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Lyanna Mormont's parents


Vaedys Targaryen

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So there is something I realised when I was reading a thread about Lynesse Hightower:

Lynesse married Jorah Mormont in 289AC right after the Tourney at Lannisport, which was held to celebrate Robert Baratheon's victory against the Greyjoy Rebellion. After marrying Jorah, they both moved to Bear Island where Lynesse was not particularily happy. This lead to a bunch of stuff, where in the end they flee to the Free Cities because Jorah sold poachers to passing slavers, where they later seperated because Lynesse became the concubine of the merchant prince, Tregar Ormellen.

As far as we know, Lynesse and Jorah had no children together, but what if they did?

Enter Lyanna Mormont.

Lyanna Mormont was born in 290AC, which makes her around 10 years old in 300AC. We are told that Maege Mormont is her mother, but we have no clue who her father is, like with all her older sisters and her niece and nephew.

But what if Maege isn't Lyanna's mother, but her parents are instead Jorah and Lynesse?

The reasons for my belief are:

1. Jorah and Lynesse married in 289AC and Lyanna was born in 290AC, which is a year after their marriage. We see time and time again with many marriages that their first child is usually born around a year later or later that same year. This makes sense, because, you know, pregnancy lasts around nine months.

2. Maege Mormont is an older woman; the older a woman gets, the harder it is for her to get pregnant and if she does get pregnant, her children are more likely to be born sickly. I have no real knowledge about how old Maege is, but according to the official Wiki, she was born in or between 237AC and 257AC, which would've placed her at least somewhere in her mid-to-late 30's around Lyanna's birth. Jorah was also around and he did have a young and seemingly fertile wife, which would give Maege and her daughters no reason to try to birth heirs.

3. Although we are never directly told that Jorah and Lynesse had children, we do get one very small piece of information:

Quote

"My nephew Jorah brought home a proper lady once," said Lady Maege. "He won her in a tourney. How she hated that carving."

"Aye, and all the rest," said Dacey. "She had hair like spun gold, that Lynesse. Skin like cream. But her soft hands were never made for axes."

"Nor her teats for giving suck," her mother said bluntly.

aSoS

Catelyn V

What does this mean? Maege says that Lynesse's breasts were "not for giving suck". We know it is common in southern Westeros for little babies to have wetnurses, often because their mother died or their mother has "gone dry", but isn't it also common for the noble ladies to have wetnurses just because? Could Maege imply that Lynesse had insisted that her child would've gotten a wetnurse so she wouldn't have to nurse it, or does Maege imply that Lynesse was a bad mother, or both? (Maege as talking about the Mormont woman carving after all.)

4. We know that Bear Island is a rather mysterious and isolated place; Maege has five (or only four?) daughters with an unknown man or multiple men, and her second oldest daughter also has two children with an unknown man or men, but no one seems to really care. They are all given the name Mormont, when, traditioally, they should've had their father's name or the name Snow.

Given how no one seems to care who the fathers of Maege's children are and how isolated the island is, isn't it possible that after Jorah and Lynesse fled to the Free Cities and Maege said that Lyanna was her daughter, the people of Bear Island would just not care and the rest of the North would simply believe it because, 1. it wouldn't be Maege's first child with an unknown man and they thusly wouldn't know any better, and 2. would they really care?

5. It is pretty much accepted as canon that Jon Snow is not Eddard Stark's bastard. Whether or not it is R+L=J, "R"+L=J, A+L=J or whatever have you, Jon is not Eddard's and Eddard managed to take this secret with him to the grave and he was Lord Paramount in the North and was smack in the middle of everything in the North. Maege and Lyanna Mormont are on Bear Island, which is incredibly isolated and Maege also has at least four other daughters with unknown men. Isn't it possible that if Eddard can keep Jon's true parantage a secret, while he is in the smack center of everything, Maege would be able to keep Lyanna's true parentage a secret in almost complete isolation?

 

What do you think? What are the possibilities?

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Inreresting theory but why wouldn't Jorah mention his daughter or why would Maege raise her as one of her own children?

Anyway I think that Maege's comment about Lynesse was her way of saying that her sister in law only cared about the pleasures of life and had no time for responsibilities. It is possible that she didn't want to have children at all. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Danelle said:

Inreresting theory but why wouldn't Jorah mention his daughter or why would Maege raise her as one of her own children?

Anyway I think that Maege's comment about Lynesse was her way of saying that her sister in law only cared about the pleasures of life and had no time for responsibilities. It is possible that she didn't want to have children at all. 

 

 

I feel like this is dead on, especially with everything we know of Lynesse, Plus I feel like Jorah would have told Dany during his speech about his life during there time in the red waste where he tells her about his marriage to Lynesse from beginning to end.

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19 minutes ago, Danelle said:

Inreresting theory but why wouldn't Jorah mention his daughter or why would Maege raise her as one of her own children?

Admittedly good question. Perhaps he was ashamed that he had abandoned his daughter and he didn't want Dany, who had just lost her own child, to think less of him?

22 minutes ago, Danelle said:

Anyway I think that Maege's comment about Lynesse was her way of saying that her sister in law only cared about the pleasures of life and had no time for responsibilities. It is possible that she didn't want to have children at all. 

Raises the question why she married Jorah at all then. Jorah was the lord of Bear Island and his sons would rule the island after him. She must've known that she would HAVE to give him children.

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Just now, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Admittedly good question. Perhaps he was ashamed that he had abandoned his daughter and he didn't want Dany, who had just lost her own child, to think less of him?

Raises the question why she married Jorah at all then. Jorah was the lord of Bear Island and his sons would rule the island after him. She must've known that she would HAVE to give him children.

Lynesse was the youngest of Hightower's daughters,she met Jorah when both of them were quite young and the circumstances were ideal for a romance to bloom.

She was a young and beautiful maiden and he was a gallant knight who asked for her favor.

Quote
It was there I saw Lynesse, a maid half my age. She had come up from Oldtown with her father to see her brothers joust. I could not take my eyes off her. In a fit of madness, I begged her favor to wear in the tourney, never dreaming she would grant my request, yet she did."
"I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse's favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion's laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty, and that very night went to her father and asked for her hand. I was drunk, as much on glory as on wine. By rights I should have gotten a contemptuous refusal, but Lord Leyton accepted my offer. We were married there in Lannisport, and for a fortnight I was the happiest man in the wide world."

Not only did her knight won the tournament but crowned her queen and asked to marry her. He was not a second son or a mere noble but the Lord of Bear Island and a sought after bachelor. He fought bravely during the Greyjoy Rebellion and he was knighted by King Robert. All these are more than enough for a young noble lady to fall in love. She probably expected the North to be slightly colder than the Reach and the Bear Island like her home. 

Quote

. My home was a great disappointment to Lynesse. It was too cold, too damp, too far away, my castle no more than a wooden longhall. We had no masques, no mummer shows, no balls or fairs. Seasons might pass without a singer ever coming to play for us, and there's not a goldsmith on the island. Even meals became a trial. My cook knew little beyond his roasts and stews, and Lynesse soon lost her taste for fish and venison."

Jorah did not seem to care about heirs, since his only concern was the happiness of Lynesse and he indulged her up to the point where Ned Stark came to execute him. Had Lynesse cared even a bit about Jorah or her duty to her husband, perhaps things might have been different.

Compare her to Catelyn, at first she was not attracted to Ned and did not feel comfortable at the North, but she came to love her new husband and home. 

Quote

Catelyn knew of whom they spoke; Jorah Mormont had brought his second wife to Winterfell for feasts, and once they had guested for a fortnight. She remembered how young the Lady Lynesse had been, how fair, and how unhappy. One night, after several cups of wine, she had confessed to Catelyn that the north was no place for a Hightower of Oldtown. "There was a Tully of Riverrun who felt the same once," she had answered gently, trying to console, "but in time she found much here she could love."

If the North is no place for a Hightower, then why would she bother give birth to Jorah;s child?

I think that the fact that Lynesse abandoned Jorah and became the influential mistress of a powerful man, indicates that she was never trully in love with her husband and prefers luxury and power. 

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2 hours ago, Danelle said:

Anyway I think that Maege's comment about Lynesse was her way of saying that her sister in law only cared about the pleasures of life and had no time for responsibilities. It is possible that she didn't want to have children at all. 

Yes, and it's well known that having children changes a woman's breasts irrevocably, and not necessarily in a good way, regardless of whether she nurses her babies. You can look up the sordid details yourselves...

Also, women can give birth in their late thirties or even forties. Maege Mormont, who was trained in arms, kept in fighting condition, and has actually been taking part in the recent wars, would be an even better pregnancy risk in her 40s than a typical "high born lady", whose major activities might be sewing and praying, or riding a horse every now and again.

Also, Lady Maege has better control over her fertility simply because she doesn't have a (demanding) husband; she can have her dates with bears in the woods on her schedule.

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Maege's exact age is unknown and according to the wiki she could be as young as 43. Remember that Lyanna is 10 years old, so Maege was ten years younger than she is now when Lyanna was born, and nearly eleven years younger when Lyanna was conceived. 

Keep in mind also that childbearing years are generally considered to be from 15-40 but can range above and below that depending on the individual. There are women these days who conceive in their 40s and 50s even without the help of modern fertility treatments.

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I don't see why Maege would disguise Lyanna as her own daughter, when she could just as easily be her niece or why GRRM would consider it to be a plot twist worth inserting into the books.

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I like this theory.  For me, I do not think Maege is on the younger end of the possible years of birth given (239-257 or whatever).  Her brother is Jeor and he was born in 230, i doubt his parents didnt have another child for more than 20 years, Maege being born in the late 230s-early 240s seems much more realistic, so her age is more like around 60 right now, making her around 50 if she is Lyanna's mom.  But lets take a look at the age's of the whole family:

  • Jeor Mormont: 230, died at about the age of 69
    • Jorah Mormont: roughly 254, so currently about 46 years old, 36 when Lyanna was born
  • Maege Mormont: 239-257, now way in my opinion she was born in the 250s, so she has to currently be around 60, give or take
    • Dacey Mormont: 252-277, given info for her sister Alysanne, lets just go with early 270s, so shes pushing 30 years old now
    • Alysane Mormont: 273-277, she is of an age with Asha Greyjoy, so lets just call it 275, currenly about 25 years old
      • Alysanne's 9 year old daughter born about 291
      • Alysanne's 2 year old son born abour 297/298
    • Lyra Mormont: 277-288, is with Maege currently in story, so old enough to be around war, lets say late 270s, so early 20s
    • Jorelle Mormont: 278-289, also with Maege so old enough, so early 280s, late teens maybe 20 right now 

**So if we go on these ages Maege had Jorelle when she was roughly 40, give or take.  Also, @Danelle you don't think Jorah really cared too much about an heir as he was caught up trying to make Lynesse happy or what not, but don't forget that Jorah was married before Lynesse to a Glover woman for 10 years and she died after her 3rd miscarriage.  So we know he wanted an heir at some point.  Also, to those who ask why he wouldn't mention this to Dany, did he mention his first wife and all her miscarriages? (i dont have a book in front of me so not sure when exactly this was talked about in the books).

I could believe this theory, but obviously it is still possible that Maege is Lyanna's real mom.  I guess the Old Bear's parents could have had her 20 or more years after Jeor.  

 

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5 hours ago, Kevin Brightflame said:

 

**So if we go on these ages Maege had Jorelle when she was roughly 40, give or take.  Also, @Danelle you don't think Jorah really cared too much about an heir as he was caught up trying to make Lynesse happy or what not, but don't forget that Jorah was married before Lynesse to a Glover woman for 10 years and she died after her 3rd miscarriage.  So we know he wanted an heir at some point.  Also, to those who ask why he wouldn't mention this to Dany, did he mention his first wife and all her miscarriages? (i dont have a book in front of me so not sure when exactly this was talked about in the books).

 

 

No, not really.

You see, when it comes to Lynesse we mainly get information about her character from the Mormonts who can be biased against her but Catelyn confirms their view of Lynesse.

Jorah did care for an heir when he was married to the unnamed Glover lady (funny how he doesn't even bother to name her, when a writer such as GRRM who has given us names for characters with minimum impact in the books, has Jorah speaking of his dead wife as if she was of little importance and doesn't even give us a name, this suggests how little she meant to him).

Quote

"Still, the island suited me well enough, and I never lacked for women. I had my share of fishwives and crofter's daughters, before and after I was wed. I married young, to a bride of my father's choosing, Glover of Deepwood Motte. Ten years we were wed, or near enough as makes no matter. She was a plain-faced woman, but not unkind. I suppose I came to love her after a fashion, though our relations were dutiful rather than passionate. Three times she miscarried while trying to give me an heir. The last time she never recovered. She died not long after."

  • Jorah had affairs with women who lived at the Bear Island
  • Jeor chose his wife, when Jorah was young
  • Jorah did spent a lot of time with his wife but he cannot exactly say how much, because he didn't care
  • He was unfaithful to his Glover wife
  • She was not pretty but she tolerated his behaviour
  • Their relationship was dull, he did not hate or mistreated her and he did his duty. Duty in that case means that he wanted an heir, his wife unfortunately miscarried and then died.

Note that he describes their relationship focused on their duty, not founded on passion. It was Lynesse that he was passionate for and he did everything to please her, to the extent that he brought shame to his father.

Quote

"I have done things I am not proud of, things that brought shame onto my House and my father's name … but to kill your own sire? How could any man do that?"

 The part when he tells Dany about Lynesse  and the unnamed Glover lady is at Dany's first chapter in COK. 

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I feel like going into a basic lesson on the female reproductive system would do some good to address some of these responses... But I'll refrain.

I don't really buy that she was trying to preserve her boobs because she was already married; who was she going to flash her teets to on bear island? If anything, it would have been more realistic to hear that her looks deteriorated from her time on the island. There's not a whole lot of motivation to preen and prune when you're in the middle of nowhere... The Westerosi equivalent of wearing stretch pants and eating bonbons everyday. But we're led to believe this is not the case.

Regardless, up until Jorah sold men into slavery she was stuck. She only found a way out when they fled to Essos. By all the laws and customs of the land, she was his property and belonged on Bear Island.

In addition, even if Jorah's purpose in life was to make her happy, it seems a little silly to me that he wouldn't insist on "claiming his rights" as a husband in the martial bed from time to time... or "doing his duty" in birthing an heir. Beauty and good looks are really just mechanisms to promote reproduction, and we've hardly heard him mention anything positive about her personality. 

It does bring in some questions about:

  1. Her fertility; maybe that's why her father was so willing to ship her off to bear island?
  2. Was she sipping on the tansy tea to make sure that her womb didn't quicken?

If she could have found a way to hide her pregnancy from Jorah I could believe in theory that Lyanna's mom.

Anyways, I wanted to mention the real gem of this thread (for me): the connection between Tormund and Maege! I thought this thread was gonna be about who the hell fathered all of Maege's children... Tormund is officially my favorite theory on that.

 

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8 hours ago, Traverys said:

<snip>

Anyways, I wanted to mention the real gem of this thread (for me): the connection between Tormund and Maege! I thought this thread was gonna be about who the hell fathered all of Maege's children... Tormund is officially my favorite theory on that.

 

I suppose it could kind of explain how Tormund is seemingly fluent in the Common Tongue.

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1 hour ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I suppose it could kind of explain how Tormund is seemingly fluent in the Common Tongue.

And his story about having sex with a female "bear." Even though he's my favorite member (Har!) of the Free Folk, we don't know too much about him. I think the more Southern Free Folk (e.g., Craster) know the common tongue, but the Old Tongue becomes more dominant as you go further North (e.g., Thenns). I don't have a quote on hand to support that though. 

Back to Maege, it's also said that Maege lays with bears. But I think it's safe to assume that they say this about her because (1) her daughters are fierce warriors, and (2) she hasn't officially acknowledged a father or fathers. It's probably a stretch that Tormund is the father... He is a raider, so he would have opportunities to sail the Bay of Seals down to Bear Island. But, in the end, I'll just admit that I like the theory instead of trying to rationalize it so there. Har!

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