, he might have been a tradesman's son or baseborn apprentice, even a singer. Lysa had always been too fond of singers. I must not blame her. Jon Arryn was twenty years older than our father, however noble.

 

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If she had lost a child before, that might explain Father's words, and much else besides . . . Lysa's match with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged, and Jon was an old man even then, older than their father. An old man without an heir. His first two wives had left him childless, his brother's son had been murdered with Brandon Stark in King's Landing, his gallant cousin had died in the Battle of the Bells. He needed a young wife if House Arryn was to continue . . . a young wife known to be fertile.

Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. "Father," she said, "Father, I know what you did." She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. "You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

Small wonder her sister's marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth.

 

Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. "Father," she said, "Father, I know what you did." She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. "You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

Small wonder her sister's marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth

 

 

And yet, as we see from the text itself, Cat never seems to suspect the identity of that  "wretched stripling". Did she imagine that those kissing games Lysa confessed to have liked would remain in games?

Lysa is not the only Tully sister to be delusional about Baelish, so it would seem.

Anyway.

This is not the only seduction via nursing in ASOICAF.

Robb falls victim to a similar ploy.

Spoilered, as I mention events from ASOS

Spoiler

"I took her castle and she took my heart." Robb smiled. "The Crag was weakly garrisoned, so we took it by storm one night. Black Walder and the Smalljon led scaling parties over the walls, while I broke the main gate with a ram. I took an arrow in the arm just before Ser Rolph yielded us the castle. It seemed nothing at first, but it festered. Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of . . . of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon." He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers' names. "That night, she . . . she comforted me, Mother."

Catelyn did not need to be told what sort of comfort Jeyne Westerling had offered her son. "And you wed her the next day."

He looked her in the eyes, proud and miserable all at once. "It was the only honorable thing to do. She's gentle and sweet, Mother, she will make me a good wife."

 

Come to think of it, Lysa's seduction of Petyr has its source in the Arthurian cycle

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Lancelot became one of the most famous knights of the Round Table, and Elaine of Corbenic, daughter of the Fisher King, suddenly falls in love with him. She tricks him into believing that she is Queen Guinevere and he sleeps with her, and the ensuing pregnancy results in the birth of Galahad.[1][16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancelot

We have similar sort of story in the Old Testament story of Tamar.

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6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar. 

7 And Er,Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of theLORD; and the LORD slew him. 

8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. 

9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. 

10 And the thing which he did displeased* the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

11 Then said Judah to Tamar his daughter in law, Remain a widow at thy father's house, till Shelah my son be grown: for he said, Lest peradventure he diealso, as his brethren did. And Tamar went and dwelt in her father's house. 

12 And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah's wife died; and Judah was comforted, and went up unto his sheepshearers* to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite. 

13 And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep. 

14 And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. 

15When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face. 

16 And heturned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? 

17 And he said, I will send thee a kid from theflock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it? 

18 And he said, What pledge shall Igive thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thybracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him. 

19 And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood. 

20 And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive his pledge from the woman's hand: but he found her not.

21 Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the wayside? And they said, There was no harlot in this place. 

22 And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, that there was no harlot in this place. 

23 And Judah said, Let her take it to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her.

24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. 

25 When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff. 

26 And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.

 

From Genesis 38,  KJV

Similar because (spoilered for aluding to something from ASOS, Sansa VI)

Spoiler

we learn later that Lysa believed her pregnancy would force her father's hand into 'doing the right thing' and allowing her to be with a boy she believed would become great

 

And, of course, that edifying story of Abraham, his sister/wife Sarah and Abimelech in Genesis 20:

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And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar. 2And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah. 3But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. 4But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? 5Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. 6And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. 7Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

8Therefore Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears: and the men were sore afraid. 9Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done. 10And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing? 11And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. 12And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. 13And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother. 14And Abimelech took sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and womenservants, and gave them unto Abraham, and restored him Sarah his wife. 15And Abimelech said, Behold, my land is before thee: dwell where it pleaseth thee. 16And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved. 17So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children. 18For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife.

 

Doesn't that story remind distanty you of the relations between Daenerys and her brother Viserys III?

Whenever you think GRRM overdoes incest, violence and treachery, take some time to read the OT.

Back in Planeteros,

Marriage is a social contract between families, a means of forging alliances  between heads of families, with children given as virtual hostages. In this context, sexual or emotional satisfaction doesn't even enter the equation. 

The legitimacy of the ruler's succession must never be in question.

I think this is Cersei's true 'crime'- she didn't give her lord a plausible heir.

And Lysa's crime is to be, well, batshit crazy. And believing in a 'happily ever after' ending to real life situations.

Come to think of it, you could say those two crimes are still ones for which women, and those around them, pay dearly.

 

[zandru]

It's enough to make a person question what this "love" emotion really is.

Seems like "love" is likely to short circuit the logical functions of the brain. It causes people to often perform acts of breathtaking selfishness. It can lead to literal killing, even war. Doesn't exactly seem a survival trait.

But then again, we're looking at a work of fiction, whose purpose includes detailing and exploring the consequences of people doing stupid things, bringing disaster upon themselves and others, and having unexpected calamity befall them. It's as much a reflection of "real life" in this respect as is the evening news, where "If it bleeds, it leads."

[Lion of the West]

14 hours ago, Traverys said:

Alternative Title: Lysa Arryn & Hoster Tully's Misguided Benevolence.

My brief time here as an active member has pretty much led me to this conclusion: you guys enjoy a good debate. As I've been rereading the series slowly and attentively, I've also been keeping up with chapter-by-chapter analyses to broaden my horizons.

Race for the Iron Throne had something really interesting to say that I had never thought about. To set the context of the quote, it revolves around the discussion of Catelyn hearing her father mumble about "Tansy," readers eventually learning that Hoster forced Lysa to take an abortive concoction, the damaging repercussions it placed on Lysa, and how those repercussions started a chain of events (their opinion).

So the question boils down to how much of the current shitstorm (nightsoil storm?) can we trace back to the choice Lord Tully made regarding his daughter? I think all mature readers understand that events in the series must be considered as an intersection of choices and actions, but it can be illuminating to place specific lanes under scrutiny.

Thoughts? Opinions? Go.

Bonus points if you provide quotes.

I'd say that very little can be forced down on the part of Lord Tully's choice of husbands for his daughters. It seems to me that things go so much into each other that while the Tully sisters' marriages are not unimportant I doubt that either of them would have changed Littlefinger's basic personality or Varys' restoration scheming. Nor Robert's unfitness to rule or how Joffrey turning out and so on. It might, just might, have made Littlefinger somewhat less driven but I'm not convinced that he would have been an angel if he got Catelyn.

In regards to Lysa her life is indeed a tragic one in which she is treated horribly by her own father and then manipulated by Littefinger in the disguise of love. She obviously isn't a saint, few people in Westeros are, but don't think that she deserved what she got. I hope she got some kind of peace in death after the life she went through. 

[SeaWitch]

Did Petyr ever know about the pregnancy at the time?  Probably not, if he was packed off within a fortnight.  In a litter, too weak and injured to ride...that paints an ugly picture of his ability to consent the second time, too.  I'm wondering when he found out that the first time wasn't Cat.  Lysa crawling in on top of him and telling him he essentially got himself nearly killed for nothing? "When you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman..." 

Maybe he would have been prepared to do the decent thing, but he was essentially tossed out like trash.  The Tullys treated him like a toy, rather than a person.

(I have a lot of feelings about a skinny, shell-shocked teenager, sitting alone in a damp, dark tower house with his world in ruins.)

Yeah, Lysa held onto that baby as leverage, and didn't realise that it wouldn't work that way.  At the point Petyr got thrown out on his ear, the rebellion hadn't happened - so Jon Arryn wasn't in the frame. (Jaime Lannister was - was Tyrion offered and refused? I can't recall.) Until Brandon Stark had his moment of idiocy (ride up to the door of a paranoid pyromaniac and threaten him, good call, wolfboy) it might have seemed possible to her. He's a Lord's heir, he's been brought up and educated with them, why not? It was the stuff of songs, after all.  The pair of them were romantics. Petyr dared to think he had a chance with Cat. There's every possibility he went into that duel believing he had taken her maidenhead and was thus in the right.  Poor bastard.

edit: also, Lysa is not Petyr's innocent dupe. She knew what she was doing when she mixed that drink, and wrote that letter.  Re-reading her meeting with Cat, I think she spoke the truth.  The letter was meant to *stop* the Starks going to KL and getting into the schemes there.  Only Cat and Luwin fucked that up by pushing Ned.

[Lion of the West]

Just for a correction I don't think Lysa was an innocent dupe but I doubt that she would have done half of the bad things she did if Littlefinger had not been playing her along. She's still responsible for her own actions, but she isn't reponsible for Littlefinger's. They were both part of it. But in no way does this take away from the fact that she was manipulated by a man she thought loved or that she had a tragic life.

[SeaWitch]

1 minute ago, LionoftheWest said:

Just for a correction I don't think Lysa was an innocent dupe but I doubt that she would have done half of the bad things she did if Littlefinger had not been playing her along. She's still responsible for her own actions, but she isn't reponsible for Littlefinger's. They were both part of it. But in no way does this take away from the fact that she was manipulated by a man she thought loved or that she had a tragic life.

Oh, they are a co-dependent trainwreck, no doubt.  Though, you don't think she'd have poisoned JA anyway? Given half the chance, I suspect she'd have dosed Daddy dearest, too.      I wonder how much of her obsession was because Petyr wanted Cat instead, sibling rivalry gone toxic.  Some of her tragedy is of her own making.

 

(I'm going to sit over here and wave my little mockingbird flag. I admit my bias.)

[Lion of the West]

11 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

Oh, they are a co-dependent trainwreck, no doubt.  Though, you don't think she'd have poisoned JA anyway? Given half the chance, I suspect she'd have dosed Daddy dearest, too.      I wonder how much of her obsession was because Petyr wanted Cat instead, sibling rivalry gone toxic.  Some of her tragedy is of her own making.

 

(I'm going to sit over here and wave my little mockingbird flag. I admit my bias.)

No, I don't think she would have poisoned Jon Arryn on her own even if its of course entirely possible that she could have done so. I never get the impression that Lysa or Catelyn had any particular hate between each other. Its not like Lysa tries to have Catelyn killed or throws her out of the Eyrie as I would expect from an unstable person like Lysa.

But regardless of who made the tragedy, the tragedy is there. A situation don't become less because of how it was created.

[SeaWitch]

24 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

No, I don't think she would have poisoned Jon Arryn on her own even if its of course entirely possible that she could have done so. I never get the impression that Lysa or Catelyn had any particular hate between each other. Its not like Lysa tries to have Catelyn killed or throws her out of the Eyrie as I would expect from an unstable person like Lysa.

But regardless of who made the tragedy, the tragedy is there. A situation don't become less because of how it was created.

If she'd caught Petyr kissing Cat, that might have changed.  

Most of ASoIaF is a tragedy of one sort or another. I mean "rocks fall, everybody dies" is very possible.

to go back to OP question, yes, a lot of it goes back to Hoster Tully. But nobody was going to end up happy.

[Lion of the West]

36 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

If she'd caught Petyr kissing Cat, that might have changed.  

Most of ASoIaF is a tragedy of one sort or another. I mean "rocks fall, everybody dies" is very possible.

to go back to OP question, yes, a lot of it goes back to Hoster Tully. But nobody was going to end up happy.

That might indeed have changed things but such a thing never happend and thus had no impact on their relationship.

I agree with the tragedy part, as much of life is indeed tragedy.

So much is in regards to that neither Catelyn nor Lysa would end up with a Prince Charming. But there are always degrees in hell and so a different match might not have been as hard on Lysa and thus not pushed her as far as she was pushed. But this of course speculation.

[Seams]

17 hours ago, Traverys said:

So the question boils down to how much of the current shit storm (nightsoil storm?) can we trace back to the choice Lord Tully made regarding his daughter?

Bonus points if you provide quotes.

 

14 hours ago, Traverys said:

We all know Lysa herself is responsible for important misinformation and killing Jon Arryn, but...

1. Do we place the burden squarely on her shoulders or make her father share in the blame?
   • As the writer of The Race for the Iron Throne put it, regarding his actions to "save" Lysa: "If this is the best that a benevolent patriarch can accomplish, what hope is there for the system as a whole?"
   • Do you personally believe that his actions were benevolent?

Some of the answers to these questions may be found in ACoK, Catelyn VI, in which Catelyn reflects on her own dutiful behavior with regard to her father's decisions and his arrangements for her marriage. One of the points of the chapter seems to be that marriage and childbirth are for women similar to what alliances and battle are for men. And the corollary is that marriage, childbirth, alliances and battle can be perilous, frustrating and even deadly.

It was the Tully alliance with the Starks (through the betrothal of Catelyn to the Stark heirs) that brought the Riverlands into Robert's Rebellion, I think, and into the current conflict with the Lannisters. So one might put the blame and/or credit on Hoster Tully for the Riverlands' portion of that "shit storm" without regard to Lysa's abortion and loveless marriage. In fact, it seems as if the Arryn alliance was an afterthought to the Tully-Stark alliance.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Lysa sleeping with Littlefinger takes place immediately after his duel with Brandon for Catelyn's honor, doesn't it? So the pregnancy would have dated from that night, at the earliest. But Lysa married Jon Arryn on the same day Catelyn married Ned Stark, so the abortion and reputation-saving marriage would have all happened pretty quickly after the duel, and seems more like a lucky combination of circumstances for Hoster than a carefully-chosen plan: Jon Arryn wanted a guaranteed-fertile wife, and Hoster wanted a high-born match for his daughter who would overlook the fact that she wasn't a maiden.

The text seems to reflect SeaWitch's findings regarding the status of women in the real middle ages: young women were pawns. Catelyn articulates her own situation:

I have always done my duty, she thought. Perhaps that was why her lord father had always cherished he best of all his children. Her two older brothers had both died in infancy so she had been son as well as daughter to Lord Hoster until Edmure was born. Then her mother had died and her father had told her that she must be the lady of Riverrun now, and she had done that too. And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match.

I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father send him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

(ACoK, Catelyn VI)

There is still a little mystery surrounding Littlefinger's presence at Riverrun in the first place, in my opinion. He was from a very poor and the minorest of minor noble houses. We see minor nouveau riche nobles who get to rub elbows with the highborn because of their money, but the visit to Baelish's house on the Fingers seems to prove that he did not come from wealth. Wards were taken in as hostages or as a way of creating an alliance with another powerful house. Young Petyr doesn't seem to fit either category. So there may be some hidden secret connection between Hoster Tully and Petyr Baelish or his family that the reader does not yet know, and that might explain both 1) Why Hoster took Petyr as a ward; and 2) Why Hoster sent Petyr away and cut off contact after Petyr's duel with Brandon and/or Lysa's pregnancy. I know we're all a bit weary of secret identity theories, but Petyr Baelish seems like a guy who has some secrets in his past, and one of them might have given him or his family some leverage over Hoster Tully.

It might also be fair to note that a Lysa-Baelish match based on Lysa's pregnancy might not have been a happy one. Petyr or his family would have had to agree to it, for one thing. The Baelish family might have been happy to marry "up" the social ladder, but I think it's pretty clearly shown that Petyr did not love Lysa. So Lysa might have thought she was getting what she wanted, only to discover that she had taken a fall (so to speak) in the social hierarchy of Westeros and bound herself to a bitter man who felt only contempt for her. Maybe Hoster saw enough of Petyr's character to know that he would not treat Lysa well, aside from the unsuitability of his low-born status.

Based on what we know now, I don't blame Hoster Tully for doing more or less than any other father does in arranging marriages for his children. I certainly don't think he could have anticipated that Lysa would become neurotic or psychotic and kill Jon Arryn. I agree that the system as a whole - marriage as well as alliances in warfare - was flawed. But I'm not sure that modern humans in the real world have greatly improved the situation except, as SeaWitch points out, to recognize that women should have bodily autonomy and the ability to make their own choices.

It may turn out to be a red herring (red trout?), but it will be interesting to see the adventures of Hoster the Hostage, the Blackwood son who is negotiated as a hostage by Jaime Lannister. I wonder whether he is a symbolic "rebirth" (for literary purposes) of Hoster Tully, and will help to reveal secrets about Hoster Tully's life and thoughts.

[SeaWitch]

oh, absolutely, a younger, kinder husband would have headed off so much grief.  But - a younger, kinder husband with a big army was not in the offing.

I don't think we should underestimate the stillbirths/miscarriages, either - she might have been much more stable with more kids.  She's a tragic figure, but I can't like her, there's too much creepiness.

 

 

[Lion of the West]

I agree that a younger and kinder husband was not around. And that she might have been more stabile and happier with more kids of her own. But even so I try to keep my heart open for the unfortunates of the world even if I can't give them practical aid.

[SeaWitch]

@SeamsRe the fostering - oh, yes.  Baelish Snr ingratiated himself with Hoster during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Tully, not Arryn, his ultimate liege lord.  He must have done something spectacular. Life-saving? Then, a decade later, a tiny little eight year old turns up on the doorstep.

Petyr thought he was part of the family, and was horribly disabused of this notion.  Hoster thought he was doing a massive favour for this nobody, gracious condescension, and was enraged by presumption. 

Timeline, as far as I can work out, is Brandon's visit. Petyr gets drunk, Lysa has semi-consensual sex, which he thinks is Cat. Betrothal announced, The duel happens. The next time, he knows it is Lysa, but he's also very badly injured. Less than a fortnight later, he's banished.

At this time, Rhaegar and Lyanna happen. Brandon pulls an idiot move, and gets himself and his father killed. Aerys goes utterly bugfuck, and wants Arryn to cough up Ned and Robert. Now, everybody needs armies in the same direction.  This is when Hoster proffers his daughter.  

At what point Lysa stopped merely crying to have Petyr brought back, and announced her surprise reason why, I'm not sure.  Everything moves very rapidly.