Greyjoy-Bolton invasion of Winterfell was Reeds' only hope?

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Meera and Jojen wanted to take Bran to Three-Eyed Raven.

Bran couldn't leave Winterfell because he was acting Lord of Winterfell when Robb was leading campaign in Riverlands. Only Theon's and Ramsay's acts made it possible.

So my question is that: What did Reeds think when they left Greywater Watch? What was their plan? If they knew that something bad would happen and Bran could leave Winterfell why they didn't inform others? I know that they did it in Winterfell and no one believed them. But I suspect Jojen knew more before coming to Winterfell. Did he share these thoughts with his father?

Is it possible that Robb's downfall means nothing to Jojen and Howland?

[Adam Targaryen]

OMG I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT!!! Splendid observation, WTF. I would think Howland definitely cares but maybe Jojen, being a greenseer, knows that certain things have to be. He has a special kind of responsibility, maturity and insight and probably understands that the invasion of Winterfell was necessary for Bran to fulfill his destiny. If he saw it coming, that is.

[jthurman14]

Yes, very good catch. Jojen told Bran about the sea coming and flooding WF, right? That had to be soon after their arrival at WF. It would be more in line with Jojen's Raven dreams being recurring dream/themes. That it was not the first time he had the WF underwater dream. Does it say in the text he had seen it before? Perhaps the visions of impending invasion and Brans possible imprisonment/murder is what spurred Jojen and Meera to risk going to WF. (or more likely influenced Howland to send his children into such a dangerous situation. Something I have always wondered about.)

Also my guess is there was nothing the Crannogmen could do to help WF or Robb by that time. Other than sending a suicide mission.  

 

 

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

11 minutes ago, jthurman14 said:

Yes, very good catch. Jojen told Bran about the sea coming and flooding WF, right? That had to be soon after their arrival at WF. It would be more in line with Jojen's Raven dreams being recurring dream/themes. That it was not the first time he had the WF underwater dream. Does it say in the text he had seen it before? Perhaps the visions of impending invasion and Brans possible imprisonment/murder is what spurred Jojen and Meera to risk going to WF. (or more likely influenced Howland to send his children into such a dangerous situation. Something I have always wondered about.)

Also my guess is there was nothing the Crannogmen could do to help WF or Robb by that time. Other than sending a suicide mission.  

 

 

Jojen is sure about his ability to see things.

Quote

Sitting cross-legged under the weirwood, Jojen Reed regarded him solemnly. “It would be good if you left Winterfell, Bran.”
“It would?”
“Yes. And sooner rather than later.”
“My brother has the greensight,” said Meera. “He dreams things that haven’t happened, but sometimes they do.”
“There is no sometimes, Meera.” A look passed between them; him sad, her defiant.

Howland definitely believes Jojen's dreams.

Quote

“You are the winged wolf, Bran,” said Jojen. “I wasn’t sure when we first came, but now I am. The crow sent us here to break your chains.”
“Is the crow at Greywater?”
“No. The crow is in the north.”
“At the Wall?” Bran had always wanted to see the Wall. His bastard brother Jon was there now, a man of the Night’s Watch.
“Beyond the Wall.” Meera Reed hung the net from her belt. “When Jojen told our lord father what he’d dreamed, he sent us to Winterfell.”

Jojen had first dream about Greyjoy invasion in Greywater.

Quote

Bran nodded.
“It is the sea that comes.”
“The sea?”
“I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard. When I first dreamed the dream, back at Greywater, I didn’t know their faces, but now I do. That Alebelly is one, the guard who called our names at the feast. Your septon’s another. Your smith as well.”

So we have two options left:

1. Jojen didn't inform his father about the dream.

2. Howland didn't understand prophecy of dream.

[Winter prince]

2 hours ago, Brandon Baratheon said:

Jojen is sure about his ability to see things.

Howland definitely believes Jojen's dreams.

Jojen had first dream about Greyjoy invasion in Greywater.

So we have two options left:

1. Jojen didn't inform his father about the dream.

2. Howland didn't understand prophecy of dream.

Negative on both of your options.  Jojen and Howland both know the dream and both know they can't do anything to change it.  They didn't know the extent of the dream nor that it was actually Theon's uprising against Robb, so I wouldn't say that they didn't care about Robb's downfall, they just didn't know enough.

 

[Night Train to Kathmandu]

Robb needed to fail.  Osha already told Bran.  His brother is marching the wrong way.  Robb's success in battle would only escalate the conflict and prevent peace.  Jojen may not be mature enough to understand these things but Meera would.  I can believe the Reeds witholding information to get Bran out of Winterfell.

[Traverys]

I don't think Jojen knows very much at all and that he is just a middle-man as far as his visions go.

In fact, he even tells Bran and Meera that there is no way to stop his visions from happening, which is contrary to Melisandre's visions. Perhaps it's the difference between someone naturally gifted with The Sight (Jojen) versus someone who actively has to utilize pyromancy. However, I think Jojen would venture more on the side of a prophet or seer than someone with a magic power to see the future. His ability seems to be very guided and for a specific cause. I doubt he could use it for personal gain at all... in fact, he seems to be very much aware of how and when he will die.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

14 hours ago, Winter prince said:

Negative on both of your options.  Jojen and Howland both know the dream and both know they can't do anything to change it.

Why did Howland leave the swamp and how does Jojen know you can't change the dream.

 

Did Howland dream of the Starks/Jon and tried to stop all the deaths learning the hard way that events can't be altered and only become clear after the fact

[Traverys]

9 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Why did Howland leave the swamp and how does Jojen know you can't change the dream.

 

Did Howland dream of the Starks/Jon and tried to stop all the deaths learning the hard way that events can't be altered and only become clear after the fact

When Jojen gives the prophecy of the ocean coming to Winterfell, Bran says he's going to warn the three men who Jojen saw dead so they could live. Jojen says it's a wasted effort and that they will die regardless. They all die despite Bran's warning, but this was also largely due to the unspecific nature of the vision. They all feared drowning when it was really a vision about Theon Greyjoy raiding Winterfell.

Later, Jojen see's Reek peeling off Rickon and Bran's faces and Meera says she'll go and kill Reek. Jojen responds that she won't be able to stop the vision from happening.

Add that to Jojen constantly saying "this is not the day I die" and it seems he has a fairly good idea that his visions are set in stone.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

1 minute ago, Traverys said:

Add that to Jojen constantly saying "this is not the day I die" and it seems he has a fairly good idea that his visions are set in stone.

Yes but how does he know either he is speaking from experience no offence but what tragic events can he dream about in a swamp? His mother's death mayhaps.  Or is it that the gift runs strong in his family and his father has shared his curse and knows from bitter experience that they can't be altered.

 

Bran is told he can't alter the past but will atempt and probably succeed in doing so.  Jojen needs to be told by someone then fail to prevent a tragedy or he isn't told and needs several trageys to be so sure and also solemn.

 

His father sending him to WF or possibly to his death depending on what he has dreamed suggests to me his father has first hand dream experiences too

[jthurman14]

I don't remember the peeling off of faces, it's been a while since I read the books. Is that a vision of Theon (future Reek) killing the millers boys (possibly one of which being his own son)?

 

[fire&blood]

Maybe Howland Reed shares Jojen's gift/ability and saw Lyanna's death, thinking he can change it, and went along with Ned to the Tower of Joy. Where he learned the hard way that you can't change what the green visions show you. 

7 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Why did Howland leave the swamp and how does Jojen know you can't change the dream.

 

Did Howland dream of the Starks/Jon and tried to stop all the deaths learning the hard way that events can't be altered and only become clear after the fact

 

[BricksAndSparrows]

I would imagine that Jojen, Meera, and Howland considered the "quest," to be a dangerous one. But even though Jojen knew what was going to happen, he didn't know what was going to happen.

Where he was probably far more certain, was that the state of Winterfell after the fulfillment of his greendream, was nearly irrelavant compared to what would become of the realm should they fail in their pursuit for the Three Eyed Crow.

I'm guessing Jojen's talk with Howland went something like: "...I see. You and your sister must go than, do what you can. You must bring Bran to the Three Eyed Crow."

Okay, so I'm paraphrasing..

[Lord Wraith]

On 5/15/2017 at 11:49 AM, Brandon Baratheon said:

Meera and Jojen wanted to take Bran to Three-Eyed Raven.

Bran couldn't leave Winterfell because he was acting Lord of Winterfell when Robb was leading campaign in Riverlands. Only Theon's and Ramsay's acts made it possible.

So my question is that: What did Reeds think when they left Greywater Watch? What was their plan? If they knew that something bad would happen and Bran could leave Winterfell why they didn't inform others? I know that they did it in Winterfell and no one believed them. But I suspect Jojen knew more before coming to Winterfell. Did he share these thoughts with his father?

Is it possible that Robb's downfall means nothing to Jojen and Howland?

I have read a theory that Theon, Jojen, and Ramsay are all getting similar dreams and visions. All play a role in order to get Bran Stark North of the Wall. After all if he is the Stark in Winterfell why would he ever leave his safe and comfortable home. Unless he was forced out and had no where else to go.