elder brother jonothor dar Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 How important is being a virgin? Margaery claims to be a maid although she is a widow. This a strange one, ideally a girl needs to be a maid for a good marriage but not the be all and end all. Rhonne Webber is a widow so he virginity is not an issue, same for for Ryswell although much older. Dany is queen so benefits out weigh any baggage she has Lysa is soiled but is this common knowledge? and again the benefits out weigh the issue. Drogo would be upset and probably sack the city if Dany was not a virgin but he is the exception not the rule. Is it more to do with reputation and honour; where a man can live with the stain if the price is right, after all many a high born girl has lost her maiden head to a horse. Could Margaery have saved herself a lot of hassel if she did not set herself up as being so virtuous, nobody expects a woman to be a maid once the bedding ceremony has taken place, her worth would still be the same to the Lannisters maid or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 If Margaery had not been a maiden the legitimacy of her first child to Joffrey conceived so quickly after her marriage to Renly could have easily been called into question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 9 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said: If Margaery had not been a maiden the legitimacy of her first child to Joffrey This is it exactly. Virginity was important in order for the husband to feel assured that the first child was the result of HIS "seed", not some other man's bastard. Margaery had a weird situation in that her first husband was irrevocably gay and would not bed her; her second husband was assassinated prior to the bedding. But how well known (or believed) was the first? And the worst Marg's troubles came from the charges that Cersei fabricated, then tortured a few guys into recounting (anyone will say anything to get the torture to end - this has been proved again and again throughout history). Moreover, apparently by the time she was done, Cersei believed the lies she'd made up about Margaery herself - a really pathological kind of self-delusion that's as scary as her Tyrion-hiding-in-the-walls obsession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 11 minutes ago, zandru said: This is it exactly. Virginity was important in order for the husband to feel assured that the first child was the result of HIS "seed", not some other man's bastard. Margaery had a weird situation in that her first husband was irrevocably gay and would not bed her; her second husband was assassinated prior to the bedding. But how well known (or believed) was the first? And the worst Marg's troubles came from the charges that Cersei fabricated, then tortured a few guys into recounting (anyone will say anything to get the torture to end - this has been proved again and again throughout history). Moreover, apparently by the time she was done, Cersei believed the lies she'd made up about Margaery herself - a really pathological kind of self-delusion that's as scary as her Tyrion-hiding-in-the-walls obsession. It would be sort of genius if Varys started planting dwarfs in the walls throughout the Red Keep. It would help speed up the process of driving Cersei insane and be funny at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 54 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: It would be sort of genius if Varys started planting dwarfs in the walls throughout the Red Keep. It would help speed up the process of driving Cersei insane and be funny at the same time. oh that would be hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 I think it had more to do with the idea that the girl was pure. Yes it is extremly ironic given how most men slept around but women that lived around the time this show is supposed to represent were essentially considered arm candy and baby makers. As for margery the only problem she really had was that cersei was gunning for her and had so much fake stuff made up or enhanced alot of it. Noone really cared that she wasn't a virgin but cersei made it seem like she slept with everybody and the women around her did too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elder brother jonothor dar Posted May 15, 2017 Author Share Posted May 15, 2017 3 hours ago, zandru said: This is it exactly. Virginity was important in order for the husband to feel assured that the first child was the result of HIS "seed", not some other man's bastard. Margaery had a weird situation in that her first husband was irrevocably gay and would not bed her; her second husband was assassinated prior to the bedding. But how well known (or believed) was the first? They did not examine her before the marriage her value was the power of Highgarden, any child born soon after Renlys death would raise questions, it is why there was a lavish wedding that "needed" time to plan. Where is it stated that he would not father children? Sure he was gay but so are many fathers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaWitch Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 It is a nasty double standard. The woman has to be 'pure', to ensure that any heirs born are true. Men can be virile as they like. Marriage is a contract between entire families, not individuals, so once power and property get involved, there's a great deal resting on concepts of 'honour'. Cersei commits a double crime, foisting bastards on the King would be treason without the incest element. Lysa' case was awful, but interesting. She was proven fertile, which was a key factor for Jon Arryn, but the proof of that fertility had to be disposed of, to make sure of Arryn heirs. Widows, particularly past the age of child-bearing, had utility in the market because if property or wealth they might possess. But living long past the marriage might be uncertain. Once the man had the goods, well... and then he could remarry younger, prettier and poorer wouldn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: It would be sort of genius if Varys started planting dwarfs in the walls throughout the Red Keep. It would help speed up the process of driving Cersei insane and be funny at the same time. Only if Cersei actually discovered the dwarves. And in fact, Varys had - his "little birds" were children (dwarf-sized), so they could move through the small passages in the walls. Varys would have been a fool to reveal these secret, infinitely useful passageways, even for the short term jollies of getting to Cersei. Besides, Cersei was already driving herself crazy - and it was less fun'n'games than it was scary. Aerys-level scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 9 hours ago, Trigger Warning said: If Margaery had not been a maiden the legitimacy of her first child to Joffrey conceived so quickly after her marriage to Renly could have easily been called into question. Also, Margaery was supposed to be a suitable bride to the king, so there had to be everything 'highest quality' about her (marrying an usurper before was enough of a scar on her CV already). If she married just another lord, being just a Tyrell would suffice. As for Lysa, a) she was the younger daugher, on the dead end of inheritance b ) Hoster and Jon Arryn were honor-bound pricks. (funnily enough, Cat implies than Jon might have been displeased on the outside, but wanted a woman with proven fertility, so...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 There is an awesome theory that posits Arya and Sansa will be sacrificed to the Old Gods and that is the reason for preserving their virginity in the story. It could be an awesome turn of events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 13 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said: How important is being a virgin? Very. 13 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said: Margaery claims to be a maid although she is a widow. This a strange one, ideally a girl needs to be a maid for a good marriage but not the be all and end all. Virginity is literally the only way to guarantee a bloodline. Continuing the bloodline is the primary reason for marriage 13 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said: Rhonne Webber is a widow so he virginity is not an issue, same for for Ryswell although much older. Her marriage is about the secondary purpose. Alliances and property 13 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said: Dany is queen so benefits out weigh any baggage she has Yep. Any child she has will be royal. 13 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said: Lysa is soiled but is this common knowledge? and again the benefits out weigh the issue. Sort of. She was young, known to be fertile and Jon Arryn had just lost his heir in the rebellion. He needed a fertile wife for an heir, the Tulys needed and alliance. 13 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said: Drogo would be upset and probably sack the city if Dany was not a virgin but he is the exception not the rule. Probably not. they couldn't speak the same language or communicate well. Plus, Drogo was a horndog. I doubt he would have cared 13 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said: Is it more to do with reputation and honour; where a man can live with the stain if the price is right, after all many a high born girl has lost her maiden head to a horse. it has to do with bloodlines. the end result was a highly sexist patriarchal society that was built on protecting said bloodlines 13 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said: Could Margaery have saved herself a lot of hassel if she did not set herself up as being so virtuous, nobody expects a woman to be a maid once the bedding ceremony has taken place, her worth would still be the same to the Lannisters maid or not Again, her maidenhood was important ot the king and the royal line, the irony being that the king was a bastard born out of incest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said: Virginity is literally the only way to guarantee a bloodline. Actually, no. The wife still can go sideway after getting married, even if she was a virgin prior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 5 minutes ago, Tianzi said: Actually, no. The wife still can go sideway after getting married, even if she was a virgin prior. like cersei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elder brother jonothor dar Posted May 16, 2017 Author Share Posted May 16, 2017 16 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said: Her marriage is about the secondary purpose. Alliances and property I was thinking of the Lannister marriage but this might be an other case of Lysa where proven fertility was needed particularly if the Dunk daughter theory is correct. 15 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said: like cersei not a virgin but even if she was she would probably still play away from home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 It's one of those things that people say is important, but is given low priority in practice. Gatehouse Ami is hot property right now, after all, despite her reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Bolt Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Why Willam Dustin married Barbrey Ryswell? After all house Dustin at least claims to be older than house Stark and they are still powerfull enough to be major bannermen. So marrying a woman who was not a virgin would have been a potential threat to that ancient bloodline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyarra Stark Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said: Why Willam Dustin married Barbrey Ryswell? After all house Dustin at least claims to be older than house Stark and they are still powerfull enough to be major bannermen. So marrying a woman who was not a virgin would have been a potential threat to that ancient bloodline. It would only have been a threat to the Dustin bloodline if Barbrey would have been pregnant with Brandon's child. In a situation like that, before the wedding, they would only have had to wait a few months after the last meeting between bride and lover, to ensure she wasn't pregnant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 7 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said: I was thinking of the Lannister marriage but this might be an other case of Lysa where proven fertility was needed particularly if the Dunk daughter theory is correct. Jon married Lysa specifically because she had been pregnant. What is the Dunk daughter theory? 7 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said: not a virgin but even if she was she would probably still play away from home People thought she was, and her marriage was not for love, but for binding the most powerful house in the realm to the new king and his house. And still, her children were bastards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elder brother jonothor dar Posted May 16, 2017 Author Share Posted May 16, 2017 She marries Gerold Lannister at some point. It is left open whether she slept with Dunk or not. The child would have been passed as an Osgrey and would need to be a girl as not to cause problems with the Lannister succesion. Dunk needs to get into the Tarth family tree somehow the theory gos it's his daughter with Webber pre Lannister that links him to Brienne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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