Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

319 posts in this topic

48 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

I'm still unsure about who kills Cercei. The show left out the "valonqar" part of the prophecy, right? Maybe it ends up being Arya since the show mentions that so much or it could still end up being Jaime as that would certainly be more shocking since he is still very much Cersei's lapdog. Think Arya might end up killing LF with his own blade.

I confirmed with a few on-line searches that the show left out the valonqar part of the prophecy. If D&D decided to have Arya be the one to kill Cersei, it would make sense to leave out the valonqar part -- which seems to make it even more likely to be Jaime in the books where the valonqar reference is part of the prophecy.

LF's fate on the show is in spoiler box below:

According the leaks -- Bran has a vision of all of the bad stuff that LF has done -- tells Sansa and Arya -- Sansa sentences LF to death -- Arya carries out the sentence with the dagger -- no more LF.

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That large of a departure from the books would mean that the show really can't be relied on as any kind of guide for whatever the author told them the end was.

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11 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I confirmed with a few on-line searches that the show left out the valonqar part of the prophecy. If D&D decided to have Arya be the one to kill Cersei, it would make sense to leave out the valonqar part -- which seems to make it even more likely to be Jaime in the books where the valonqar reference is part of the prophecy.

LF's fate on the show is in spoiler box below:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

According the leaks -- Bran has a vision of all of the bad stuff that LF has done -- tells Sansa and Arya -- Sansa sentences LF to death -- Arya carries out the sentence with the dagger -- no more LF.

 

Definitely possible. Another possibility is that they may have felt that the valonqar part of the prophecy would make Cersei's fate too obvious - don't recall whether the show has ever established Jaime as being the younger twin. They may have done so in extraneous material. D&D do love their shocking moments so while it appears that Arya is being telegraphed as Cersei's killer, it wouldn't surprise me if it ends up being Jaime since that would certainly be a more shocking turn of events.

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34 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That large of a departure from the books would mean that the show really can't be relied on as any kind of guide for whatever the author told them the end was.

I sort of agree and sort of disagree. I think what D&D have said is the the outcome for the main characters will be essentially the same. So what I think that means is that minor characters can have dramatically different outcomes. And major characters can have some deviation in how they get to their ultimate outcomes. But which major characters live or die will be the same and what positions the survivors end up having will be the same. So if Jaime kills Cersei in the books, Cersei has to die -- but not necessarily by Jaime. So the outcome for Cersei (being murdered) will be the same -- but there can be deviations in how she gets there (Arya rather than Jaime).

At least, that is how I have always understood what D&D had said about following GRRM's outline for the ending.

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24 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I sort of agree and sort of disagree. I think what D&D have said is the the outcome for the main characters will be essentially the same. So what I think that means is that minor characters can have dramatically different outcomes. And major characters can have some deviation in how they get to their ultimate outcomes. But which major characters live or die will be the same and what positions the survivors end up having will be the same. So if Jaime kills Cersei in the books, Cersei has to die -- but not necessarily by Jaime. So the outcome for Cersei (being murdered) will be the same -- but there can be deviations in how she gets there (Arya rather than Jaime).

At least, that is how I have always understood what D&D had said about following GRRM's outline for the ending.

I guess I see Arya instead of Jamie killing Cersei as a huge deviation.  I agree that whomever of the main characters will live/die will be the same, but to change not only their manner of death but to have a different other main character be the killer?  That is further afield than I expected them to go, I would see that as a massive, massive change.  And if Jamie isn't going to kill his sister in his final act of atonement, then what in the hell is his purpose of still existing?  And unless GRRM is letting him live, is someone else going to kill him too?  That's crazy.  

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If Cersei ends up being killed by someone who isn't one of her brothers, my guess would be that

  1. Tyrion is the valonqar in the books. D&D love St. Tyrion way too much to have him do anything morally questionable.
  2. There is no valonqar. Maggie the Frog detested Cersei (she knew she was about to push her best friend down a well, after all) and decided to spite her. Or maybe the prophecy was real, and it just didn't come true. 

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41 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I guess I see Arya instead of Jamie killing Cersei as a huge deviation.  I agree that whomever of the main characters will live/die will be the same, but to change not only their manner of death but to have a different other main character be the killer?  That is further afield than I expected them to go, I would see that as a massive, massive change.  And if Jamie isn't going to kill his sister in his final act of atonement, then what in the hell is his purpose of still existing?  And unless GRRM is letting him live, is someone else going to kill him too?  That's crazy.  

I have always suspected that Jaime kills himself -- that can be the same in the books and the show. But that conclusion is PURE speculation on my part -- more of a gut feeling than based on evidence of such a suicide.

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

That large of a departure from the books would mean that the show really can't be relied on as any kind of guide for whatever the author told them the end was.

Eh, I doubt GRRM gave D&D anything more than vague directions like "Sansa will eventually realize the full extent of LF's treachery and have him killed".

For that matter, I find it hard to believe that Arya would indeed kill Cersei. I mean, for all that she's on Arya's list, Cersei doesn't really have a personal significance to Arya's story and character development. As opposed to that, Tyrion's, Jaime's, or Sansa's characters have been shaped by their interactions with Cersei (not that I believe that Sansa is the valoquar). Arya killing Cersei would be hugely dramatically unsatisfying. We've seen enough of Arya's killfest, so it would be great to let some other characters kill as well.

D&D can be n00bs, but even they should realize that Jaime strangling Cersei should become a much more iconic scene than Arya using her hyperassassin skills yet again on a woman she has never even talked to onscreen before.

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18 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

Eh, I doubt GRRM gave D&D anything more than vague directions like "Sansa will eventually realize the full extent of LF's treachery and have him killed".

For that matter, I find it hard to believe that Arya would indeed kill Cersei. I mean, for all that she's on Arya's list, Cersei doesn't really have a personal significance to Arya's story and character development. As opposed to that, Tyrion's, Jaime's, or Sansa's characters have been shaped by their interactions with Cersei (not that I believe that Sansa is the valoquar). Arya killing Cersei would be hugely dramatically unsatisfying. We've seen enough of Arya's killfest, so it would be great to let some other characters kill as well.

D&D can be n00bs, but even they should realize that Jaime strangling Cersei should become a much more iconic scene than Arya using her hyperassassin skills yet again on a woman she has never even talked to onscreen before.

 I guess it could be the show doing misdirection.  But, their history is of clearly telegraphing what is going to happen.....suggesting that Arya killing Cersei....and I agree it would be weird and unsatisfying beyond the general satisfaction of Mystique Stark's being a badass....might well happen on the show.

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@UnmaskedLurker

As to the dragon development:

Spoiler

We can safely say that the Viserion thing is very, very unlikely to happen in the books.

1. The dragon doesn't have three heads in the show. It does in the books.

2. We'll get a Second Dance in the books, but obviously not in the show. Aegon might get one of the dragons after all - a dragon that will then eventually pass on to Jon. Meaning we might also get ourselves some dragon fights.

3. But the most important point is that there is no hint whatsoever that there is a Dark Lord guy leading the Others in the books. There is no head Other leading the Others from the front in the books. If there is no such guy in the books the very same guy doesn't need an undead dragon mount.

4. We have it that the undead Viserion is apparently crucial in bringing down the Wall. The books have their own buildup for that - the Horn of Joramun and the earthquake caused by it. Dany's dragons in the books will never reach a size in which they could be crucial in bringing down the Wall. The very idea is silly.

5. Does it make sense to assume that a dragon wight could fly or breath ice? I don't think so. George's wights are slow zombies who don't depict any magical abilities like ice breath, etc. A slow dragon zombie is not likely to be able to flip its wings quickly enough to fly again. Just as wight horses don't exactly seem to have to ability to fall into a gallop or human wights don't exactly participate in a marathon.

In addition, Viserion would have to be downed to be killed by the Others/wights. That makes it very likely his wings would have been destroyed, making it clear he could never fly again as a wight even if dragon wights were quick and agile enough to fly.

6. George has those ice spiders foreshadowed. I'm sure they will show up as the mounts of the Others when they are attacking the Wall. They could even help them climb the Wall.

7. If the Others needed dragon wights George could give them some by having them reanimate dragon corpses that have been preserved in the ice. Some such might exist.

In light of all that it is safe to say that we won't see the show development here being reflected in the books. The show takes a very conventional video game approach to the Others.

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20 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I sort of agree and sort of disagree. I think what D&D have said is the the outcome for the main characters will be essentially the same. So what I think that means is that minor characters can have dramatically different outcomes. And major characters can have some deviation in how they get to their ultimate outcomes. But which major characters live or die will be the same and what positions the survivors end up having will be the same. So if Jaime kills Cersei in the books, Cersei has to die -- but not necessarily by Jaime. So the outcome for Cersei (being murdered) will be the same -- but there can be deviations in how she gets there (Arya rather than Jaime).

At least, that is how I have always understood what D&D had said about following GRRM's outline for the ending.

I'm sort of inclined to believe that this may be true for certain core characters like Dany and Jon.

I expect Jon to die both in the books and the show, sacrificing himself for Daenerys and the world because that's going to be the point of his second life. Perhaps they will get a miracle child to continue the dynasty, perhaps not. But that's the outcome I see there. In the show Jon is most likely going to die while putting down the Dark Lord, in the books he may have a completely different arc involving his lonely mission on dragonback to the Heart of Winter where he is going to face the true origin of the Others in the books. If he ends up being imbued with fire magic like Mel is he may be the only character capable to withstand the insane cold up there. And a dragon and a burning sword should enable him to cleanse everything with fire that's *living* up there. I imagine the power behind the Others is a twisted greenseer who has preserved his or her life beneath a weirwood (grove) covered in ice. That would be the place where the Others were created.

But with Bran, Arya, and Sansa it is already questionable. They are much older and much less so than the characters in the books. Is Bran ever going to return to Winterfell? If so, what's the point of that? It seems he has no intention to ever rule anything so he could just as well stay in that cave and speak through the trees and some visions.

Not to mention that the characters are all grown-ups in the show but still children in the books. That will play a role in what they are going to do and what to do in the books.

And with white-washed characters like Tyrion it is even more difficult. The Tyrion in the books might have to pay for the murder of Shae and the treatment of Tysha. That is not going to happen in the show, necessitating a changed or completely different ending for the character.

The revelation of Joff's true murderer could also help resolve the Lannister siblings issues, especially those between Jaime and Tyrion (which are pretty much non-existent in the show). In the books they might never be able to rebuild their relationship.

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On 12/08/2017 at 0:38 AM, Suzanna Stormborn said:
  Hide contents

WoW does have the dragon horn on the cover after all.

That's not the actual book cover. It's fan art.

The Blackwater Rush is described as "deep and swift" with "wicked and treacherous" currents. So it's not implausible that Jaime and Bronn fell into a deep part of the river and the treacherous current carries them downstream somewhere.

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17 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

That's not the actual book cover. It's fan art.

It is fan art (post from the redditor who made it), but GRRM did say last year that it's the real cover "for the moment":

Quote

playstationsupe 

George is the black cover with the horn the real cover or not ?

grrm 

Yes, for the moment.

Though these things have been known to change.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html?thread=23539807#t23539807

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On 8/12/2017 at 11:33 AM, Lord Varys said:

@UnmaskedLurker

As to the dragon development:

  Hide contents

We can safely say that the Viserion thing is very, very unlikely to happen in the books.

1. The dragon doesn't have three heads in the show. It does in the books.

2. We'll get a Second Dance in the books, but obviously not in the show. Aegon might get one of the dragons after all - a dragon that will then eventually pass on to Jon. Meaning we might also get ourselves some dragon fights.

3. But the most important point is that there is no hint whatsoever that there is a Dark Lord guy leading the Others in the books. There is no head Other leading the Others from the front in the books. If there is no such guy in the books the very same guy doesn't need an undead dragon mount.

4. We have it that the undead Viserion is apparently crucial in bringing down the Wall. The books have their own buildup for that - the Horn of Joramun and the earthquake caused by it. Dany's dragons in the books will never reach a size in which they could be crucial in bringing down the Wall. The very idea is silly.

5. Does it make sense to assume that a dragon wight could fly or breath ice? I don't think so. George's wights are slow zombies who don't depict any magical abilities like ice breath, etc. A slow dragon zombie is not likely to be able to flip its wings quickly enough to fly again. Just as wight horses don't exactly seem to have to ability to fall into a gallop or human wights don't exactly participate in a marathon.

In addition, Viserion would have to be downed to be killed by the Others/wights. That makes it very likely his wings would have been destroyed, making it clear he could never fly again as a wight even if dragon wights were quick and agile enough to fly.

6. George has those ice spiders foreshadowed. I'm sure they will show up as the mounts of the Others when they are attacking the Wall. They could even help them climb the Wall.

7. If the Others needed dragon wights George could give them some by having them reanimate dragon corpses that have been preserved in the ice. Some such might exist.

In light of all that it is safe to say that we won't see the show development here being reflected in the books. The show takes a very conventional video game approach to the Others.

The show will have the dragon having three heads, but that prophecy is misunderstood, and never had anything to do with Dragon riders. 

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42 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

The show will have the dragon having three heads, but that prophecy is misunderstood, and never had anything to do with Dragon riders. 

How and why should it? The show never even mentioned that prophecy. And there is no reason to believe that it will. The show doesn't give shit about prophecy. The way they introduced the prophecy about the promised prince was a joke.

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Posted (edited)

Confirmed, Rhaegar and Lyanna were married therefore Jon is legitimate. Obviously a document of annulment sitting at the Citadel is stupid. If that was the case then this would be widely known. In the books, I expect Martin to go the polygamy route.

Edited by Consigliere
spelling

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1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

Confirmed, Rhaegar and Lyanna were married therefore Jon is legitimate. Obviously a document of annulment sitting at the Citadel is stupid. If that was the case then this would be widely known. In the books, I expect Martin to go the polygamy route.

As you probably could have guessed -- I agree with you. I understand why the show went the route it did -- having a "secret annulment and marriage" -- because the show never really went into the polygamy issue and the audience might not react well to the idea in any event. The books, on the other hand, have set up the idea that polygamy is a possibility -- without making it too obvious unless someone is looking for it and open to the idea. Given the situation Rhaegar and Lyanna appear to be described to have been in the books (admitting that many of the details are quite fuzzy at this point) -- polygamy really is the most plausible solution.

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Posted (edited)

On 8/12/2017 at 5:45 PM, Lord Varys said:

I'm sort of inclined to believe that this may be true for certain core characters like Dany and Jon.

I expect Jon to die both in the books and the show, sacrificing himself for Daenerys and the world because that's going to be the point of his second life. Perhaps they will get a miracle child to continue the dynasty, perhaps not. But that's the outcome I see there. In the show Jon is most likely going to die while putting down the Dark Lord, in the books he may have a completely different arc involving his lonely mission on dragonback to the Heart of Winter where he is going to face the true origin of the Others in the books. If he ends up being imbued with fire magic like Mel is he may be the only character capable to withstand the insane cold up there. And a dragon and a burning sword should enable him to cleanse everything with fire that's *living* up there. I imagine the power behind the Others is a twisted greenseer who has preserved his or her life beneath a weirwood (grove) covered in ice. That would be the place where the Others were created.

(...)

I tend to think it will go the other way: Dany will die and not Jon. Jon is the PtwP, there is no doubt in my mind about it, and therefore Dany can only be his Nissa Nissa, his Ligthbringer... through her dragons - the only effective weapon against the Others. And Jon + Drogon scene seems to foreshadow their ultimate bonding : Dany needs to die to make it happen.

So far, Season 7 seems to confirm many of my theories (granted, not the one stating that Tyrion will ride Viserion if the Series leaks are confirmed - very likely so):

- Dany too "Targaryen" to be a fit ruler (Varys and Tyrion discussing)

- Jon the legitimate King / Prince, through blood, marriage... And moral values

- Jon + Drogon eventually

- Sansa the YMBQ (re. her conversation with Arya in E05): she has become a cynical politician thanks to her awful experiences (and LF) - but she still has a good heart. Just like Tyrion... 

- Sansa and Tyrion to remain wife and husband..? 

- Or Sansa in love with Jon? Not sure about who will rule with Sansa in the end. Tyrion or Jon (only a cousin after all - remember the early GRRM drafts)?

Edited by Jo Maltese
spelling

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5 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

I tend to think it will go the other way: Dany will die and not Jon. Jon is the PtwP, there is no doubt in my mind about it, and therefore Dany can only be his Nissa Nissa, his Ligthbringer... through her dragons - the only effective weapon against the Others. And Jon + Drogon scene seems to foreshadow their ultimate bonding : Dany needs to die to make it happen.

So far, Season 7 seems to confirm many of my theories (granted, not the one stating that Tyrion will ride Viserion if the Series leaks are confirmed - very likely so):

- Dany too "Targaryen" to be a fit ruler (Varys and Tyrion discussing)

- Jon the legitimate King / Prince, through blood, marriage... And moral values

- Jon + Drogon eventually

Jon having a Moment with Drogon and not Rhaegal was very interesting. It also seems like confirmation of Dany's death if the show sticks to the book rules of "one dragon, one rider" (as long as the rider lives), doesn't it? If Jon is going to ride Drogon, he can't do so until Dany dies (at least by book rules, the TV writers can do whatever they want).

I thought that the way that Jon's interaction with Drogon in 7x05 and Tyrion's interaction with Rhaegal in 6x02 were framed was very similar. Does that plus Jon and Drogon having a moment mean that Tyrion will get Rhaegal, or that Rhaegal will die before Rhaegal gets a rider?

 

Quote

- Sansa and Tyrion to remain wife and husband..? 

Highly unlikely, in my opinion, although it's true that Tyrion is the only guy regarding whom TV Sansa has expressed any positive feelings outside her own family. In the leaked outlines for 7x02, it's indicated that Sansa "likes," "trusts," "respects" and even "is fond of" Tyrion, and Tyrion similarly shows a lack of rancour towards Sansa, so at least if/when they meet again there won't be any drama, but it's a big leap from there to Sansa and Tyrion remaining married, particularly since Sansa is so concerned with power and independence, both of which she'd have to relinquish in going back to Tyrion, and since the leaked outlines for aired S7 episodes spell out that Tyrion is in love with Dany.

...It's not impossible, of course, at least until either Tyrion or Sansa dies, but it is unlikely, in my opinion.

 

Quote

- Or Sansa in love with Jon? Not sure about who will rule with Sansa in the end. Tyrion or Jon (only a cousin after all - remember the early GRRM drafts)?

Considering that 7x05 spelled out that Sansa is not only resentful of Jon's rule (which was already hinted) but is secretly hoping that Jon dies to clear the way for her to rule the North, I think we can write off that possibility. Sansa's only OTP in the show at this point is Sansa/power, although given that in GOT/ASOIAF it's those who never sought power to begin with who outlive and ultimately rise higher than the ambitious ones, I wonder what Sansa being power-hungry according to the TV writers, coupled with the comparisons to Cersei, means for her endgame.

If the Arya/Jon/Tyrion triangle has been changed for the books, judging from S7, Arya was swapped out for Dany, not Sansa, since Jon is falling in love with Dany and Tyrion has apparently already fallen in love with her.

Edited by Newstar

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Dany isn't a fighter. She doesn't have a sword. She is not going to fight the Dark Lord.

And she didn't die and wasn't sent back only for one purpose - to defeat Evil Incarnate.

That is Jon's purpose. And when it is over he can die.

He may very well be the promised prince, after all. Because, you know, the promised prince might be sacrificial lamb who is going to pay for the sins of humanity with his blood and life. We don't know what his purpose is or how he can fulfill his destiny. Jesus went up into heaven, too, you know. And Frodo and Gandalf left Middle-earth.

If Jon is the great hero there to save everyone he will die. Since that's clearly his role in the show, and most likely also his role in the books he will die.

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