Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

23 posts in this topic

15 hours ago, Newstar said:

Sure, why not? Jon marries Dany, Tyrion is their Hand. Tyrion is already Dany's Hand, and he has always liked and respected Jon. Jon and Dany have a lot in common. They should get along just fine. There are all kinds of parallels between the three characters in the books. Jon, Dany, and Tyrion ending up as endgame king, endgame queen, and endgame hand would have a nice symmetry to it.

This ending is simple, sure, but maybe in the twenty years we've had to bat around theories, we've been overthinking the ending that's been staring us in the face the whole time. GRRM admitted that fans guessed the books' ending a long time ago. The show confirmed a number of other theories that were once scorned as being "too obvious," after all: R+L=J, the Hound being the gravedigger, etc.

There are parallels but that doesn't mean it should end this way or will.

Put it this way, Would it people consider it easy because I know a lot of would and in fact I've seen debates of happy endings sort of way. If Jon and Dany do have a kid, why do we need both of them or George for that matter? Isn't this the reason exactly for it to be the case, if they have a child... so the child can continue the legacy. If this is to happen, then why do we need a child for them?

GRRM admitted fans have guessed some theories and events that will take place, not the ending itself. Maybe, Im wrong and you can correct me with some of his interview but didbn't he only mentioned Lotr style of ending. Besides there are various versions of ending from tons of people. Really don't know how would that be feasible and realistic to fans to end Jon and Dany with a kid, Tyrion as a Hand. Maybe we're too pessimistic but that's the way this story has been going, there is always tragedy waiting around the corner and price to pay for happiness.

Overthinking the ending? GRRM is inspired to some extent by War of Roses and various events from history but when it comes to WoR, not like he'll do exactly same ending. I can't place Jon with anyone in that era, but then I can't strictly put GoT characters like 1-1 to any people from WoR.  They doshare similarities, some more and some less Robb (Edward IV younger ) ,Stannis (Richard III), Robert (Edward IV older), Daenerys (Henry Tudor) but also Aegon can if it. If Jon is who spoilers he is, then it might add to another theories more than Jon and Dany. Jon is a cross between few characters Frodo, Aragorn ,Gandalf elements from LOTR, Henry Tudor, something from Elizabeth. Elizabeth of York is hardly inspiration for Jon besides being a bastard and claim, later on marrying Henry. gender wise, history and characteristics seems more fit to Sansa but also Anne Nevill. I've seen quite a few essays on this how her life echoes that of Sansa to some extent. We had a a debate on this, didn't we?

 

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I looked up a quote of GRRM's where he explained what he meant by a "bittersweet" ending. He said that he was going for the same tone as the end of LOTR. Specifically, when describing that ending, he said that Frodo lives but is never really whole again, and that people move on with their lives. Also, at the end of LOTR, none of the main (non-villainous) characters died. A number of them ended up happily married, in fact. The "Jon" of LOTR, Aragorn, married Arwen, had a prosperous and successful reign, and a long and happy marriage. GRRM made his hero a thinly-disguised Aragorn. He may well give him Aragorn's ending.

The bittersweet element GRRM seems to be hinting at isn't from death, it's from characters being traumatized as Frodo was traumatized, and characters getting on with their lives and doing their own thing. If that's the tone GRRM is going for, we're not going to see any of the major characters like Jon, Dany, or Tyrion die. 

Jon and Dany are far from Aragorn and Arwen, in fact tone is a different description than just replicating it. Then wat's the point of it? GRRM has to distance himself a bit and while respecting his inspiration, giving his own spin on it. Bran or Jon could literaly fit Frodo's ending but will he do it? He might have already done that with Jon. Daenerys is often compard to Aragorn, not Jon. Who has some similarities which are rather too obvious.

George's endings in previous books were dark, gloomy and twisted if I can use this word. So going by that it might lean into it but not too much. Elves basically died or left the Middle Earth, Frodo too. Sam and Gimli followed them. Can't see GoT known for basically killing characters for the sake of it can do it without any significant big time characters death and by that means top 5 or 6. Some dying and some living with the notion what it cost them to achieve this. 

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4 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

GRRM admitted fans have guessed some theories and events that will take place, not the ending itself. Maybe, Im wrong and you can correct me with some of his interview but didbn't he only mentioned Lotr style of ending.

He was talking about Internet message boards and how they'd already guessed the ending, but that he was going to stick with the plan regardless (or words to that effect).

 

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Maybe we're too pessimistic but that's the way this story has been going, there is always tragedy waiting around the corner and price to pay for happiness.

Well, sure, but that price according to GRRM's understanding of "bittersweet" will involve psychological trauma of the kind Frodo endured, not death.

 

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Overthinking the ending? GRRM is inspired to some extent by War of Roses and various events from history but when it comes to WoR, not like he'll do exactly same ending.

Except that's exactly what he did with the DOTD, and we know he once intended ASOIAF to be a much more straightforward retelling of the WOTR.

 

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George's endings in previous books were dark, gloomy and twisted if I can use this word.

Maybe, but we know Dunk and Egg wind up as kingsguard and king, and that Egg marries for love and has a relatively decent, long rule (26 years). It all goes to shit much later (Summerhall), but as far as we know they have many happy years before that happens. We know that eventually Egg gets the throne and he's able to marry the person he loves and reign for many years. Why not Dany?

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On 20. 5. 2017 at 9:20 AM, Shmedricko said:
  • In S1E7, Benjen's horse returns to Castle Black without him. Jon asks, "Where's my uncle?" The scene then immediately cuts to Renly shouting, "Ned!" -- an early possible hint of Ned's true relationship to Jon.

That could be funny easter egg, just like letters R+L being carved into the wood just behind Jon in his scene with Sam and Thorne.
 

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  • In S1E2, Daenerys looks at her three dragon eggs, which are surrounded by candles. The scene then cuts to more flames, and pans up to reveal Jon Snow, perhaps hinting that he too is a dragon waiting to hatch.

This seems to me as pure coincidence.

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  • Later in this scene, Tyrion says, "Life is full of these little ironies. My sister married the new king, and my repulsive nephew will be king after him." Tyrion then shoots a glance at Jon, the camera cuts to him, and there's a slight pause. If A+J=T, Jon is also Tyrion's nephew, and he may just become king as well.
  • In S1E3, Jeor tells Tyrion, "Your sister sits by the side of the king. Tell her we need help." If A+J=T, Tyrion has another sister (Daenerys) who sat by the side of a different king (Viserys) who can help against the coming winter with her dragons. In fact, the dragon eggs and Daenerys are in the next scene.

We also had a scene with Margaery talking about King and then it cuts to Jon.

 We can go on and on to see if there is something to it but Tyrion is very unlikely to be a Targ. He won't ride a dragon and as for throne, we have Jon and Dany for it with a far better chances.

 

On 20. 5. 2017 at 4:04 PM, Newstar said:

He was talking about Internet message boards and how they'd already guessed the ending, but that he was going to stick with the plan regardless (or words to that effect).

I do remember him talking about theories and Jon's parentage in this regard but no the ending. Only thing he said was bittersweet ending. If he did said something about it and you're right, then you know how many theories are there for the ending for this saga? So many of these.

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Well, sure, but that price according to GRRM's understanding of "bittersweet" will involve psychological trauma of the kind Frodo endured, not death.

Not only psychological, in the world were death follows our characters around. There will be inevitably death and psychological suffring. It's not mutually exclusive.

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Except that's exactly what he did with the DOTD, and we know he once intended ASOIAF to be a much more straightforward retelling of the WOTR.

I'd like to see some quotes on this. He might've  once intended but that was possibly back in the days of original outline, because just retelling WOTR is poor thing in my opinion, and in fact if does that ... the ending is not Jon and Dany on the iron throne. It's a bit more complicated than that, because neither of them strictly fits into one specific character from that era. Especially Jon Snow. Go and look up on some essays or videos on them and in neither of them people said Jon and Dany are Henry and Elizabeth.

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Maybe, but we know Dunk and Egg wind up as kingsguard and king, and that Egg marries for love and has a relatively decent, long rule (26 years). It all goes to shit much later (Summerhall), but as far as we know they have many happy years before that happens. We know that eventually Egg gets the throne and he's able to marry the person he loves and reign for many years. Why not Dany?

Because it's a different story. This goes back to my argument then why it can't be like his father and mother? It's the same point which challenges your point of it being foregone conclusion of them on the iron throne. It can go different ways but given George wants to respect hisory, his work but also don't think he just wants to reacreate it. Yes, Egg ruled and was happy but was not facing the white walkers, and Rhaegar as far as I now, did loved Lyanna ... and how that ended up for them? Given the structure of the story and how it goes.

I have my doubts Jon and Dany on the iron throne, with baby, Tyrion as a Hand. That gives as far as I know impression of being a bit too sweet. Not my opinion but people's. I can sort of seeing where they're coming from. It will be come too smooth and there is always price to pay. At least that's what I've learned but do I expect a massacre? No, but also not for it to be that good.

I can see Dany saving the world, ruling but losing Jon or vice versa. Jon being miserable and saving the world. There probably will be a balance in the ending that will make it bittersweet.

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