Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

81 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Next Season starts in July.......

 

previous versions

 

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Lord Friendzone

I agree, Jon has already died. So they probably dont need to kill him again.  And I still don't see why Dany HAS to die. I think many more people will including Jaime, Sansa, Cersei, Davos and obviously Rickon, and possibly Tyrion although I hope not.  But Dany and her dragons need to live so House Targaryen can go on in some way, to me a lot of this story is about their epic comeback, so killing off every freaking one of them makes no sense to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 17. 5. 2017 at 4:40 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

@Lord Friendzone

I agree, Jon has already died. So they probably dont need to kill him again.  And I still don't see why Dany HAS to die. I think many more people will including Jaime, Sansa, Cersei, Davos and obviously Rickon, and possibly Tyrion although I hope not.  But Dany and her dragons need to live so House Targaryen can go on in some way, to me a lot of this story is about their epic comeback, so killing off every freaking one of them makes no sense to me.

Rickon is already gone, Davos as much as I hate it likely. Tyrion won't die, GRRM's favourite character along wirh Arya ...  for his wife. Sansa will live in my opinion as much as fandom wants her dead (not you) and Jaime will die. Jaime alluded to it in his scene with Bron in Dorne on how he wants to die "in the arms of the woman he loves." that seems to be Brienne.

Dany is not the only Targaryen because here is Jon. In fact if we're going by your scenario that she has to live, her House Targaryen could die if she's infertile. So Jon is kinda needed here and in my opinion their child is the future of House Targaryen and not them or both of them. In other words, both of them are not necessary for it. I know a lot of people want them dead and while I do not want them dead, there's this idea that one of them will die in the big finale against Night King. Dragons will die 100% along with white walkers, magic to leave the Westeros once more.

Ending with Jon and Dany, dragons and eventually their child woud be seen as highly happy.

Edited by Lord Friendzone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do think their child will survive, hence definitely merging Ice and Fire, the Targaryen - Stark Dynasty. Thinking about it, if Dany dies before giving birth (just) then the prophecy denying her another child is still valid (just)?

And there's nothing pointing at Jon eventually riding a dragon in the books... Except R+L of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 5/17/2017 at 10:40 AM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

@Lord Friendzone

I agree, Jon has already died. So they probably dont need to kill him again.  And I still don't see why Dany HAS to die. I think many more people will including Jaime, Sansa, Cersei, Davos and obviously Rickon, and possibly Tyrion although I hope not.  But Dany and her dragons need to live so House Targaryen can go on in some way, to me a lot of this story is about their epic comeback, so killing off every freaking one of them makes no sense to me.

I'm on the fence about Sansa, but I think the main five--Jon, Dany, Bran, Tyrion, and Arya--are safe. In GRRM's 1993 outline, he included Dany along with the list of other characters he said would make it through "all three volumes" (as he then planned a trilogy). He has changed a lot since that outline, but he has always said he intends to stick with the 1991 ending.

Anyone who isn't one of the main five, including Sansa, is a potential death, but the main five are likely safe. 

Edited by Newstar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

I do think their child will survive, hence definitely merging Ice and Fire, the Targaryen - Stark Dynasty. Thinking about it, if Dany dies before giving birth (just) then the prophecy denying her another child is still valid (just)?

And there's nothing pointing at Jon eventually riding a dragon in the books... Except R+L of course.

That's understandable given where he and the story is. Show is furthe ahead but he had dreams of dragons, as you've mentioned R+L=J.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

I'm on the fence about Sansa, but I think the main five--Jon, Dany, Bran, Tyrion, and Arya--are safe. In GRRM's 1993 outline, he included Dany along with the list of other characters he said would make it through "all three volumes" (as he then planned a trilogy). He has changed a lot since that outline, but he has always said he intends to stick with the 1991 ending.

Anyone who isn't one of the main five, including Sansa, is a potential death, but the main five are likely safe. 

Show made Jaime and Cersei far than Sansa or Arya. IF Jon, Dany, Tyrion are alive ... can you see them three rulling because I can't imagine it. Not the way poeple have been presenting it on various sites. They might live but there has to be some sort of twist that will make it bittersweet. Not mentioning shocking deaths D&D are known for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Lord Friendzone said:

IF Jon, Dany, Tyrion are alive ... can you see them three rulling because I can't imagine it.

Sure, why not? Jon marries Dany, Tyrion is their Hand. Tyrion is already Dany's Hand, and he has always liked and respected Jon. Jon and Dany have a lot in common. They should get along just fine. There are all kinds of parallels between the three characters in the books. Jon, Dany, and Tyrion ending up as endgame king, endgame queen, and endgame hand would have a nice symmetry to it.

This ending is simple, sure, but maybe in the twenty years we've had to bat around theories, we've been overthinking the ending that's been staring us in the face the whole time. GRRM admitted that fans guessed the books' ending a long time ago. The show confirmed a number of other theories that were once scorned as being "too obvious," after all: R+L=J, the Hound being the gravedigger, etc.

 

Quote

They might live but there has to be some sort of twist that will make it bittersweet. Not mentioning shocking deaths D&D are known for.

I looked up a quote of GRRM's where he explained what he meant by a "bittersweet" ending. He said that he was going for the same tone as the end of LOTR. Specifically, when describing that ending, he said that Frodo lives but is never really whole again, and that people move on with their lives. Also, at the end of LOTR, none of the main (non-villainous) characters died. A number of them ended up happily married, in fact. The "Jon" of LOTR, Aragorn, married Arwen, had a prosperous and successful reign, and a long and happy marriage. GRRM made his hero a thinly-disguised Aragorn. He may well give him Aragorn's ending.

The bittersweet element GRRM seems to be hinting at isn't from death, it's from characters being traumatized as Frodo was traumatized, and characters getting on with their lives and doing their own thing. If that's the tone GRRM is going for, we're not going to see any of the major characters like Jon, Dany, or Tyrion die. 

Edited by Newstar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm having difficulty with a Jon/Dany pairing, and I think Jon would, too, if he knew his parentage.  Dany might be down with really close family bonding, but Jon wasn't raised that way.

of course, falling in love and maybe starting a family and *then* finding out would have that suitably epic Greek tragedy thing going on.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Quote

of course, falling in love and maybe starting a family and *then* finding out would have that suitably epic Greek tragedy thing going on.

I believed ASOIAF was once intended to be a fairly straightforward retelling of the Wars of the Roses before he started throwing all the dragons and such in. Even the published ASOIAF books have the WOTR tattooed all over them, which GRRM has cheerfully admitted, much like the Dance of the Dragons novella has the historical Anarchy tattooed all over the plot.

The WOTR were tragic, in that a lot of people died, but they ended happily enough in a marriage between a foreign conqueror raised in exile and a young noble with a claim to the throne. The marriage ended the strife between the warring houses and resulted in a prosperous reign, a decently happy union, and a new dynasty.

The LOTR books also ended among other things with a marriage between the new king and queen that, like the conclusion to the Wars of the Roses, resulted in a prosperous reign and a happy marriage.

GRRM was also inspired by the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy by Tad Williams, which also ended with the hero (Simon "Snowlock," LOL) conveniently discovering he is descended from royal blood, marrying the beautiful princess he loves and being crowned king.

To sum up, three of GRRM's main inspirations for ASOIAF--the LOTR books, the historical WOTR, and the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series--all ended pretty much the same way.

Why would ASOIAF end any differently?

GRRM has said several times that he intends to stick with the same ending. He has also explained what he meant by "bittersweet," and it had everything to do with the ending of LOTR, which all the main characters survived, and nothing to do with epic Greek tragedy.

Edited by Newstar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Newstar said:

(...)

To sum up, three of GRRM's main inspirations for ASOIAF--the LOTR books, the historical WOTR, and the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series--all ended pretty much the same way.

Why would ASOIAF end any differently?

(...)

Well, because:

1. "Inspiration" is not the same as  "copy/paste"

2. So far, GRRM has never been suspected of plagiat

3. Actually, this is exactly why ASOIAF would end differently

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

Well, because:

1. "Inspiration" is not the same as  "copy/paste"

2. So far, GRRM has never been suspected of plagiat

3. Actually, this is exactly why ASOIAF would end differently

GRRM used the Anarchy as the basis for the DOTD and gave it the same ending. All indications are that he intends to do the same with ASOIAF and the WOTR. Not plagiarism: inspiration.

I think the ending will be shocking in how predictable it will turn out to have been. GRRM has made it clear that anyone expecting tragedy in the ending will be disappointed, and the outline spelled out that the main five would survive, no matter how many other characters proved expendable. Coupled with the WOTR, the ending is staring us right in the face.

Edited by Newstar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Jon and Dany are aunt/nephew, then that is way too weird for me to go with as an acceptable relationship. And way too weird for Jon, too, presumably.  That's what I meant by Greek tragedy, all the damn incest.

I have a degree in medieval history. Part of the fun is watching it all go in the blender with a healthy dose of classic high fantasy.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

56 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

If Jon and Dany are aunt/nephew, then that is way too weird for me to go with as an acceptable relationship. And way too weird for Jon, too, presumably.  That's what I meant by Greek tragedy, all the damn incest.

I have a degree in medieval history. Part of the fun is watching it all go in the blender with a healthy dose of classic high fantasy.  

You may have a problem with reading incestuous romance, but GRRM has no problem writing it. He loves writing material about the historical Targs, who frequently practised incest. Heck, the biggest love story of ASOIAF to date is between a brother and sister....maybe to soften up the readers to accept an aunt/nephew endgame pairing.

With your degree in medieval history, once you were informed that the DOTD was based on the Anarchy, you could have predicted the ending of the DOTD without even reading the novella. He threw it into a blender with high fantasy, added dragons and some GRRM-type twists (Blood and Cheese, e.g.), but the outcome was still the same. That's my point. If ASOIAF is similar, and there's even more reason to believe the ASOIAF ending will match that of the WOTR, then we can do the same when it comes to predictions. The plot will weave all over the place just like the DOTD did, include all sorts of fantastical elements and GRRM twists, but it will end in the same place as the historical equivalent did.

As for Jon being horrified that the woman he loves is his aunt, we don't know how Jon would react. However, we do know that there are two uncle/niece marriages in the Stark family tree, no Targs required. We also know that Alys Karstark in ADWD was not outraged because her "uncle" was trying to marry her (he was really her cousin, but she considered him her uncle), but because of what he was trying to accomplish with the marriage (rob her of her birthright, get an heir off her and kill her). We don't know of any aunt/nephew marriages in ASOIAF, but if uncle/niece marriages are apparently no big deal in the North, I have trouble believing aunt/nephew marriages would be considered a sin against nature in the North.

Edited by Newstar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd categorise the Lannisters as more of a co-dependent train wreck than a love story, but.  My point was, regardless of my icky feelings, I think *Jon* would have icky feelings.  

(Also, I'm a Ricardian so my feelings re WotR are complex, and occasionally involve rows in pubs about filthy Tudor propaganda.)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

I'd categorise the Lannisters as more of a co-dependent train wreck than a love story, but.  My point was, regardless of my icky feelings, I think *Jon* would have icky feelings.  

He may, he may not. We'll have to see if indeed there's a Jon/Dany relationship, I guess. I do object to the idea that he would necessarily have an Oedipus-level reaction when learning the news, though, particularly considering what seems to be a blase attitude in the north towards uncle/niece marriages.

Moving away from Jon/Dany, I do think Jon will be the endgame king, but that seems to be a pretty uncontroversial opinion, I guess. The show seems to be pushing towards that more loudly than anything else. If anyone other than Jon wound up as king, I'd be shocked at this point.

I do look forward to seeing what the main five will end up doing if they do survive the series as GRRM suggested they would back in 1993. Maybe it is as simple as Jon being king, Dany being queen, Tyrion being Hand, Bran being lord of Winterfell, and Arya going off to have adventures or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Newstar I love your optimism, and you make excellent points that are hard to refute. I hope you're right, because I love Jon and Dany both and would be happy for them to survive and go on to prosper in some way.

I can't explain why I believe Dany will die, because there's nothing specifically in the text. For me it was MMD's "Then he will return, and not before" curse, which to me was like a siren blaring "all these things need to happen before Dany dies and is reunited with Drogo". Death in childbirth seemed the most obvious, and it made such an impression on me at the time that it's been hard to shake despite four subsequent books. I imagine it's coloured my perspective of Dany's story since AGoT, "knowing" that she probably won't ever see the house with the red door again, which is all she ever wanted. So if I'm wrong, I'd better go and read the books again with a happier endgame in mind. BRB.

And FWIW, Sansa is Elizabeth of York.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

@Newstar I love your optimism, and you make excellent points that are hard to refute. I hope you're right, because I love Jon and Dany both and would be happy for them to survive and go on to prosper in some way.

I can't explain why I believe Dany will die, because there's nothing specifically in the text. For me it was MMD's "Then he will return, and not before" curse, which to me was like a siren blaring "all these things need to happen before Dany dies and is reunited with Drogo". Death in childbirth seemed the most obvious, and it made such an impression on me at the time that it's been hard to shake despite four subsequent books. I imagine it's coloured my perspective of Dany's story since AGoT, "knowing" that she probably won't ever see the house with the red door again, which is all she ever wanted. So if I'm wrong, I'd better go and read the books again with a happier endgame in mind. BRB.

And FWIW, Sansa is Elizabeth of York.

Great post. I agree that many have an intuitive sense that Dany will die because it feels right for the story, and I'll freely admit that I thought so as well for a long time but thinking of the WOTR, LOTR and the outline--coupled with reading GRRM's quotes about what he considers to be a bittersweet ending--has made me wonder if perhaps I've been overthinking it all this time. 

Sansa certainly does bear some resemblances to Elizabeth of York, but she wouldn't be able to fulfill the role of healing warring factions to end the war the way someone with a claim to the Iron Throne would, and I also doubt that Dany would be marrying her any time soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Sansa is already united with House Lannister via her marriage to Tyrion, but I agree that's not much of a parallel to Elizabeth of York, and I honestly hope nothing further ever comes of their marriage other than respect and possibly some kind of peace that was partly a result of their cooperation. No sex though (please!).

I don't think we can match every character with their historical WOTR counterpart to predict the outcome of ASOIAF. If that was the case, Edward IV (Robert) married Margaret Beaufort (Cersei), unless you consider Elizabeth Woodville as Cersei. Henry VI's (Aerys) heir Edward of Lancaster isn't Rhaegar (Viserys maybe?) and Dany isn't Aerys' half-niece by the son of his mother's second husband. And in this scenario, who is Jon Snow? Aegon VI is Perkin Warbeck (if he's fake) but Jon doesn't really fit anywhere. And neither does Richard III for that matter.

I tried reading a thread about the comparisons but it was too much waffle. If there's a concise explanation out there I'd love to read it.

Edited by maudisdottir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • In S1E7, Benjen's horse returns to Castle Black without him. Jon asks, "Where's my uncle?" The scene then immediately cuts to Renly shouting, "Ned!" -- an early possible hint of Ned's true relationship to Jon.
  • In S1E2, Daenerys looks at her three dragon eggs, which are surrounded by candles. The scene then cuts to more flames, and pans up to reveal Jon Snow, perhaps hinting that he too is a dragon waiting to hatch.
  • Later in this scene, Tyrion says, "Life is full of these little ironies. My sister married the new king, and my repulsive nephew will be king after him." Tyrion then shoots a glance at Jon, the camera cuts to him, and there's a slight pause. If A+J=T, Jon is also Tyrion's nephew, and he may just become king as well.
  • In S1E3, Jeor tells Tyrion, "Your sister sits by the side of the king. Tell her we need help." If A+J=T, Tyrion has another sister (Daenerys) who sat by the side of a different king (Viserys) who can help against the coming winter with her dragons. In fact, the dragon eggs and Daenerys are in the next scene.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^The first two are great but you lost me with the last two. I'm not a fan of A+J=T and I don't think the show is hinting at it.

Now I'm going to have to go back and watch season 1 again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now