Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

88 posts in this topic

15 hours ago, Newstar said:

Sure, why not? Jon marries Dany, Tyrion is their Hand. Tyrion is already Dany's Hand, and he has always liked and respected Jon. Jon and Dany have a lot in common. They should get along just fine. There are all kinds of parallels between the three characters in the books. Jon, Dany, and Tyrion ending up as endgame king, endgame queen, and endgame hand would have a nice symmetry to it.

This ending is simple, sure, but maybe in the twenty years we've had to bat around theories, we've been overthinking the ending that's been staring us in the face the whole time. GRRM admitted that fans guessed the books' ending a long time ago. The show confirmed a number of other theories that were once scorned as being "too obvious," after all: R+L=J, the Hound being the gravedigger, etc.

There are parallels but that doesn't mean it should end this way or will.

Put it this way, Would it people consider it easy because I know a lot of would and in fact I've seen debates of happy endings sort of way. If Jon and Dany do have a kid, why do we need both of them or George for that matter? Isn't this the reason exactly for it to be the case, if they have a child... so the child can continue the legacy. If this is to happen, then why do we need a child for them?

GRRM admitted fans have guessed some theories and events that will take place, not the ending itself. Maybe, Im wrong and you can correct me with some of his interview but didbn't he only mentioned Lotr style of ending. Besides there are various versions of ending from tons of people. Really don't know how would that be feasible and realistic to fans to end Jon and Dany with a kid, Tyrion as a Hand. Maybe we're too pessimistic but that's the way this story has been going, there is always tragedy waiting around the corner and price to pay for happiness.

Overthinking the ending? GRRM is inspired to some extent by War of Roses and various events from history but when it comes to WoR, not like he'll do exactly same ending. I can't place Jon with anyone in that era, but then I can't strictly put GoT characters like 1-1 to any people from WoR.  They doshare similarities, some more and some less Robb (Edward IV younger ) ,Stannis (Richard III), Robert (Edward IV older), Daenerys (Henry Tudor) but also Aegon can if it. If Jon is who spoilers he is, then it might add to another theories more than Jon and Dany. Jon is a cross between few characters Frodo, Aragorn ,Gandalf elements from LOTR, Henry Tudor, something from Elizabeth. Elizabeth of York is hardly inspiration for Jon besides being a bastard and claim, later on marrying Henry. gender wise, history and characteristics seems more fit to Sansa but also Anne Nevill. I've seen quite a few essays on this how her life echoes that of Sansa to some extent. We had a a debate on this, didn't we?

 

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I looked up a quote of GRRM's where he explained what he meant by a "bittersweet" ending. He said that he was going for the same tone as the end of LOTR. Specifically, when describing that ending, he said that Frodo lives but is never really whole again, and that people move on with their lives. Also, at the end of LOTR, none of the main (non-villainous) characters died. A number of them ended up happily married, in fact. The "Jon" of LOTR, Aragorn, married Arwen, had a prosperous and successful reign, and a long and happy marriage. GRRM made his hero a thinly-disguised Aragorn. He may well give him Aragorn's ending.

The bittersweet element GRRM seems to be hinting at isn't from death, it's from characters being traumatized as Frodo was traumatized, and characters getting on with their lives and doing their own thing. If that's the tone GRRM is going for, we're not going to see any of the major characters like Jon, Dany, or Tyrion die. 

Jon and Dany are far from Aragorn and Arwen, in fact tone is a different description than just replicating it. Then wat's the point of it? GRRM has to distance himself a bit and while respecting his inspiration, giving his own spin on it. Bran or Jon could literaly fit Frodo's ending but will he do it? He might have already done that with Jon. Daenerys is often compard to Aragorn, not Jon. Who has some similarities which are rather too obvious.

George's endings in previous books were dark, gloomy and twisted if I can use this word. So going by that it might lean into it but not too much. Elves basically died or left the Middle Earth, Frodo too. Sam and Gimli followed them. Can't see GoT known for basically killing characters for the sake of it can do it without any significant big time characters death and by that means top 5 or 6. Some dying and some living with the notion what it cost them to achieve this. 

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4 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

GRRM admitted fans have guessed some theories and events that will take place, not the ending itself. Maybe, Im wrong and you can correct me with some of his interview but didbn't he only mentioned Lotr style of ending.

He was talking about Internet message boards and how they'd already guessed the ending, but that he was going to stick with the plan regardless (or words to that effect).

 

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Maybe we're too pessimistic but that's the way this story has been going, there is always tragedy waiting around the corner and price to pay for happiness.

Well, sure, but that price according to GRRM's understanding of "bittersweet" will involve psychological trauma of the kind Frodo endured, not death.

 

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Overthinking the ending? GRRM is inspired to some extent by War of Roses and various events from history but when it comes to WoR, not like he'll do exactly same ending.

Except that's exactly what he did with the DOTD, and we know he once intended ASOIAF to be a much more straightforward retelling of the WOTR.

 

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George's endings in previous books were dark, gloomy and twisted if I can use this word.

Maybe, but we know Dunk and Egg wind up as kingsguard and king, and that Egg marries for love and has a relatively decent, long rule (26 years). It all goes to shit much later (Summerhall), but as far as we know they have many happy years before that happens. We know that eventually Egg gets the throne and he's able to marry the person he loves and reign for many years. Why not Dany?

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On 20. 5. 2017 at 9:20 AM, Shmedricko said:
  • In S1E7, Benjen's horse returns to Castle Black without him. Jon asks, "Where's my uncle?" The scene then immediately cuts to Renly shouting, "Ned!" -- an early possible hint of Ned's true relationship to Jon.

That could be funny easter egg, just like letters R+L being carved into the wood just behind Jon in his scene with Sam and Thorne.
 

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  • In S1E2, Daenerys looks at her three dragon eggs, which are surrounded by candles. The scene then cuts to more flames, and pans up to reveal Jon Snow, perhaps hinting that he too is a dragon waiting to hatch.

This seems to me as pure coincidence.

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  • Later in this scene, Tyrion says, "Life is full of these little ironies. My sister married the new king, and my repulsive nephew will be king after him." Tyrion then shoots a glance at Jon, the camera cuts to him, and there's a slight pause. If A+J=T, Jon is also Tyrion's nephew, and he may just become king as well.
  • In S1E3, Jeor tells Tyrion, "Your sister sits by the side of the king. Tell her we need help." If A+J=T, Tyrion has another sister (Daenerys) who sat by the side of a different king (Viserys) who can help against the coming winter with her dragons. In fact, the dragon eggs and Daenerys are in the next scene.

We also had a scene with Margaery talking about King and then it cuts to Jon.

 We can go on and on to see if there is something to it but Tyrion is very unlikely to be a Targ. He won't ride a dragon and as for throne, we have Jon and Dany for it with a far better chances.

 

On 20. 5. 2017 at 4:04 PM, Newstar said:

He was talking about Internet message boards and how they'd already guessed the ending, but that he was going to stick with the plan regardless (or words to that effect).

I do remember him talking about theories and Jon's parentage in this regard but no the ending. Only thing he said was bittersweet ending. If he did said something about it and you're right, then you know how many theories are there for the ending for this saga? So many of these.

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Well, sure, but that price according to GRRM's understanding of "bittersweet" will involve psychological trauma of the kind Frodo endured, not death.

Not only psychological, in the world were death follows our characters around. There will be inevitably death and psychological suffring. It's not mutually exclusive.

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Except that's exactly what he did with the DOTD, and we know he once intended ASOIAF to be a much more straightforward retelling of the WOTR.

I'd like to see some quotes on this. He might've  once intended but that was possibly back in the days of original outline, because just retelling WOTR is poor thing in my opinion, and in fact if does that ... the ending is not Jon and Dany on the iron throne. It's a bit more complicated than that, because neither of them strictly fits into one specific character from that era. Especially Jon Snow. Go and look up on some essays or videos on them and in neither of them people said Jon and Dany are Henry and Elizabeth.

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Maybe, but we know Dunk and Egg wind up as kingsguard and king, and that Egg marries for love and has a relatively decent, long rule (26 years). It all goes to shit much later (Summerhall), but as far as we know they have many happy years before that happens. We know that eventually Egg gets the throne and he's able to marry the person he loves and reign for many years. Why not Dany?

Because it's a different story. This goes back to my argument then why it can't be like his father and mother? It's the same point which challenges your point of it being foregone conclusion of them on the iron throne. It can go different ways but given George wants to respect hisory, his work but also don't think he just wants to reacreate it. Yes, Egg ruled and was happy but was not facing the white walkers, and Rhaegar as far as I now, did loved Lyanna ... and how that ended up for them? Given the structure of the story and how it goes.

I have my doubts Jon and Dany on the iron throne, with baby, Tyrion as a Hand. That gives as far as I know impression of being a bit too sweet. Not my opinion but people's. I can sort of seeing where they're coming from. It will be come too smooth and there is always price to pay. At least that's what I've learned but do I expect a massacre? No, but also not for it to be that good.

I can see Dany saving the world, ruling but losing Jon or vice versa. Jon being miserable and saving the world. There probably will be a balance in the ending that will make it bittersweet.

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Posted (edited)

On ASOIAF's ending being dark because his other works were dark...First of all, GRRM has written his fair share of horror, a genre not known for happy endings, so that's not really a useful comparison. Nor has he written anything remotely like ASOIAF in terms of genre. The closest of GRRM's works to ASOIAF in terms of genre is Windhaven, which despite having its fair share of angst had a reasonably happy ending, with the protagonist suffering a great loss but finding love, moving on with her life, and dying of old age. The Armageddon Rag also had a happyish ending, despite portending all sorts of doom.

Since GRRM had no experience writing sword and sorcery material, he seems to have drawn heavily on works like LOTR, the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn Trilogy, etc., to help him along. These works also had plenty of dark moments, but they did not have tragic or dark endings, and certainly not on the order of awfulness that you're suggesting fits GRRM's idea of "bittersweet." 

 

On 5/28/2017 at 1:40 PM, Lord Friendzone said:

Not only psychological, in the world were death follows our characters around. There will be inevitably death and psychological suffring. It's not mutually exclusive.

Not according to GRRM's definition of bittersweet, which he has helpfully defined with reference to the ending of LOTR. He has said exactly what he means by bittersweet, and death is not what he meant.

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I have my doubts Jon and Dany on the iron throne, with baby, Tyrion as a Hand. That gives as far as I know impression of being a bit too sweet. Not my opinion but people's.

People who are likely using their own definition of "bittersweet" without reference to GRRM's, which is the only one that matters if we're trying to predict how ASOIAF will end.

I think fans have been lured by GRRM into the opposite of a false sense of security: they falsely believe the main five are at just as much risk as the other characters. GRRM said himself in the outline that this is entirely deliberate, but I do think it will lead to shock and even dismay among the fans when they realize that Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran and Arya are and always have been safe.

Edited by Newstar

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Ellaria Sand and Yara. 

Who could have ever guessed that?

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18 hours ago, Newstar said:

 

I think fans have been lured by GRRM into the opposite of a false sense of security: they falsely believe the main five are at just as much risk as the other characters. GRRM said himself in the outline that this is entirely deliberate, but I do think it will lead to shock and even dismay among the fans when they realize that Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran and Arya are and always have been safe.

Well, of those 5, it is pretty clear that at least Bran and Tyrion are going to live to the end of the series, and that at least Jon or Dany will also be alive at the end.  So that only leaves Arya as a potential change, and whether or not both Jon and Dany are alive.  I would be happy if all 5 live...however Jon and Dany falling in love, and ruling together at the end seems unlike the author.  They may marry, but it won't be a love match, or they could have some kind of relationship, but it won't be a lasting one.  However, I've never thought Jon would end up on the IT or ruling Westeros, he has no interest and his story has always been in the North.

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22 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Well, of those 5, it is pretty clear that at least Bran and Tyrion are going to live to the end of the series, and that at least Jon or Dany will also be alive at the end.  So that only leaves Arya as a potential change, and whether or not both Jon and Dany are alive.  I would be happy if all 5 live...however Jon and Dany falling in love, and ruling together at the end seems unlike the author.  They may marry, but it won't be a love match, or they could have some kind of relationship, but it won't be a lasting one.  However, I've never thought Jon would end up on the IT or ruling Westeros, he has no interest and his story has always been in the North.

idk, one of Dany's main themes is her 3 mounts.  She now needs to find 'the one to love' and the blue flower in her vision.  I think her and Jon will have some sort of epic love story in the last 1.5 books, but that also makes me think one of them will die, as you said, which would be more like the author.  If they dont fall in love, then they wont die.  

But I'm super seriously wishing that none of the Main 5 die.

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8 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

idk, one of Dany's main themes is her 3 mounts.  She now needs to find 'the one to love' and the blue flower in her vision.  I think her and Jon will have some sort of epic love story in the last 1.5 books, but that also makes me think one of them will die, as you said, which would be more like the author.  If they dont fall in love, then they wont die.  

But I'm super seriously wishing that none of the Main 5 die.

It's possible, but me, I haven't seen that foreshadowing of them falling in love, and I'm not sure the author can believably give them an epic love story in what will be one book [cough, cough], since according to him she spends many chapters with the Dothraki in Winds, so it seems likely she will not sail or land in Westeros until near the end of Winds.....and then she has to deal with Aegon....so she wouldn't even meet Jon Snow until the absolute end of Winds or the next book [cough cough whenever that comes out, cough cough].  

I don't really care if Tyrion or Dany die, which probably means they are 100% going to live.  

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On 5/30/2017 at 10:19 AM, Cas Stark said:

Well, of those 5, it is pretty clear that at least Bran and Tyrion are going to live to the end of the series, and that at least Jon or Dany will also be alive at the end.  So that only leaves Arya as a potential change, and whether or not both Jon and Dany are alive.  I would be happy if all 5 live...however Jon and Dany falling in love, and ruling together at the end seems unlike the author.  They may marry, but it won't be a love match, or they could have some kind of relationship, but it won't be a lasting one.  However, I've never thought Jon would end up on the IT or ruling Westeros, he has no interest and his story has always been in the North.

The show seems to be setting up Jon as the endgame king in as loud and obvious a manner as possible, even though he's technically a zombie at this point. I would be shocked--shocked!--if we got some other outcome.

The only real question mark for me is whether Dany will die or whether she will live to be his queen. I'm leaning more and more towards "queen" these days.

I think a lot of the endgames will be shockingly obvious in hindsight, to the point where fans will be kicking themselves for overthinking it.

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2 minutes ago, Newstar said:

The show seems to be setting up Jon as the endgame king in as loud and obvious a manner as possible, even though he's technically a zombie at this point. I would be shocked--shocked!--if we got some other outcome.

The only real question mark for me is whether Dany will die or whether she will live to be his queen. I'm leaning more and more towards "queen" these days.

I think a lot of the endgames will be shockingly obvious in hindsight, to the point where fans will be kicking themselves for overthinking it.

No question many book readers have seriously over thought the story, LOL.

I actually see the opposite, though, I see Dany set up as queen, as the power, not Jon.  He might be king, but I don't really see the show setting that up, they're setting up a confrontation with the NK for Jon.  But Dany already basically has her court with her, Tyrion as hand, Missy, Varys, she will be ready to roll in KL, unlike Jon Snow Stark Targaryen.

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10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

No question many book readers have seriously over thought the story, LOL.

I actually see the opposite, though, I see Dany set up as queen, as the power, not Jon.  He might be king, but I don't really see the show setting that up, they're setting up a confrontation with the NK for Jon.  But Dany already basically has her court with her, Tyrion as hand, Missy, Varys, she will be ready to roll in KL, unlike Jon Snow Stark Targaryen.

What keeps bugging me is the outline where GRRM seemed to say that the main five would make it through all three (as then planned) books. Some fans have interpreted that bit to mean that the characters could make it through all three volumes and then die at the end, but I don't find that a persuasive argument when the context of the quote is examined. We can safely conclude that GRRM back in 1993 intended both Jon and Dany to survive, and he has consistently said that he has always had more or less the same ending in mind.

As it stands now, I don't really see any way an ending with both Jon and Dany surviving can play out other than Jon and Dany ruling together. There are theories that Jon will go north of the Wall as part of some sort of peace deal with the WW, as well as theories that Dany will ultimately realize that ruling Westeros isn't all it's cracked up to be and head back to Essos to find a house with a red door, but those don't seem to fit to me.

GRRM has made so much out of Jon and Dany becoming rulers, to the point where he gave them parallel arcs in ADWD where they struggled with the challenges of leadership. GRRM seems to be "training" Jon and Dany to rule. It would seem to be a huge copout if that didn't result in them becoming king and queen in the end. It seems like the logical culmination of everything they've gone through and everything they've been building towards. And Tyrion, who is now not only Dany's Hand but has a preexisting friendship and rapport with Jon, seems like the perfect candidate to complete the King/Queen/Hand triad. 

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1 minute ago, Newstar said:

What keeps bugging me is the outline where GRRM seemed to say that the main five would make it through all three (as then planned) books. Some fans have interpreted that bit to mean that the characters could make it through all three volumes and then die at the end, but I don't find that a persuasive argument when the context of the quote is examined. We can safely conclude that GRRM back in 1993 intended both Jon and Dany to survive, and he has consistently said that he has always had more or less the same ending in mind.

As it stands now, I don't really see any way an ending with both Jon and Dany surviving can play out other than Jon and Dany ruling together. There are theories that Jon will go north of the Wall as part of some sort of peace deal with the WW, as well as theories that Dany will ultimately realize that ruling Westeros isn't all it's cracked up to be and head back to Essos to find a house with a red door, but those don't seem to fit to me.

GRRM has made so much out of Jon and Dany becoming rulers, to the point where he gave them parallel arcs in ADWD where they struggled with the challenges of leadership. GRRM seems to be "training" Jon and Dany to rule. It would seem to be a huge copout if that didn't result in them becoming king and queen in the end. It seems like the logical culmination of everything they've gone through and everything they've been building towards. And Tyrion, who is now not only Dany's Hand but has a preexisting friendship and rapport with Jon, seems like the perfect candidate to complete the King/Queen/Hand triad. 

I'm showing my bias now, but Dany's Dance arc showed me she doesn't have the temperament to rule, but I don't think GRRM sees it that way.  It's hard to say, Jon's entire story is about the North, so I can see him as KitN, but not King of Westeros.

As far as George's outline....he is often wrong.  So, the outline could mean all 5 live or he could have changed his mind 15 or 20 years ago about that.  We will never know.  All we are going to know is what ending he told to HBO.

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Posted (edited)

There is still the issue of fertility. There are question marks about Dany's fertility, not only in the books but also more and more in the show. Will this turn out to be a red herring, or be cured in some way?

As for Jon, he was stabbed multiple times and presumably bled to death, with a number of organs damaged. He will then be resurrected, apparently through Melisandre's fire/blood magic. We know what possible similar magic did to Beric. Could Beric still have children in this state? Would Jon?

If a Jon+Dany coupling can't have children, then the Targaryen dynasty would pretty much die with them (unless Tyrion is also discovered or believed to be a Targ) and they would have to appoint a successor. If one of them can have children and the other can't, there would be pressure to maintain the dynasty by arranging a marriage for the person who is fertile.

Those are also considerations. I note that the books (through Jojen, I believe) have referred to the dragons, and the other "magical" beings, as a dying breed. IIRC, Jojen also suggested that the Direwolves would outlast the others (but not for very long). I guess that's also Martin given a hint toward the bitter portion of the "bittersweet" ending - expect at least 2 out of 3 dragons to die before the end and no further dragon offspring to rebuild the Targaryen glory (not that this is necessarily a bad thing given the potential for misuse of such powerful weapons, but from Dany's perspective it would be sad, and if Dany is sad Jon may also be sad).

The peace deal with the Others thing is an angle I hadn't considered. Jon does seem willing to talk with the enemy in ADWD (through the wights in the ice cellar), I wonder if that will eventually lead anywhere. As things stand, it seems hard to imagine any kind of peace deal with the Others that doesn't involve humans being eradicated, at least in Westeros.

Edited by Wouter

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13 minutes ago, Wouter said:

There is still the issue of fertility. There are question marks about Dany's fertility, not only in the books but also more and more in the show. Will this turn out to be a red herring, or be cured in some way?

I thought the ADWD epilogue hinted that Dany's fertility was returning, since she is bleeding at the "wrong" time of the month (i.e. she might be having a miscarriage).

 

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As for Jon, he was stabbed multiple times and presumably bled to death, with a number of organs damaged. He will then be resurrected, apparently through Melisandre's fire/blood magic. We know what possible similar magic did to Beric. Could Beric still have children in this state? Would Jon?

I'm not convinced that Jon is going to die in the books the way he did in the show; maybe in the books he just passes out from blood loss but never actually dies. Didn't GRRM  say "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?" or words to that effect? If GRRM wants Jon to stay alive and reign a long time, he will, and GRRM will just never kill him off definitively to begin with, or in the alternative make some explanation up to explain why he's not like Beric.

 

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If a Jon+Dany coupling can't have children, then the Targaryen dynasty would pretty much die with them (unless Tyrion is also discovered or believed to be a Targ) and they would have to appoint a successor. If one of them can have children and the other can't, there would be pressure to maintain the dynasty by arranging a marriage for the person who is fertile.

While two or more of the dragons will likely die, I doubt GRRM will end the series with the annihilation of the Targ line. While this is a meta justification, I think GRRM loves the Targs too much to wipe them out altogether. With Jon, the most likely candidate for endgame king, revealed to be a Targ, the stage seems set for a continuation of the Targ line.

The bittersweet angle will be Dany and Jon trying to rebuild a united Targ kingdom without the benefit of the dragons. The Targs held Westeros for several generations and more than a hundred years after the dragons all died, though, so maybe they can make do without.

 

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The peace deal with the Others thing is an angle I hadn't considered. Jon does seem willing to talk with the enemy in ADWD (through the wights in the ice cellar), I wonder if that will eventually lead anywhere. As things stand, it seems hard to imagine any kind of peace deal with the Others that doesn't involve humans being eradicated, at least in Westeros.

D&D have described the WWs and the NK as essentially representing death. You can't really make peace deals with death.

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7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

No question many book readers have seriously over thought the story, LOL.

I actually see the opposite, though, I see Dany set up as queen, as the power, not Jon.  He might be king, but I don't really see the show setting that up, they're setting up a confrontation with the NK for Jon.  But Dany already basically has her court with her, Tyrion as hand, Missy, Varys, she will be ready to roll in KL, unlike Jon Snow Stark Targaryen.

This could happen.

Drogo was her first husband and ended up dead, Hizdar again dead and if Jon is third.

Then why all those hints to Jon being King is it just to show irony of the situation that he should've been the King but won't be? It sounds to me that everything is going according to Dany's plan but in the it won't be like that. Jon is eager hero but reluctant ruler. He's always thrusted upon with the responsibility of leading Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and then King in the North.

9 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

idk, one of Dany's main themes is her 3 mounts.  She now needs to find 'the one to love' and the blue flower in her vision.  I think her and Jon will have some sort of epic love story in the last 1.5 books, but that also makes me think one of them will die, as you said, which would be more like the author.  If they dont fall in love, then they wont die.  

But I'm super seriously wishing that none of the Main 5 die.

The timing is suspicious and if Dany is to be pregnant and bear a living child is what they're aiming at .. it doesn't look too good for them to survive. Even more so if Dany and Jon will get married at some point. Future would be secured with their child, leaving one of them to die. We can guess who it might be in that situation. 

I have this hunch that it will go like this and original outline was merely just a first draft of the story and George changed some aspects of the story. I'd hate for one of them to die but I just can see it.

On 29. 5. 2017 at 9:54 PM, Newstar said:

On ASOIAF's ending being dark because his other works were dark...First of all, GRRM has written his fair share of horror, a genre not known for happy endings, so that's not really a useful comparison. Nor has he written anything remotely like ASOIAF in terms of genre. The closest of GRRM's works to ASOIAF in terms of genre is Windhaven, which despite having its fair share of angst had a reasonably happy ending, with the protagonist suffering a great loss but finding love, moving on with her life, and dying of old age. The Armageddon Rag also had a happyish ending, despite portending all sorts of doom.

Since GRRM had no experience writing sword and sorcery material, he seems to have drawn heavily on works like LOTR, the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn Trilogy, etc., to help him along. These works also had plenty of dark moments, but they did not have tragic or dark endings, and certainly not on the order of awfulness that you're suggesting fits GRRM's idea of "bittersweet." 

His previous work should give us all hint on what he likes but it might not be applied for ASOIAF.

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Not according to GRRM's definition of bittersweet, which he has helpfully defined with reference to the ending of LOTR. He has said exactly what he means by bittersweet, and death is not what he meant.

And what is exactly George's idea of bittersweet because I don't know what is. He has complimented Tolkien's work on numerous occassions but do you honestly think he'll just copy it? I'll give him far more credit than that.

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People who are likely using their own definition of "bittersweet" without reference to GRRM's, which is the only one that matters if we're trying to predict how ASOIAF will end.

I think fans have been lured by GRRM into the opposite of a false sense of security: they falsely believe the main five are at just as much risk as the other characters. GRRM said himself in the outline that this is entirely deliberate, but I do think it will lead to shock and even dismay among the fans when they realize that Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran and Arya are and always have been safe.

You can say that but I think you've might have been lured into a false sene of security too. That's another way of looking at it. Original outline changed and as much as people should not reference in relations to Jon's future (Jon and Arya and other characters), neither should you in terms of ending. It was just a first draft and he tweaked many things since that, added characters and expanded the whole universe by making it much more complex story.

They've never been safe and certainly not at the end. I doubt you can find Jon's stabbing in that original outline. Original outline is a whole different beast to our story and while it offers some insight, let's not overrate it's relevancy to current events.

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He has said that he knows the ending for the major characters and has known it for decades....what we don't know is how much of the 'real' ending is in the outline and how much he has changed since the story evolved.  And, also, not for nothing but he says a lot of things that don't turn out to be accurate, so he could change the ending to make it different from the show just because.  Or not.  Or, alternatively we will never get George's ending and will have to live with the show version and whatever reaction he has to it.

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Posted (edited)

50 minutes ago, Wouter said:

There is still the issue of fertility. There are question marks about Dany's fertility, not only in the books but also more and more in the show. Will this turn out to be a red herring, or be cured in some way?

Dany believes in that as stated by Benioff during inside of episode. What she believes is not exactly what is the reality. She might need the right person to make it happen and that will be Jon Snow. We have solid evidence to think that she might be able to concieve a living child by the end of this story.

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As for Jon, he was stabbed multiple times and presumably bled to death, with a number of organs damaged. He will then be resurrected, apparently through Melisandre's fire/blood magic. We know what possible similar magic did to Beric. Could Beric still have children in this state? Would Jon?

Jon looks to me to be pretty much the exactly same person. He eats,drinks, sleeps as much as anybody else. Reproduction might not be a problem but what does his resurrection might have done, is that it could get Dany pregnant. He was touched by the magic just Dany.

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If a Jon+Dany coupling can't have children, then the Targaryen dynasty would pretty much die with them (unless Tyrion is also discovered or believed to be a Targ) and they would have to appoint a successor. If one of them can have children and the other can't, there would be pressure to maintain the dynasty by arranging a marriage for the person who is fertile.

Which is why I think one or both will have a child. George would not let Targaryens die like that, writing so many additional stories abou them, making Jon a secret Targaryen and Dany being for the most or thinking that way the last of the Targaryens.

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Those are also considerations. I note that the books (through Jojen, I believe) have referred to the dragons, and the other "magical" beings, as a dying breed. IIRC, Jojen also suggested that the Direwolves would outlast the others (but not for very long). I guess that's also Martin given a hint toward the bitter portion of the "bittersweet" ending - expect at least 2 out of 3 dragons to die before the end and no further dragon offspring to rebuild the Targaryen glory (not that this is necessarily a bad thing given the potential for misuse of such powerful weapons, but from Dany's perspective it would be sad, and if Dany is sad Jon may also be sad).

It might be connected to the white alkers, direwolves and other magical beings but before that there is a time to make a baby. A Dream of Spring sounds to me like this could be a metaphor for a child in some way.

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The peace deal with the Others thing is an angle I hadn't considered. Jon does seem willing to talk with the enemy in ADWD (through the wights in the ice cellar), I wonder if that will eventually lead anywhere. As things stand, it seems hard to imagine any kind of peace deal with the Others that doesn't involve humans being eradicated, at least in Westeros.

It could happen in the books but on the show any pace talks are unlikely to happen. D&D give their reasoning behind the motives of the white walkers, what they want, or who they are. They symbolize the death and have no intention of reasoning with the world of men and want to kill them all. They've been created this way by CotF and absolute evil might not be absolute after all, because this is not the kind of live they've choosen to live.

Edited by Lord Friendzone

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Posted (edited)

26 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I thought the ADWD epilogue hinted that Dany's fertility was returning, since she is bleeding at the "wrong" time of the month (i.e. she might be having a miscarriage).

 

I'm not convinced that Jon is going to die in the books the way he did in the show; maybe in the books he just passes out from blood loss but never actually dies. Didn't GRRM  say "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?" or words to that effect? If GRRM wants Jon to stay alive and reign a long time, he will, and GRRM will just never kill him off definitively to begin with, or in the alternative make some explanation up to explain why he's not like Beric.

 

Re: the ADWD epilogue. It's possible Dany's fertility is returning, but the show now apparently pointing attention to the fertility thing while this was downplayed back in season 1 and 2 is a a bit puzzling in that regard. I suppose D&D wouldn't mention it at this point unless it is going to play some role in the plot.

I'm pretty sure that Jon is dead at the end of ADWD - on this point D&D tend to follow the really major beats of the story, and this one is amongst those. His wound seem beyong magical healing anyway, even if a skilled (but conventional) maester would be around, which is not the case. Melisandre will resurrect him, or at least heal him much like Victarion was healed by Moqorro. It won't be natural. Jon is unlikely to still be 100%  ordinary human, even if the show has portrayed him as such post-resurrection. They did portray Beric as a pretty normal guy, too, except for the multiple resurrection thing.

GRRM cagey answer refers to Jon's resurrection and return, IMO.

And we don't know for sure  if GRRM wants Jon to reign a long time, do we? If he wanted him to be the hero but have not much joy in it afterwards, much like Frodo, then this would be one way to go around it. Even if he is around "in all books to the end".

Then again, as a magical being he could possibly become very old (think Melisandre) and reign extremely long as a childless king, long since widowed. That would also be bitter, in a way

Edited by Wouter

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I agree George is not going to kill off the Targaryens, he appears to be now more vested in their stories than those of the Starks.  So, Dany is not infertile, that was always MMD talking smack anyway.

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8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree George is not going to kill off the Targaryens, he appears to be now more vested in their stories than those of the Starks.  So, Dany is not infertile, that was always MMD talking smack anyway.

Yeah especially if the successor shows they are planning are Targaryen centric which it appears at least 2 of the 5 theyve written scripts for are.

People would be far less inclined to watch and learn more about the history of a targaryen dynasty if they know its just going to end at a certain point theyve already learned about.

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