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[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4


Suzanna Stormborn

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2 hours ago, Faint said:

I think readers would do well to re-read the end of Jon's eighth chapter from A Game of Thrones to get a sense of where his story is going. 

You mean Aemon's speech to Jon about needing to choose between duty and family? Do you mean that he'll be forced to abandon his romance with Dany to fight the Others and will die in the attempt, or something else?

I have two big problems with what I see Jon's two possible endgames at this point:

1. If he's destined to die heroically fighting the WWs...why make such a big deal out of his parentage and legitimacy?

2. If he's destined to become endgame king and reign for the next 40 years or whatever...why kill him off and resurrect him in a way that (in the books at least) will make him effectively a zombie?

I can't get around either, and GRRM's recent "fire wight" comments about Beric--which he said were intended as foreshadowing for Jon--also point away from a King Jon endgame to me. ASOIAF gets plenty weird, but not so weird as to have the endgame sits-the-throne-for-the-next-several-decades king be a zombie for all intents and purposes. On the other hand, who cares whether Jon is legitimate or not if he's just going to die again anyway? 

1 hour ago, The Prince who was not pro said:

Where are those filtered outlines for the episode 7x02?

/Freefolk.

Short 7x02 outline:

"The note tells them that they need Dany's help to defeat the Night King and that Dany needs their help to defeat Cersei. Both Sansa and Jon admit to liking and trusting Tyrion."

Extended 7x02 outline:

"For one thing, [the invitation]'s written by Tyrion Lannister, a man both Sansa and Jon knew and respected."

"...Jon counters that they both know Tyrion. Sansa herself said he was a good man. Does she really think they'd betray him?

Sansa points out that all they have a letter. Perhaps it's a trick. Perhaps Tyrion is dead and this is all a trap. Besides, she might be fond of Tyrion but he's not family. It's what Jon told her last year; they have so many enemies now. They have to stick together."

There's a lot of ASOIAF speculation that Sansa is going to go up against Tyrion---Tyrion is in a downward spiral in the books and may decide he wants revenge against Sansa for betraying him, Tyrion is suggested by some as a candidate for the "savage giant" Sansa is destined to slay, etc. etc.--but judging from the show, if/when they reunite they seem like they'll be on good terms, although I doubt it will translate into anything like a remarriage.

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3 hours ago, Faint said:

I think readers would do well to re-read the end of Jon's eighth chapter from A Game of Thrones to get a sense of where his story is going. I'm not entirely convinced that Jon becomes the KITN in the books. I lean towards that being a show invention and oversimplification. Stannis will not lose to the Boltons in Martin's story, and the point of Jon's story has always been of resisting temptation. 

Depending when and how Stannis dies Jon certainly could become some sort of de facto or informal king, even more so if his true heritage were out by then - although I doubt that will be the case considering the road the show takes with the Dany-Jon love story. The one thing I can take seriously there is that they will fall for each other without knowing who Jon actually is so that this whole thing is truly a story about the people involved and not (only) some sort of political or dynastic marriage alliance.

However, the idea of another King in the North feels just wrong. The concept cannot be properly fitted into the framework of them trying to build a united front against the Others.

I mean, we can sit down a while and try to ponder how we would write such a story. Who would for what reason try to push Jon to declare himself king? If you did that you came up with the kind of convoluted ridiculous mess the show has gotten itself into because pretty much all people involved would have to act against their own interests.

If we imagine that the story in the books has Stannis defeat the Boltons then Jon won't have any chance to show his prowess as a battle commander and military leader to the North. He is stuck at the Wall, and dealing with the NW and wildlings doesn't prepare or qualify to rule the North. It doesn't even put you into a position to actually speak eye to eye to any truly great lord in the North. The Lord of White Harbor, for instance, is not going to accept requests, demands, or orders from a (former) Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. And why should he?

Focusing on the threat of the Others is also not exactly going to raise Jon's standing or reputation with the lords of the North or the Realm at large. They don't live all that close to the Wall, nor are they going to witness what he is doing firsthand.

He may be noticed later on when the entire Realm begins to consider to take the threat of the Others seriously, but not as a king or pretender to the Iron Throne but as the man who focuses on the common enemy. 

I hope this Dragonpit council idea is based on an idea from George. I'd love to see Jon showing at some sort of Great Council forming during some sort of uncertain truce between Aegon and Daenerys, with many other major lords and players showing up, too. There has to come a time in the books when the entire Realm really discusses this problem just as there came a time when the Realm learned that Daenerys lived and had three dragons. It took them some time but there will come a point when they won't be able to ignore the situation any longer.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

You mean Aemon's speech to Jon about needing to choose between duty and family? Do you mean that he'll be forced to abandon his romance with Dany to fight the Others and will die in the attempt, or something else?

I have two big problems with what I see Jon's two possible endgames at this point:

1. If he's destined to die heroically fighting the WWs...why make such a big deal out of his parentage and legitimacy?

 

Don't make such a fuzz out of his back story. It is just a mystery whose son he is and whether his parents were (legally/properly) married or not.

That is not necessarily going to be important for the future plot of the books, nor for the outcome of their own story. I mean, there is a lot of stuff where George seemed to set up a future conflict between certain characters and then something different happened (Robb-Joff, Jaime-Bran, Theon-Robb, etc.). The fact that Jon is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna and that they may have been (sort of) legally married, etc. doesn't mean anything as to who is going to sit the Iron Throne in the end. It doesn't even give us a hint whether he will sit it for a time.

And, quite frankly, the fact that fandom cares so much about Jon's legitimacy, etc. isn't exactly mirrored by the importance this question gets in the books. Jon is not set up as a character who would want to become king. And it is quite clear that nobody in this series is going to become king who doesn't want to be king.

If Dany ends up taking the throne and she and Jon marry then he can rule Westeros for a short time at her side as prince or king consort. But the question whether he will survive the series or not is completely different from that.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

2. If he's destined to become endgame king and reign for the next 40 years or whatever...why kill him off and resurrect him in a way that (in the books at least) will make him effectively a zombie?

 

That is the question. And after the punch the Pink Letter dealt me - I really got sick reading that - I was flabbergasted by his murder shortly afterwards. That simply could not be. It makes no sense if you go with a conventional idea of Jon and/or Dany ruling the Realm in the end as successful monarch(s).

But in light of the prophecy, the mission beyond the Wall, the (as of yet completely unknown) destiny of the promised prince it may make a lot of sense. The idea that being the promised prince/savior is going to mean that this person will survive to rule the realms of men, etc. was always founded on pretty much nothing but wishful thinking.

In this series the main characters will last until the finale but there quite a few of them will die. 

And Jon is the guy best suited for that thing. He swore a vow to pretty much give everything to save mankind. Why shouldn't he do that? What kind of story would that be if he George gave him some of fairy-tale ending with everything working out for him fine. That's not how he treats his characters. Just look at Tyrion, Brienne, Jaime, Theon, Bran, Arya, Catelyn, Cersei, etc. Remember how they look, how they were mutilated, injured, killed, think about the horrors they had to live through.

The stakes will only rise when the Others finally come, the characters will suffer even more, they will have to pay and give up even more to get what they want.

And we are expecting that Jon of all people - the one who is closest to the enemy and very likely to be play a huge role in the fight against them -is going to get out of his vows, gets the girl, and the throne? That is simply not very likely. It doesn't fit with the tone and the theme of the series at all.

I mean, people think I'm this kind of mad Dany fanatic (which is crap) but when thinking about her I really wonder what suffering George will have in for her. Is 'the fairest woman in the world' going to be horribly disfigured in some sort of assassination attempt or accident? How is George going to mutilate her? That she will have to pay for the things she is going to get is essentially a given. Those three treasons are treasons because she is going to be betrayed. And they should have some bad repercussions for her, too. Also for the traitors, of course.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

I can't get around either, and GRRM's recent "fire wight" comments about Beric--which he said were intended as foreshadowing for Jon--also point away from a King Jon endgame to me. ASOIAF gets plenty weird, but not so weird as to have the endgame sits-the-throne-for-the-next-several-decades king be a zombie for all intents and purposes. On the other hand, who cares whether Jon is legitimate or not if he's just going to die again anyway? 

Well, it can have effects for the dynasty if Dany and he have a miracle child. That should mean the Targaryen dynasty is properly restored and there is a future even when Daenerys dies in old age.

Jon was never set up as this guy who should be king. If that was the case he would have been Aegon or even Arya. Have him hidden somewhere where he could finally make a move, or have him travel around incognito getting to know people, making connections, acquiring skills, and then have him hatch from the dragon egg, so to speak, and make his claim known.

But with Jon's Wall-and-Others story that plot only works when you make the entire story about him. And if that was the point we wouldn't have a Daenerys in the story.

I'd have preferred Dany-Jon as some sort of Jaehaerys-Alysanne come again scenario at the end. Two people who love each other and learned how to rule and do now their best to better the lives of the their people and rebuild what was destroyed.

But if we are honest that prospect got very, very unlikely after Jon's death. People rooting for that - or the 'King Jon' ending - usually also feel the need to argue against the possibility that Jon died at all or that his resurrection is going to cost him all that much - and both was never very likely but gets less and less likely the more we learn from George.

If George wanted Jon to be some king in the end he would never have killed him. There is no point to this plot line unless it ties in to the Others plot. And at the end of that road was always certain doom. Even more so after it became clear that Jon is most likely going to be a dead man already when he fights the Others.

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2 hours ago, Newstar said:

1. If he's destined to die heroically fighting the WWs...why make such a big deal out of his parentage and legitimacy?

It goes back to that scene with Aemon and the ever greater temptation. He is continually tempted to break his vows, each time greater than the last, and each time he will hold steadfast.

First it was to avenge his father and fight with Robb against the Lannisters. Next it was the offer to save Arya and have Winterfell for himself. Whereas the last, greatest temptation will be the throne and Daeneyers. 

I am also not very confident about Jon dying. I am much more certain about Daenerys' fate than his. 

What I cannot envision is him taking the throne. That is just so against his character. I find it far more likely that he goes and lives among the Wildings than that. Or even him becoming Coldhands 2.0 to Bran's Three-Eyed Crow 2.0. 

There is also this point that keeps being reinforced in the story that many seem to keep ignoring. Jon Snow has always been Jon Snow. While we know that he is, in fact, a Targaryen and Stark, he would never define himself that way because he was never brought up that way.

So what if there is a paper signed by Robb saying he is a Stark or a dusty scroll proving that he is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? He was never raised that way. That is not who he is. Someone coming up to him and telling him he is king does not change everything that came before. 

Besides, these kind of conventional fantasy storylines are anathema to Martin.  There are no simple solutions and rainbows at the end of his stories. 

The same, by the way, applies to Daenerys. She might get her Iron Throne and a child (both of which I am quite certain about), but the former will be to rule over a pile of ashes and the latter will kill her.

If there is one rule that looks unbreakable in Martin's universe, it's that his characters never get what they want. 

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1 hour ago, Faint said:

What I cannot envision is him taking the throne. That is just so against his character. I find it far more likely that he goes and lives among the Wildings than that. Or even him becoming Coldhands 2.0 to Bran's Three-Eyed Crow 2.0. 

This isn't a fairy-tale. Nobody is going to get what he wants or deserves (aside from the villains). And the wildling culture might very well die. The Others should kill a lot of people before everything is said an done. Vast regions of Westeros should be depopulated by the end.

1 hour ago, Faint said:

There is also this point that keeps being reinforced in the story that many seem to keep ignoring. Jon Snow has always been Jon Snow. While we know that he is, in fact, a Targaryen and Stark, he would never define himself that way because he was never brought up that way.

So what if there is a paper signed by Robb saying he is a Stark or a dusty scroll proving that he is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? He was never raised that way. That is not who he is. Someone coming up to him and telling him he is king does not change everything that came before. 

That is partially true. But names and titles do change you. Look what being a prince or a king does to many of the people in the books. Being a dragon should have its effect on Jon Snow, whether he wants it or not. Just as truly becoming 'Lord (Commander) Snow' inevitably changed his entire attitude towards his (former) friends.

In that context one should also not forget the entire 'kill the boy' advice. That might just happen. Jon might literally kill himself by giving his life to save everyone else. Without there even being a man.

1 hour ago, Faint said:

Besides, these kind of conventional fantasy storylines are anathema to Martin.  There are no simple solutions and rainbows at the end of his stories. 

Exactly. That's why neither Jon nor Daenerys will ever get some sort of private paradise or retirement. Not even Davos might get that.

1 hour ago, Faint said:

The same, by the way, applies to Daenerys. She might get her Iron Throne and a child (both of which I am quite certain about), but the former will be to rule over a pile of ashes and the latter will kill her.

If there is one rule that looks unbreakable in Martin's universe, it's that his characters never get what they want. 

Dany doesn't want that chair. She wants a home and a quiet happy life. And she most likely is never going to get any of that. Perhaps a fortnight of happiness with Jon and then a decades full of misery and copper counting at the side of ugly Tyrion. Thinking about that - perhaps she should kill herself, after all.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Depending when and how Stannis dies Jon certainly could become some sort of de facto or informal king, even more so if his true heritage were out by then - although I doubt that will be the case considering the road the show takes with the Dany-Jon love story. The one thing I can take seriously there is that they will fall for each other without knowing who Jon actually is so that this whole thing is truly a story about the people involved and not (only) some sort of political or dynastic marriage alliance.

However, the idea of another King in the North feels just wrong. The concept cannot be properly fitted into the framework of them trying to build a united front against the Others.

I mean, we can sit down a while and try to ponder how we would write such a story. Who would for what reason try to push Jon to declare himself king? If you did that you came up with the kind of convoluted ridiculous mess the show has gotten itself into because pretty much all people involved would have to act against their own interests.

If we imagine that the story in the books has Stannis defeat the Boltons then Jon won't have any chance to show his prowess as a battle commander and military leader to the North. He is stuck at the Wall, and dealing with the NW and wildlings doesn't prepare or qualify to rule the North. It doesn't even put you into a position to actually speak eye to eye to any truly great lord in the North. The Lord of White Harbor, for instance, is not going to accept requests, demands, or orders from a (former) Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. And why should he?

Focusing on the threat of the Others is also not exactly going to raise Jon's standing or reputation with the lords of the North or the Realm at large. They don't live all that close to the Wall, nor are they going to witness what he is doing firsthand.

He may be noticed later on when the entire Realm begins to consider to take the threat of the Others seriously, but not as a king or pretender to the Iron Throne but as the man who focuses on the common enemy. 

I hope this Dragonpit council idea is based on an idea from George. I'd love to see Jon showing at some sort of Great Council forming during some sort of uncertain truce between Aegon and Daenerys, with many other major lords and players showing up, too. There has to come a time in the books when the entire Realm really discusses this problem just as there came a time when the Realm learned that Daenerys lived and had three dragons. It took them some time but there will come a point when they won't be able to ignore the situation any longer.

Don't make such a fuzz out of his back story. It is just a mystery whose son he is and whether his parents were (legally/properly) married or not.

That is not necessarily going to be important for the future plot of the books, nor for the outcome of their own story. I mean, there is a lot of stuff where George seemed to set up a future conflict between certain characters and then something different happened (Robb-Joff, Jaime-Bran, Theon-Robb, etc.). The fact that Jon is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna and that they may have been (sort of) legally married, etc. doesn't mean anything as to who is going to sit the Iron Throne in the end. It doesn't even give us a hint whether he will sit it for a time.

And, quite frankly, the fact that fandom cares so much about Jon's legitimacy, etc. isn't exactly mirrored by the importance this question gets in the books. Jon is not set up as a character who would want to become king. And it is quite clear that nobody in this series is going to become king who doesn't want to be king.

If Dany ends up taking the throne and she and Jon marry then he can rule Westeros for a short time at her side as prince or king consort. But the question whether he will survive the series or not is completely different from that.

That is the question. And after the punch the Pink Letter dealt me - I really got sick reading that - I was flabbergasted by his murder shortly afterwards. That simply could not be. It makes no sense if you go with a conventional idea of Jon and/or Dany ruling the Realm in the end as successful monarch(s).

But in light of the prophecy, the mission beyond the Wall, the (as of yet completely unknown) destiny of the promised prince it may make a lot of sense. The idea that being the promised prince/savior is going to mean that this person will survive to rule the realms of men, etc. was always founded on pretty much nothing but wishful thinking.

In this series the main characters will last until the finale but there quite a few of them will die. 

And Jon is the guy best suited for that thing. He swore a vow to pretty much give everything to save mankind. Why shouldn't he do that? What kind of story would that be if he George gave him some of fairy-tale ending with everything working out for him fine. That's not how he treats his characters. Just look at Tyrion, Brienne, Jaime, Theon, Bran, Arya, Catelyn, Cersei, etc. Remember how they look, how they were mutilated, injured, killed, think about the horrors they had to live through.

The stakes will only rise when the Others finally come, the characters will suffer even more, they will have to pay and give up even more to get what they want.

And we are expecting that Jon of all people - the one who is closest to the enemy and very likely to be play a huge role in the fight against them -is going to get out of his vows, gets the girl, and the throne? That is simply not very likely. It doesn't fit with the tone and the theme of the series at all.

I mean, people think I'm this kind of mad Dany fanatic (which is crap) but when thinking about her I really wonder what suffering George will have in for her. Is 'the fairest woman in the world' going to be horribly disfigured in some sort of assassination attempt or accident? How is George going to mutilate her? That she will have to pay for the things she is going to get is essentially a given. Those three treasons are treasons because she is going to be betrayed. And they should have some bad repercussions for her, too. Also for the traitors, of course.

Well, it can have effects for the dynasty if Dany and he have a miracle child. That should mean the Targaryen dynasty is properly restored and there is a future even when Daenerys dies in old age.

Jon was never set up as this guy who should be king. If that was the case he would have been Aegon or even Arya. Have him hidden somewhere where he could finally make a move, or have him travel around incognito getting to know people, making connections, acquiring skills, and then have him hatch from the dragon egg, so to speak, and make his claim known.

But with Jon's Wall-and-Others story that plot only works when you make the entire story about him. And if that was the point we wouldn't have a Daenerys in the story.

I'd have preferred Dany-Jon as some sort of Jaehaerys-Alysanne come again scenario at the end. Two people who love each other and learned how to rule and do now their best to better the lives of the their people and rebuild what was destroyed.

But if we are honest that prospect got very, very unlikely after Jon's death. People rooting for that - or the 'King Jon' ending - usually also feel the need to argue against the possibility that Jon died at all or that his resurrection is going to cost him all that much - and both was never very likely but gets less and less likely the more we learn from George.

If George wanted Jon to be some king in the end he would never have killed him. There is no point to this plot line unless it ties in to the Others plot. And at the end of that road was always certain doom. Even more so after it became clear that Jon is most likely going to be a dead man already when he fights the Others.

Bollocks.

Jon dies to get free of his vows. Thats its purpose. Till the day I die and all that. And Quorin's speech about the fate of humanity over honor is what makes him take that opening even if it looks like a less than honorable loophole, because the boy is dead and the man has been born.

As for his parentage not being important, well, George only calls it the central mystery of the entire series. You are fooling yourself, because you don't like this course of events. But the signs are clear. It is happening. Jon will be King.

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1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Bollocks.

Jon dies to get free of his vows. Thats its purpose. Till the day I die and all that. And Quorin's speech about the fate of humanity over honor is what makes him take that opening even if it looks like a less than honorable loophole, because the boy is dead and the man has been born.

LOL, why not just wait until the NW is disbanded because there is no longer a Wall nor any Others? That's likely going to be the outcome if they win, right? Why has Jon to die again?

And, quite frankly, what's preventing Jon from living and dying on his post a second time. And if never truly dies, if he lives on in Ghost, etc. then he was never truly dead, so he was never truly out of his vow, right? Not to mention that breaking the vow would basically mean to abandon his post and the mission. And that's not what his story is about.

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for his parentage not being important, well, George only calles it the centr mystery of the entire series. You are fooling yourself, because you don't like this course of events. But the signs are clear. It is happening. Jon will be King.

The central mystery of the series doesn't mean the answer is 'he will be king'. That's just stupid. Next you are going to say the answer to the mystery of the murder of Jon Arryn or the attempt on Bran, or any other mystery in the series means that this necessitates certain plot developments - like avenging the dead, righting the wrongs, etc. That may happen. But it might just not. Nobody has avenged Jon Arryn up to this point. And I doubt anybody will considering that Lysa died for a completely different reason already.

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, why not just wait until the NW is disbanded because there is no longer a Wall nor any Others? That's likely going to be the outcome if they win, right? Why has Jon to die again?

And, quite frankly, what's preventing Jon from living and dying on his post a second time. And if never truly dies, if he lives on in Ghost, etc. then he was never truly dead, so he was never truly out of his vow, right? Not to mention that breaking the vow would basically mean to abandon his post and the mission. And that's not what his story is about.

The central mystery of the series doesn't mean the answer is 'he will be king'. That's just stupid. Next you are going to say the answer to the mystery of the murder of Jon Arryn or the attempt on Bran, or any other mystery in the series means that this necessitates certain plot developments - like avenging the dead, righting the wrongs, etc. That may happen. But it might just not. Nobody has avenged Jon Arryn up to this point. And I doubt anybody will considering that Lysa died for a completely different reason already.

You mentioned earlier that George wont let the boy live, become king and get the girl. I agree.

It wil be bittersweet. He lives, but haunted and emotionally scarred by his experiences. He becomes king, but because he must, not because he wants it. And the girl dies.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany isn't a fighter. She doesn't have a sword. She is not going to fight the Dark Lord.

And she didn't die and wasn't sent back only for one purpose - to defeat Evil Incarnate.

That is Jon's purpose. And when it is over he can die.

He may very well be the promised prince, after all. Because, you know, the promised prince might be sacrificial lamb who is going to pay for the sins of humanity with his blood and life. We don't know what his purpose is or how he can fulfill his destiny. Jesus went up into heaven, too, you know. And Frodo and Gandalf left Middle-earth.

If Jon is the great hero there to save everyone he will die. Since that's clearly his role in the show, and most likely also his role in the books he will die.

IMHO Dany is the sword, she is Nissa Nissa from whom Jon will forge Lightbringer (Her? Drogon? Their son?). I can see Dany sacrificing herself for Jon, not the other way round. The betrayal for love has not happened yet, and I think it will involve Jon and Drogon somehow.

And the fact that Jon is brought back to life out of the blue is specific to the TV series IMO. In the books we have skinchanging, CB freezing cellars (with smoke and salt), Ghost etc.

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10 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

@Lord Varys--

Sorry, but I think @Free Northman Reborn has the better of the argument. Two basic points.

First, the only way to win the Game of Thrones is not to play the Game of Thrones. Dany has been playing the game in some for or other for a long time. Jon never will (but is most likely to win if anyone is going to win).

Second, as to Jon coming back as a "zombie" -- the show cut out what I suspect will be an important difference in the books -- Jon warging into Ghost before he dies. Due to that action, when Jon's body is resurrected, Jon can come back into his body from Ghost and not be a "zombie" but can be the "real" Jon (certainly changed by the experience but not having "lost a part of himself" as apparently happened with Baric and LS). The point of LS was to show that death cannot just be undone without a price (as a response to GRRM's frustration at the way that Gandolf was brought back to life in LotR). That point has already been made with LS -- Jon warging into Ghost allows his resurrection to be different.

:ninja:

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2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Bollocks.

Jon dies to get free of his vows. Thats its purpose. Till the day I die and all that. And Quorin's speech about the fate of humanity over honor is what makes him take that opening even if it looks like a less than honorable loophole, because the boy is dead and the man has been born.

As for his parentage not being important, well, George only calls it the central mystery of the entire series. You are fooling yourself, because you don't like this course of events. But the signs are clear. It is happening. Jon will be King. [is the rightful king]

:agree: almost entirely

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7 hours ago, Faint said:

It goes back to that scene with Aemon and the ever greater temptation. He is continually tempted to break his vows, each time greater than the last, and each time he will hold steadfast.

First it was to avenge his father and fight with Robb against the Lannisters. Next it was the offer to save Arya and have Winterfell for himself. Whereas the last, greatest temptation will be the throne and Daeneyers. 

I am also not very confident about Jon dying. I am much more certain about Daenerys' fate than his. 

What I cannot envision is him taking the throne. That is just so against his character. I find it far more likely that he goes and lives among the Wildings than that. Or even him becoming Coldhands 2.0 to Bran's Three-Eyed Crow 2.0. 

There is also this point that keeps being reinforced in the story that many seem to keep ignoring. Jon Snow has always been Jon Snow. While we know that he is, in fact, a Targaryen and Stark, he would never define himself that way because he was never brought up that way.

So what if there is a paper signed by Robb saying he is a Stark or a dusty scroll proving that he is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? He was never raised that way. That is not who he is. Someone coming up to him and telling him he is king does not change everything that came before. 

Besides, these kind of conventional fantasy storylines are anathema to Martin.  There are no simple solutions and rainbows at the end of his stories. 

The same, by the way, applies to Daenerys. She might get her Iron Throne and a child (both of which I am quite certain about), but the former will be to rule over a pile of ashes and the latter will kill her.

If there is one rule that looks unbreakable in Martin's universe, it's that his characters never get what they want. 

The apparent flaw in your argument is that Jon has already been tempted to leave the NW three times, and the third time he finally gave in. Firstly Robb in AGoT, secondly Stannis's offer in ASoS, thirdly Arya in ADwD. He has already broken his oath to the NW - to get assassinated the next moment. After a plot development like this, it doesn't make exactly much sense that he will remain at the Wall as a good little black brother as if nothing of importance had happened.

Anyway, the conversation with Aemon is clearly ironic, because Jon Snow there is still a naive teen that thinks that things are simple and clear and will always remain the same, while Maester Aemon who has seen over a hundred years knows better. As of ADwD, we know that Jon ultimately fails in his resolution to keep his vows.

That doesn't mean he has to become a king of any sort, but the NW would have little to do with that. He can still serve the Realm, but the NW is narratively out of play. What's the point of pursuing this narrative thread again after it finally reached its climax.

The NW was the matter of Jon's first life. His second and third life will be quite different.

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3 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

IMHO Dany is the sword, she is Nissa Nissa from whom Jon will forge Lightbringer (Her? Drogon? Their son?). I can see Dany sacrificing herself for Jon, not the other way round. The betrayal for love has not happened yet, and I think it will involve Jon and Drogon somehow.

And the fact that Jon is brought back to life out of the blue is specific to the TV series IMO. In the books we have skinchanging, CB freezing cellars (with smoke and salt), Ghost etc.

Of course. A leading female character will die so the leading male character can get a fancy sword. What's a female but a prop for her man? She's an object, he's a subject, right? Heh. And of course the male character has to take possession all her 'cool' things as well such like the biggest and most iconic dragon.

Btw, if Dany sacrificed herself, then it would not be a betrayal. Just sayin'.

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11 hours ago, Newstar said:

You mean Aemon's speech to Jon about needing to choose between duty and family? Do you mean that he'll be forced to abandon his romance with Dany to fight the Others and will die in the attempt, or something else?

I have two big problems with what I see Jon's two possible endgames at this point:

1. If he's destined to die heroically fighting the WWs...why make such a big deal out of his parentage and legitimacy?

2. If he's destined to become endgame king and reign for the next 40 years or whatever...why kill him off and resurrect him in a way that (in the books at least) will make him effectively a zombie?

I can't get around either, and GRRM's recent "fire wight" comments about Beric--which he said were intended as foreshadowing for Jon--also point away from a King Jon endgame to me. ASOIAF gets plenty weird, but not so weird as to have the endgame sits-the-throne-for-the-next-several-decades king be a zombie for all intents and purposes. On the other hand, who cares whether Jon is legitimate or not if he's just going to die again anyway?

Well, his parentage would be a big deal for him, for Dany, probably for the Stark children. He grew up as a Stark bastard, the realization that he may be a prince in theory should rock his world, his self-image, his opinion on Ned, etc. OTOH I doubt that in the books it will be all that clearcut that he is legitimate. Rhaegar Targaryen already had a wife and polygany had fallen into disuse ages ago (and the annulment BS is impossible in the books). The only one that has allegedly attempted to revive the custom was Daemon Blackfyre, so he could get married to Rohanne of Tyrosh and Daenerys both, which kinda says it all. Jon's claim to legitimacy would be... highly controversial, to say the least. That doesn't mean that Dany won't regard him as a Targaryen all the same, because she doesn't want to be the last one.

Other than that, mayhaps D&D thought that having Jon to be revealed to be a bastard of another family would not be a big enough shocker? I mean, I've had plenty of discussions in which people have asked me what's the point of Jon's secret parentage if he's still a bastard. Might be that D&D found the revelation that Jon's legitimacy should be still doubtful similarly underwhelming.

On the whole, I agree with you on the wight Jon point. I believe that he will be somewhat different from Beric, but the core of what GRRM says about the undead makes it clear that there is no true coming back from death for anybody. Having Jon return as for most part the same guy would entirely defeat what he has tried to do with Beric - and his point regarding Tolkien and Gandalf the White.

Reading through fan discussions, I have usually come across idea that Jon will return more savage, his death will be a convenient loophole to get him from his vows, etc. He's supposed to be the same old Jon, but cooler, and he's supposed to get out of his vows without any moral dilemma... which is just totally missing the heart of GRRM's writing.

If our traumatized wolfman wight survives it's imho far more likely that he will hole up in a place like the Nightfort, not wanting to have anything to do with the living, rather than live among crowds in some capital to care for mundane matters of ruling. After all, he wouldn't be the first melancholic Targaryen to react that way, would he? Aegon I was a mostly absentee king that isolated himself on Dragonstone and left the actual job of ruling to his sisters. Aegon III dealt with his childhood trauma by staying in his rooms and not speaking to other people for days. Jon's own bilogical father's favorite pastime was to spend days by squatting at Summerhal not taking much notice of his father's madness etc.

Btw, that Jon pets Drogon doesn't mean that he's supposed to be his new master. I mean, if Dany pets Ghost next season, would you take from it that Jon dies and Dany inherits his wolf? Drogon is Dany's spirit animal. He accepts Jon, because Dany's in love with him, although it's a new feeling that she's struggling with.

It's true that it shouldn't work that way in the books, but show dragons are different from book dragons. For one, Rhaegal and Viserion seem to follow Dany and Drogon without any trouble to the extent that no other dragonriders are really needed. Also, didn't someone on the show say at one point that their dragons are supposed to cleverer than humans? That's not a thing in the books either.

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14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:
  14 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

First, the only way to win the Game of Thrones is not to play the Game of Thrones. Dany has been playing the game in some for or other for a long time. Jon never will (but is most likely to win if anyone is going to win).

Sorry, that has nothing to do with anything. If Jon fights the Others he can die in that battle, and it is very likely that he will if he is responsible for their ultimate defeat. This has nothing to do with the game of thrones - a game Jon most definitely will play if declares himself king or enters into a marriage alliance with Daenerys Targaryen. He may play very badly but he will play.

And he already plays in the books, especially in ADwD. And he is going to get better in TWoW. After all, he won't be stabbed to death by his own men a second time. Hopefully.

Let me clarify what I meant -- as you seemed to think this statement "has nothing to do with anything." What I was getting at is the style that GRRM has used in writing this series and statements he has said about the Game of Thrones.  Dany is playing the "Game" as she is trying to become Queen of Westeros. I don't know if Jon becomes KitN in the books -- but even if he does, it won't be because he asks for the job and he is not trying to become King of Westeros.

I have a hard time believing that Dany can be Queen at the end simply because she has been trying to become Queen for most of the series. GRRM tends not to give people what they have been trying to get for so long. Jon, on the other hand, never wanted to be King and will never ask to be King. For that reason -- he would make the better King (in GRRM's eyes) and if anyone is King (or Queen) of Westeros at the end (not 100% sure anyone will) -- Jon is the only plausible candidate.

And as a side note, if such an eventuality occurs, then as others have noted, his "hidden heritage" is central to that resolution. Sure, being a hidden Targ is centrally important because it allows him to be one of the three Heads of the Dragon and the PtwP -- so he can "save the world." But his status as the legitimate heir and only surviving child of the late Crown Prince is likely to be included not just for the purposes of a "clever reveal" to the readers (and viewers).

Admittedly, Dany has a competing claim to the throne -- and being allies at that point (as I assume they must be by then in the books -- as they are rapidly becoming on the show), I doubt Jon will directly challenge her claim (as she wants it so much more). But if she dies (as I suspect she will) during the "big battle" -- then Jon will be the only one left to lead Westeros from the devastation of the War (with his Uncle Tyrion as his Hand, I suspect).

All the foreshadowing is there -- all of the clues are there -- I really am surprised that your analysis of the evidence leads you to such a different conclusion.

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7 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You mentioned earlier that George wont let the boy live, become king and get the girl. I agree.

It wil be bittersweet. He lives, but haunted and emotionally scarred by his experiences. He becomes king, but because he must, not because he wants it. And the girl dies.

The girl is the main character here, too. She won't die. Jon will die. He won't get her in the end. And certainly not the throne. I mean, if he is zombie is not exactly all that likely to be able to continue the line. He would be as good royal material as a barren Daenerys. They might be able to produce some miracle child together but Jon isn't going to be a single zombie dad who is going to raise it. That doesn't make any sense.

He is the one who fights the Others, and he will die in that fight. And no - he doesn't even have to be king to do that. He could still do that as a leader and general who might become king after his return. But he'll die in battle/during the mission.

5 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

IMHO Dany is the sword, she is Nissa Nissa from whom Jon will forge Lightbringer (Her? Drogon? Their son?). I can see Dany sacrificing herself for Jon, not the other way round. The betrayal for love has not happened yet, and I think it will involve Jon and Drogon somehow.

Even if that was true - which it isn't, you are way too obsessed with thinking about unnecessary sacrifices and weirdo symbolism and parallels that have long become true (Nissa Nissa isn't a main character in this story - nobody who is a main character is going to end up as another character's Nissa Nissa) - that would still mean Jon is going to die, too, in the final battle. Because that's what's going to take to defeat the Others. You don't defeat them with some sacrifices and rituals preparing you for the final battle.

Theories like that never actually reach the point of the final confrontation. But there will be a fight. And there will be a price for victory. And that price is not that the principal hero and fighter will live.

If Dany wasa sacrifice she would never even fight in the final battle. She isn't a warrior. And, quite frankly, as things stand anybody killing or sacrificing Daenerys would quickly be put down by her zealous followers. Daenerys is not Shireen.

5 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

And the fact that Jon is brought back to life out of the blue is specific to the TV series IMO. In the books we have skinchanging, CB freezing cellars (with smoke and salt), Ghost etc.

So what? That's not going to give Jon the life of a normal human being back after his return. He will be a twisted person owing his life to magic. And his body is most likely going to be unnatural in one way or another. Thinking the man is going to live a long and happy life after that is as likely as that Beric Dondarrion would have ever returned to Blackhaven and married that Dayne girl whose name he had already forgotten. Even if they had won that would have been impossible. The same with Catelyn living out the remainder of her life in normalcy after she has put down all her enemies.

Even if Jon did survive all the ordeals he is going to go through - which he most likely isn't going to - he would realize that he is a freak and an abomination and would either kill himself or leave. Even more so if he loses even more of his humanity along the way. I mean, the idea that his death and resurrection is the endpoint of his suffering or the highest personal price he has to pay isn't all that likely. The Others aren't even there yet. He might be forced to do things that make it impossible for him to live with himself once he has time to reflect on that.

Especially if he really had to kill Dany or if she sacrificed herself for him. Then he would want to die, too, no? Just as Stannis is likely to quickly follow Shireen into the grave - not just because all hope is lost but because he processes what he has done and that he cannot live on after that.

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Let me clarify what I meant -- as you seemed to think this statement "has nothing to do with anything." What I was getting at is the style that GRRM has used in writing this series and statements he has said about the Game of Thrones.  Dany is playing the "Game" as she is trying to become Queen of Westeros. I don't know if Jon becomes KitN in the books -- but even if he does, it won't be because he asks for the job and he is not trying to become King of Westeros.

Dany has yet to try to be queen of Westeros. And if the show is playing it right she seems not likely to sit the Iron Throne prior to the defeat of the Others considering that they are going to establish a truce with Cersei and then focus on the Others before they continue the squabbling.

The idea that Dany will be more absorbed by the game than Jon by the time they meet is very unlikely. Jon Snow is already more involved in the game of thrones than Daenerys. She refused to go to Westeros back in ADwD, if you recall.

And nobody becomes king against his will. If he doesn't want to be king he won't be king. It is that easy.

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I have a hard time believing that Dany can be Queen at the end simply because she has been trying to become Queen for most of the series. GRRM tends not to give people what they have been trying to get for so long. Jon, on the other hand, never wanted to be King and will never ask to be King. For that reason -- he would make the better King (in GRRM's eyes) and if anyone is King (or Queen) of Westeros at the end (not 100% sure anyone will) -- Jon is the only plausible candidate.

That is non-argument. Dany doesn't want to be a queen - she is a queen. From the moment Viserys dies. And her main goal is to survive and care for her people, not conquer her father's old kingdom. That's not exactly at the top of her priority list.

What Dany truly wants is to return to her house in Braavos. She doesn't want a throne she never saw deep down in her heart, nor has she worked her entire life to gain that throne. She took up Viserys' torch explicitly because there was no other Targaryen left. If she had had another brother or nephew she knew of she would have been content with being Drogo's wife and giving the responsibility to avenge the family honor and name to that guy.

But Jon really has this deep desire to be more than he is. He played at being the Young Dragon and one of the other legendary heroes. He always wanted to be more than just a bastard. And he surely played at being king

His true and final temptation could very well be to choose between his true mission - to give his life to save mankind and defeat the Others - and to pursue a campaign for the Iron Throne after he realizes that he was cheated out of his legacy and branded a bastard by his mother's brother. That is going to hurt more than anything else, especially when he processes how different his life could have been had he been raised a prince (assuming there hadn't been any rebellion or his father had won at the Trident).

The idea that 'being king' and 'defeating the Others' are concepts that can go hand in hand in Jon's case are not very likely. Especially after his death. Prior to that I, too, said that it is quite likely that Dany and Jon will get together and one of them is going to die. The one who truly has to fulfill the promised prince thing. But even then the chances were much higher that Jon would be the guy because he is the fighter. He is the one who is going to be in danger to be killed by the wights and Others. Dany is going to command from the rear or on dragonback. And the Others can't fly nor is there any hint that they will have scorpions or even bows.

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

And as a side note, if such an eventuality occurs, then as others have noted, his "hidden heritage" is central to that resolution. Sure, being a hidden Targ is centrally important because it allows him to be one of the three Heads of the Dragon and the PtwP -- so he can "save the world." But his status as the legitimate heir and only surviving child of the late Crown Prince is likely to be included not just for the purposes of a "clever reveal" to the readers (and viewers).

What makes you think that? Do you think George actually cares so much about primogeniture and that the rightful king be the guy who is at the correct place in some garbled line of succession? He is not as vapid as that. He shows this perfectly with Renly and Stannis. Stannis has the better claim but would make a shitty king whereas Renly would make a much better king. The same with Joffrey and Tommen - Joff is a monster and Tommen is not. Yet Joffrey is the elder and therefore 'the rightful king' within the Baratheon framework if we accept him as Robert's son.

Jon certainly could become king if he lived through all that. But why should he? What's the point in having an ultimate supernatural threat if dealing with that is going to be essentially easier and less costly than playing that stupid game of thrones? The latter cost the Starks and everybody else rather dearly already, so the final confrontation will cost them, too.

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Admittedly, Dany has a competing claim to the throne -- and being allies at that point (as I assume they must be by then in the books -- as they are rapidly becoming on the show), I doubt Jon will directly challenge her claim (as she wants it so much more). But if she dies (as I suspect she will) during the "big battle" -- then Jon will be the only one left to lead Westeros from the devastation of the War (with his Uncle Tyrion as his Hand, I suspect).

I thought that, too - but then Jon died. He is not going to be the same. He might be much more than he was during his mortal/normal life but he will then burn much brighter and go out earlier than he would be as a normal person. The challenges he is going to face are not some things normal people can go through and live.

We have no idea what it means to be the promised prince. But whatever that is - it was always clear that dirty and gritty aspect of the fight against the Others wouldn't be done by Daenerys, never mind that she fulfilled all the preliminary parts of the prophecy - waking dragons from stone, being born on Dragonstone, etc. There is no talk about Azor Ahai's retirement or the Last Hero's deeds after the War for the Dawn, is there?

In fact, I'm even inclined to believe that Dany and Jon might both have to pay the ultimate price. From the show point of view that's rather difficult, though, because that would mean there won't be a clear ruler afterwards. In the books such an ending might work. But I'm not sure they will differ that much in the basics. But you never know at this point.

It might even be that show allows both of them to live. They are so soft on the characters. But if we go with the idea that one of them has to die it is the dead man walking not the woman who isn't dead yet. If Dany is killed and resurrected, too, I'm going to insist that she cannot survive the series, too. But that hasn't happened yet

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

All the foreshadowing is there -- all of the clues are there -- I really am surprised that your analysis of the evidence leads you to such a different conclusion.

What are you talking about? There is no clear foreshadowing about the ultimate end of the series? All hints about Jon being Rhaegar's son, etc. could come true before his eventual and final death. If he ends up being king consort or co-ruler at Dany's side for so much as a day or an hour he'll fulfill all that.

The idea that those hints mean he'll survive everything and sit on the throne when everything is over is just speculation and wishful thinking.

And, you know, Dany has that dream about being Rhaegar and crushing her enemies armored in ice at the Trident. That is a strong hint that she'll live through the final battle against the Others. No guarantee that she'll survive the series but much more in that regard than Jon ever got.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And, you know, Dany has that dream about being Rhaegar and crushing her enemies armored in ice at the Trident. That is a strong hint that she'll live through the final battle against the Others. 

How so? Rhaegar died at the Trident. If anything, it foreshadows her doom.

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LOL

They are both going to live guys! Almost everyone else will die, it's the fandom price for these 2 living. 

On 8/11/2017 at 5:10 PM, lojzelote said:

Eh, I doubt GRRM gave D&D anything more than vague directions like "Sansa will eventually realize the full extent of LF's treachery and have him killed".

For that matter, I find it hard to believe that Arya would indeed kill Cersei. I mean, for all that she's on Arya's list, Cersei doesn't really have a personal significance to Arya's story and character development. As opposed to that, Tyrion's, Jaime's, or Sansa's characters have been shaped by their interactions with Cersei (not that I believe that Sansa is the valoquar). Arya killing Cersei would be hugely dramatically unsatisfying. We've seen enough of Arya's killfest, so it would be great to let some other characters kill as well.

D&D can be n00bs, but even they should realize that Jaime strangling Cersei should become a much more iconic scene than Arya using her hyperassassin skills yet again on a woman she has never even talked to onscreen before.

She is on Arya's list for killing Ned and Lady/estranging Nymeria.  That was the only time they talked books and show (IIRC) was Arya yelling at her not to kill Lady.

22 hours ago, Newstar said:

Jon having a Moment with Drogon and not Rhaegal was very interesting. It also seems like confirmation of Dany's death if the show sticks to the book rules of "one dragon, one rider" (as long as the rider lives), doesn't it? If Jon is going to ride Drogon, he can't do so until Dany dies (at least by book rules, the TV writers can do whatever they want).

I thought that the way that Jon's interaction with Drogon in 7x05 and Tyrion's interaction with Rhaegal in 6x02 were framed was very similar. Does that plus Jon and Drogon having a moment mean that Tyrion will get Rhaegal, or that Rhaegal will die before Rhaegal gets a rider?

 

I seriously believe that Drogon being the only focused on Dragon right now is due to CGI budget.  It would cost a lot more to get super detailed on 2 Dragons instead of just Drogon right now when it is not super needed.  \They will give close-ups of Viserion in next few episodes then Rhaegal next season when Jon bonds with him.

18 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just on Cersei. I still don't understand why she is ruling in the Show. So it clearly is not linked to her relation to the Baratheons, because they are all dead and she has no relation to them. So it must be because the Lannisters won the Throne through sheer power. But in that case, why is Jaime not King instead of her being Queen? Is he still a Kingsguard? If they are willing to ignore Cersei destroying the Great Sept and High Septon, after all, why should anyone care about a little detail like the eldest son of Casterly Rock being a Kingsguard?

Surely if Jaime just declared himself King he would be the rightful ruler, going by the weird logic of the Show. Cersei is kind of just sticking around like a bad rash, without any reason for her still being there.

^^^ This so much.

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12 minutes ago, Newstar said:

How so? Rhaegar died at the Trident. If anything, it foreshadows her doom.

How so? She sees herself as a winning and triumphing Rhaegar, not a Rhaegar who is defeated or a Rhaegar who wins the battle but gets beaten into the river by some ice dude with a sledgehammer while only his men triumph.

Rhaegar lost and Daenerys will win. The allusion to Rhaegar is doubly interesting here since Rhaegar both falsely thought he (and his son) was the promised prince and that he would triumph over cousin Robert. He was wrong on both accounts.

I still wouldn't take this as evidence that Dany is going to survive the series. She could still die after the final battle. But I'm pretty sure that this means she is going to survive her part in that battle. The Others not that likely to bring down a dragonrider. In fact, in the books they should be ill-equipped to carry the fight to them considering that they seem to be completely earthbound there - bird wights have yet to show up, and I think there is a reason why we don't see any raven or crow wights. They wouldn't be able to fly and are thus pretty much useless.

At best I could see the weather conditions - snow storms and the like - make things difficult for the dragonriders.

If you have any textual evidence for any hints putting Jon into a similar position indicating his ultimate triumph I'd gladly hear about them.

But as far as I know there are no such hints to be found. The best hint for Jon eventually becoming some sort of war leader is the dream he has before letting the wildlings through the Wall, but that one is at best foreshadowing for him becoming a war leader (against the Others). Not foreshadowing for him to defeat them nor for him surviving the final battle.

George would actually be pretty stupid to actually put hints as spoilery as to who is going to be king in the end into the story. I mean, why continue reading if you know the end?

Yes, the journey is also interesting, but the way George presents things the foreshadowing is usually so vague that it refers to particular situations and events, not the outcome of the an entire plot line or the entire story.

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