Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

81 posts in this topic

15 hours ago, Newstar said:

 

As it stands now, I don't really see any way an ending with both Jon and Dany surviving can play out other than Jon and Dany ruling together. There are theories that Jon will go north of the Wall as part of some sort of peace deal with the WW, as well as theories that Dany will ultimately realize that ruling Westeros isn't all it's cracked up to be and head back to Essos to find a house with a red door, but those don't seem to fit to me.

GRRM has made so much out of Jon and Dany becoming rulers, to the point where he gave them parallel arcs in ADWD where they struggled with the challenges of leadership. GRRM seems to be "training" Jon and Dany to rule. It would seem to be a huge copout if that didn't result in them becoming king and queen in the end. It seems like the logical culmination of everything they've gone through and everything they've been building towards. And Tyrion, who is now not only Dany's Hand but has a preexisting friendship and rapport with Jon, seems like the perfect candidate to complete the King/Queen/Hand triad. 

Its too perfect and far too Hollywood of an ending for a series like ASOIAF or wvwn a show like GoT.

I agree Jon and Danys arcs have led them to being leaders but I disagree that them not being endgame king and queen would be a cop out.

There are multiple potential fitting endings for Jon, some involving death, some not. Jons arc takes him down the path of being a leader of men and a hero, not necessarily a king of westeros.

jon dying to save westeros would be a fitting end to his arc (if told right) as could him being King of the North ruling a separate kingdom whilst Dany is on the IT ruling five of the seven kingdoms (with Dorne being the other separate one) for example. 

I also disagree that the main 5 are completely safe. You are basing that on the assumption that the following is true:

a) the ending hasnt changed just because of the lines D&D and GRRM have told us

b that GRRM is still completely in control of how the story will end

c that GRRM cares about the integrity of his storytelling as much as his most devoted fans (most of whom are probably suffering from addiction)

Thats a massive (and almost certainly incorrect) assumption to make in my opinion.

GRRM would be facing absolutely huge amounts of pressure (and probably financial incentives) to end the story in a way that the producers and anyone else with financial interest in this now global phenomenon feel will enable them to generate the most revenue and leave the mass audiences satisfied.

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

Its too perfect and far too Hollywood of an ending for a series like ASOIAF or wvwn a show like GoT.

In what way? Westeros will be shattered, KL will likely be destroyed, the Crown will be greatly indebted to the Iron Bank with no way of paying off that debt, and Dany will have likely lost some or all of the dragons which allowed her to gain power in the first place. Nothing "perfect" or "Hollywood" about that.

GRRM does not intend and in fact never intended the ending to be a downer, and he has said as much, and frankly I don't see how the untimely deaths of any of the main five, particularly if one of them has fallen madly in love with another member of the main five, would be anything but a downer ending.

GRRM has also written other works which had uplifting endings: Windhaven and The Armageddon Rag, and the latter, despite having "armageddon" in the title, had a very "Hollywood" ending (the main characters attending a party together and having a great time). Anyone who thinks GRRM's endings are all angst and gloom needs to read Windhaven and The Armageddon Rag before weighing in on GRRM's endings.

 

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I also disagree that the main 5 are completely safe. You are basing that on the assumption that the following is true:

My opinion is based on the following facts:

1. The outline indicates that while GRRM intended to create the impression that no character is safe, GRRM planned the main five to survive the series.

2. GRRM has said over the years--before the adaptation of GOT ever aired--that the ending has always remained the same since 1991.

3. D&D have said that the ending will be the same in the books as it is in the show, that GRRM told them the ending very early on when they started working on the show, and that they have planned out the last episode for a long time.

4. When GRRM told D&D the ending, he anticipated that the books would stay ahead of the show, since it only became clear in the last 2-3 years that the show would pass the books, and D&D have known the ending for much longer than that. He had no reason to give anything other than the ASOIAF ending, since at the time he thought he could stay ahead of the show and that the show would never spoil the ending by beating the books to the punch.

 

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GRRM would be facing absolutely huge amounts of pressure (and probably financial incentives) to end the story in a way that the producers and anyone else with financial interest in this now global phenomenon feel will enable them to generate the most revenue and leave the mass audiences satisfied

There was no indication that GOT would be a global phenomenon or that GRRM was facing any such pressure when GRRM told them the ending several years ago. As far as he knew back then, the show was never even going to make it to air, let alone to the end. The first GOT pilot, as we know, was a disaster that had to be largely reshot. GRRM has had several unproduced scripts and cancelled projects over the years, so as a scarred veteran of TV writing, he would not have been operating under the assumption that he needed to come up with something to please "mass audiences" that as far as he knew at the time would never materialize.

This argument might have held some weight if one had assumed that GRRM hasn't yet told D&D the ending as of 2017, but we know that that is not the case. 

Edited by Newstar

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Jon and Dany ruling over Westeros together, restoring the Targ dynasty.....I'll grant you it's a LOTR parallel I guess, but it feels all wrong for the series to me.  However, based on what we know of Winds.....the series is not going to go the way I thought it was, and it's highly likely Dance was the last book I read.

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Cas Stark makes an excellent point, in that we may never find out the ending GRRM intended to write, since the books may never be finished. We will get the broad strokes of that ending with GOT, but in the details there will be differences, since the show has left out hundreds of characters and since GRRM may still be trying to figure out what will happen to minor characters like Bronn and Pod. With that said, I think it's safe to assume that the fates of the main characters will be the same in both GRRM's envisioned ending and the show.

I will say that aside from strongly hinting at Jon being the endgame king, the show in my opinion hasn't provided many clues as to the other main characters' endgames. Two possible clues are Tyrion talking about his winery and Arya wondering what's west of Westeros, but other than that, I'm drawing a blank.

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On 1. 6. 2017 at 6:51 PM, Newstar said:

Cas Stark makes an excellent point, in that we may never find out the ending GRRM intended to write, since the books may never be finished. We will get the broad strokes of that ending with GOT, but in the details there will be differences, since the show has left out hundreds of characters and since GRRM may still be trying to figure out what will happen to minor characters like Bronn and Pod. With that said, I think it's safe to assume that the fates of the main characters will be the same in both GRRM's envisioned ending and the show.

Clearly example is the the Hound because George doesn't have much of an idea what to do with his character at this point. Reasons why Hound is doing what he's doing next season. Same goes for other secondary/minor characters.

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I will say that aside from strongly hinting at Jon being the endgame king, the show in my opinion hasn't provided many clues as to the other main characters' endgames. Two possible clues are Tyrion talking about his winery and Arya wondering what's west of Westeros, but other than that, I'm drawing a blank.

If Jon is RLJ legit - he'll be the King and I imagine pretty decent one, also miserable not being Stark, living in the North and having to rule the Seven Kingdoms. Jaime's fate is pretty clear.

"How would you wanna go?"

"In the arms of a woman I love."

S05x04

On 1. 6. 2017 at 9:21 AM, Gaz0680 said:

Its too perfect and far too Hollywood of an ending for a series like ASOIAF or wvwn a show like GoT.

Quite frankly I won't surprised by some version of Hollywood ending but not with Dany and Jon. More so with the White Walkers because in my opinion they will have to be defeated. In the books it might be different.

I've been going back and forth with Dany and Jon. I've seen an interesting theory in which NK and Dany might have to die in order to be the balance in Westeros. I know D&D proclaimed Jon and Dany as Ice and Fire, but NK is also representation of Ice and Dany for Fire. Pretty important. But then, if Dany as a child how to do it so it can be beliveable and coherent? I don't know but something to think about as much as it sounds cruel, but it has some legs.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Lord Friendzone said:

If Jon is RLJ legit - he'll be the King and I imagine pretty decent one, also miserable not being Stark, living in the North and having to rule the Seven Kingdoms. Jaime's fate is pretty clear.

"How would you wanna go?"

"In the arms of a woman I love."

S05x04

Right, good point. 

Quote

I've been going back and forth with Dany and Jon. I've seen an interesting theory in which NK and Dany might have to die in order to be the balance in Westeros. I know D&D proclaimed Jon and Dany as Ice and Fire, but NK is also representation of Ice and Dany for Fire. Pretty important. But then, if Dany as a child how to do it so it can be beliveable and coherent? I don't know but something to think about as much as it sounds cruel, but it has some legs.

There is a theory that magic is slowly leaving the world of GOT/ASOIAF: in the show, the COTF are dead, the giants are dead, one of the dragons will die by the end of Season 7, etc. etc. This theory posits that the "magical" characters will have to die to restore balance to the world, leaving unmagical characters like Sansa to clean up the mess. To me, that would mean that Jon, who in the show is only being kept alive by magic, has to go. Of course, I have seen some fans of this theory argue that Jon will somehow survive this magic purge, which makes no sense, but whatever.

Edited by Newstar

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Actually GRRM has said before that he has Sandor's future story planned. He said so long ago. He said he can't wait to tell the rest of the story. And he keeps doing things like winking when people ask him about Sansa and Sandor's future. Cogman just said he got the jump on the gravedigger reveal.

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Posted (edited)

As for Jaime, the arms of the woman he loves, he said we don't get to choose who we love while Brienne had him in her arms. Brienne is the woman he'll be with in the end, I suspect. In the books, she defends him, after Cersei walks away, when it looks like he will die, so his ending is not at all clear.

(Also I think it's important that the dream stops there, and he chooses to goes back for Brienne. GRRM said you don't want to make prophecy too literal or too easy. What does going back there for Brienne do for future events, we don't know yet, but I bet there will be a twist or two to come.)

Edited by Le Cygne

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Posted (edited)

On 6/1/2017 at 11:20 AM, Cas Stark said:

Jon and Dany ruling over Westeros together, restoring the Targ dynasty.....I'll grant you it's a LOTR parallel I guess, but it feels all wrong for the series to me.  However, based on what we know of Winds.....the series is not going to go the way I thought it was, and it's highly likely Dance was the last book I read.

Doesn't seem like LOTR at all, and I don't see him doing matchy matchy stuff with another author's saga. And I can't see restoring the Targ dynasty as an ending to the series. Been there, done that. That's repeating the past. I think he'd go with a new direction, whatever that might be.

Edited by Le Cygne

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Posted (edited)

35 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Doesn't seem like LOTR at all, and I don't see him doing matchy matchy stuff with another author's saga. And I can't see restoring the Targ dynasty as an ending to the series. Been there, done that. That's repeating the past. I think he'd go with a new direction, whatever that might be.

Doubt it. GRRM's can't quit the Targs. He's written reams and reams of Westeros material telling Targ stories. He's not going to end the Targs for good, much less foreclose the possibility of post-ASOIAF Targ stories; he loves them too much. Revealing Jon, who is very likely to be the endgame king, as a Targ was a big part of it. Jon and Dany falling in love to have a kid together and found a new Targ dynasty--whether or not Dany lives to see it--is the last piece of the puzzle.

 

49 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

As for Jaime, the arms of the woman he loves, he said we don't get to choose who we love while Brienne had him in her arms. Brienne is the woman he'll be with in the end, I suspect. In the books, she defends him, after Cersei walks away, when it looks like he will die, so his ending is not at all clear.

Nah, Jaime is dead meat. Whether he dies heroically sacrificing himself to take down Cersei, whether he dies heroically sacrificing himself to save Bran's life, or whether he dies heroically with Brienne fighting the WWs is an open question, but it seems very clear that he's going to die. The fact that the writers had Jaime made a point of saying that he wanted to die in the arms of the woman he loves suggests that we'll see him do just that, except (plot twist!) it will be Brienne and not Cersei.

I mean, can you really see Jaime settling down at Casterly Rock with Brienne and raising a couple of kids with her? LOL. It makes for fun fanfic reading, but come on. Jaime has heroic self-sacrifice written all over him. 

 

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Actually GRRM has said before that he has Sandor's future story planned. He said so long ago.

He may have, but Cogman seemed to suggest that GRRM didn't bother filling D&D in, since Cogman admitted that the writers didn't know what GRRM is going to do with Sandor on the Quiet isle. Now, whether that means the writers are completely in the dark as to post-AFFC Sandor, or whether they do know where he winds up eventually but they don't know how he gets off the Quiet Isle, is an open question.

Based on the way they've been writing Sandor since his return, I think the writers know very well what they're going to do with Sandor (something something Arya something something heroic redemption), but it may not have anything at all to do with where he winds up in the books, and we likely won't know one way or another unless ADOS is published. The writers may be flying blind where Sandor is concerned. Furthermore, D&D are not going to come out after the show ends and specify which character endings are spoilers and which are ones that they just made up, after all. So we will never know unless ADOS is published, which is looking less and less likely.

Edited by Newstar

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Posted (edited)

Cogman said that he got the jump on the gravedigger reveal to the readers, he explained what he meant. He said the storyline is similar to the book storyline. Hence Sandor wearing Lem's cloak this season. Lots of us always figured that would happen, that he'd kill the fake Hound.

GRRM has known for a long time about Sandor's future, he said so, and they all said he told them about what he knew*, it was the stuff he didn't know yet that they didn't/don't know about. So all those scenes with Sansa and all those hints after, they actually were for a reason, go figure.

*Adding this, since I am seeing a bunch of misquotes because of shipping games (pretending Sandor doesn't matter, so Sansa will magically end up with some other guy!)

GRRM loves SanSan, he teased it recently, too. He said he has always known Sandor's future, and they all said he told them about the ending before the show started.

And LOL of course he told the showrunners about Sansa and the Hound as Beauty and the Beast, they put scenes on the show just like Cocteau and Disney. Like this one!

I put lots of direct quotes and more including the Disney parallels on the show here.

Edited by Le Cygne

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Posted (edited)

41 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Cogman said that he got the jump on the gravedigger reveal to the readers, he explained what he meant. He said the storyline is similar to the book storyline. Hence Sandor wearing Lem's cloak this season. Lots of us always figured that would happen, that he'd kill the fake Hound.

No, Cogman said explicitly in the DVD commentary that the writers weren't sure where GRRM was going with Sandor on the Quiet Isle. They could very well be making it up as they go along.

 

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So all those scenes with Sansa and all those hints after, they actually were for a reason, go figure.

SanSan evaporated after Season 2 in favour of Sandor's relationship with Arya, so either GRRM didn't tell them about Sandor's fate in 2013 and the writers have been making up Sandor's plot as they go along, which frankly would explain a lot, or GRRM did tell them about Sandor's fate and it didn't involve SanSan, which is probably why we haven't heard a peep about SanSan even as we've heard from Sandor and Arya about their relationship with each other. So SanSan fans hoping to see SanSan in the show are screwed either way, LOL. Either way, GRRM told D&D nothing about SanSan in 2013, whether it's because he told them nothing about Sandor post-AFFC or whether it's because he told them nothing about SanSan when telling them Sandor's fate, so D&D had to plan accordingly.

Edited by Newstar

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LOL nope and nope. Not what he said. And not what happened.

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8 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

 

"How would you wanna go?"

"In the arms of a woman I love."

S05x04

 

Juyst to clarify...it's the woman, not a woman. Small but big difference. :)

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Posted (edited)

56 minutes ago, Newstar said:

SanSan evaporated after Season 2 in favour of Sandor's relationship with Arya, so either GRRM didn't tell them about Sandor's fate in 2013 and the writers have been making up Sandor's plot as they go along, which frankly would explain a lot, or GRRM did tell them about Sandor's fate and it didn't involve SanSan, which is probably why we haven't heard a peep about SanSan even as we've heard from Sandor and Arya about their relationship with each other. So SanSan fans hoping to see SanSan in the show are screwed either way, LOL. Either way, GRRM told D&D nothing about SanSan in 2013, whether it's because he told them nothing about Sandor post-AFFC or whether it's because he told them nothing about SanSan when telling them Sandor's fate, so D&D had to plan accordingly.

I don't think SanSan and Sandor and Arya are mutually exclusive. The fact we have heard about Arya and Sandor and not SanSan means nothing. Jon has not been asked about Dany and they'll meet; same for Dany; Gendry will very likely meet Arya again in the show and she was asked about Sandor and not Gendry in the House of Black and White. The hints can appear in other ways, they don't have to be asked about each other and apart from that, there is still time to make one character ask about another in the episodes left (not that it is needed).

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

As for Jaime, the arms of the woman he loves, he said we don't get to choose who we love while Brienne had him in her arms. Brienne is the woman he'll be with in the end, I suspect. In the books, she defends him, after Cersei walks away, when it looks like he will die, so his ending is not at all clear.

(Also I think it's important that the dream stops there, and he chooses to goes back for Brienne. GRRM said you don't want to make prophecy too literal or too easy. What does going back there for Brienne do for future events, we don't know yet, but I bet there will be a twist or two to come.)

Yes, that line of " we don't get to choose...." that's revealing of who he will end up loving. That's the only sure thing we know, this line is from the start of their relationship, and it develops after that moment. So revealing.

Same with "Who is that Beast" when he first sees her with Catelyn. Beast, suggesting they'll have a BaTB story, a love story based on falling in love with the inside of the other person. (not that they are not physically attracted to each other as well, which is also true).

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Posted (edited)

39 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Juyst to clarify...it's the woman, not a woman. Small but big difference. :)

The interesting part of that quote is Bronn asking Jaime afterwards whether the woman he loves feels the same way. So it could be a reference to Cersei after all as foreshadowing, not to Brienne. We'll see.

 

30 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't think SanSan and Sandor and Arya are mutually exclusive. The fact we have heard about Arya and Sandor and not SanSan means nothing. Jon has not been asked about Dany and they'll meet; same for Dany

Yes, because as of the end of Season 6, Jon and Dany have never met.

Sandor and Arya talking about each other is a good example of how D&D are continuing to build the relationship despite the characters' separation. They could have chosen to do the same for Sandor and Sansa and chose not to. That omission speaks volumes.

 

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 The hints can appear in other ways, they don't have to be asked about each other and apart from that, there is still time to make one character ask about another in the episodes left (not that it is needed).

Except there are no SanSan hints that have appeared across multiple seasons, and there are no hints in Season 7 if the leaks are to be believed. Sandor does apparently ask Brienne in Season 7 about why she isn't at Winterfell protecting...Arya. LOL. Sandor and Brienne have the perfect opportunity to talk about Sansa, what with Brienne being Sansa's representative and all, and whom do they talk about? Arya.

D&D give no shits about SanSan, and it's hilarious.

Edited by Newstar

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Posted (edited)

23 minutes ago, Newstar said:

The interesting part of that quote is Bronn asking Jaime afterwards whether the woman he loves feels the same way. So it could be a reference to Cersei after all as foreshadowing, not to Brienne. We'll see.

Yes, because that scene has the double meaning. Bronn might be referring to Cersei (and Jaime might be thinking of Cersei) so they could be hinting at them breaking up. The other possibility is that Bronn is referring to Brienne, and actively asks him about Brienne (with an indirect question....we know Bronn knows how they see eachother te season after) and thus asks him about "who is that woman"....is it Brienne, is it Cersei? Does "she" feel the same way?

Also we don't know who Jaime is thinking about in that scene, he might be thinking about both of them, since before that we have the "Tarth" scene.

But it's a reference to Jaime having to choose Brienne. It's after the Tarth scene. It can very well be foreshadowing of Cersei and Jaime breaking up. It can also be foreshadowing of being Brienne and he dying in her arms as well, but the main objective of that scene is to remind the audience of the existence of Brienne and the confusion that Jaime will have to face in the outcoming seasons, until he finally discovers  that the love of his life is Brienne.

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Yes, because as of the end of Season 6, Jon and Dany have never met.

Sandor and Arya talking about each other is a good example of how D&D are continuing to build the relationship despite the characters' separation. They could have chosen to do the same for Sandor and Sansa and chose not to. That omission speaks volumes.

And I also put the example of Gendry and Arya....I think they'll meet and maybe, just maybe, it can end up with something romantic. But the Waif asked Arya about Sandor, not Gendry. No reference to Gendry in Arya's episodes. Same could go with SanSan. It could still happen. 13 episodes left. The last time Sansa and Sandor see eachother is a romantic scene, and the last time Arya sees Gendry also emphasizes that Arya cares a lot about Gendry.

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Except there are no SanSan hints that have appeared across multiple seasons, and there are no hints in Season 7 if the leaks are to be believed. Sandor does apparently ask Brienne in Season 7 about why she isn't at Winterfell protecting...Arya. LOL. Sandor and Brienne have the perfect opportunity to talk about Sansa, what with Brienne being Sansa's representative and all, and whom do they talk about? Arya.

D&D give no shits about SanSan, and it's hilarious.

I think there are some hints of SanSan in the last seasons, but even if they didn't exist it wouldn't diminish their story before they separated and the fact that it can still happen.

I don't know about that leak. I remember one leak about Sandor and Brienne about him being afraid that I don't think it's plausible, but this one is the first time I read it. Anyway, as I said, they don't have to be asked about eachother to happen. And if that happened, I doubt the hint would be through Brienne considering that in the show Brienne and Sandor are not "friends". In fact, Brienne already refused to mention Sandor once in the past. That's why it's not the best idea to use her for that purpose, as I said, they are not "friends"...at least now. It would be a better idea if it was in a conversation with Jon, for instance. Not that it has to happen in that way. Sansa and Sandor can just meet.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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Spoiler

 If George knew about Sandor's arc, why is that he's going up the North with BwB and not doing something else that he seems to be more inclined in the books? Settling score with Ser Robert Strong, more inclined heading towards King's Landing than the North and not to mention Beyond the Wall. His arc is different becaue D&D don't know much and by that also George or decided to change it a lot for some reason. 

 

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Juyst to clarify...it's the woman, not a woman. Small but big difference. :)

;) All the same, Jaime won't make in the fight against the white walkers. Kinda sad but it also makes sense.

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I'm really happy that Sandor is Team Stark this season. Just like Gendry, they both lost their Riverlands plots, where they most likely ran into Sansa and Arya, if all the many hints in the books are right. I thought it was cute, someone said how nice it was that Jon has both his sisters future husbands along for the hunt.

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