Arya, Lemon cakes & the girl she remembers

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

I do agree with what the lemon cakes represent and there is a push and pull between the Alayne persona and Sansa.  Alayne is at first something Petyr invented, but Sansa has mostly fleshed out the persona herself.  Giving herself qualities that have been beneficial to her self-esteem and confidence has something that has been sorely needed.  I would also point out her main motivation for sticking so closely to being Alayne is because she's under threat of losing her head if she's unmasked.  She's thought this repeatedly and it terrifies her.  It's not like she's really in a position to have much of choice about it.  She has said she has no where else to go.  I don't really begrudge her enjoying a little bit of the feast, dancing, and lemon cakes since she's been imprisoned in King's Landing and in the cold, quiet, spiritually disconnected Eyrie.  She's carving out a little life for herself and making the best of it.  Finally getting some female peers to befriend.  Getting her self confidence and maturity.  If you read TWOW chapter, her Stark-related thoughts are many.  She knows exactly who she is.  There's no confusion about it.  

I do still think there are still complicated feelings toward Petyr and it's not because she's truly his sidekick and shares his values.  It's about the grooming process of sexual abuse and the lemon cake in TWOW shows that.

Spoiler

The fact that the lemon cake in question is a giant phallic symbol from Petyr to Sansa.

If you look at the list of grooming tactics sexual predators use on their victims, Petyr could check every box in order and it serves to create confusion and self-blame in the thoughts of the victim to keep them compliant.

Something we should keep in mind about Sansa’s POV is that while she has managed to mostly to resist her abusers in her mind and heart, she has still internalized some of the abusive language.  Joffrey and Cersei have repeatedly called her stupid for so long that her self-esteem has been shredded.  She has come to doubt her own perceptions and instincts.  While others have tried to sexually assault her directly, Petyr’s abuse is far more insidious.  This is exactly how it works:  Targeting her.  Gaining her trust through assessing her vulnerabilities to find the best way to engage her.  He uses Dontos as her “Florian” knowing she will respond to this.  While others call her stupid, Petyr repeatedly calls her “clever.”  Isolating her, creating secrecy around their relationship, implicating her in his crimes and lies, and burdening her with shame and guilt to keep her compliant and dependent upon him.  The last part of the grooming process is to initiate the sexual relationship, which she is clearly uncomfortable with but sees no means of escape.  She does try to keep emphasizing to him that she is his daughter.  The dutiful daughter who only gives chaste kisses on the cheek.  If she can play up the daughter it serves as a shield from seeing her as a lover.  But that's not working anymore.  When he reveals his plan about the betrothal to Harry, he demands another unchaste kiss from her in exchange for giving her a handsome young husband, Winterfell, and the Eyrie (which she doesn't want).  It's clearly implied that Petyr expects a sexual relationship with her after the wedding when her virginity isn't necessary anymore.  A major part of why victims don't expose their abusers is because of the victim blaming they receive for being implicated in their own abuse.  We are still talking about a 11-13 girl here who has been raised to be overly people-pleasing, to disregard her own instincts to not offend.  It's so much more complicated than "oh there goes that Sansa in lala-land again."  Not saying anyone did that here, it's just so common.

I know she has praised Petyr's fearlessness and how he deftly handles challenges, but by comparison to her own life of living in near constant fear, being helpless, and believing herself stupid it must seem pretty good to be untouchable, smart, and fearless. 

I fully understand Sansa's faults, but I don't believe she truly has trouble anymore distinguishing fantasy from reality.  But she is trying to cope with reality in ways that involve some fantasy.  I don't see this as necessarily a totally bad thing.  It was taken too far before with total self-delusion.  That was the deconstruction.  The reconstruction is that fantasy can be used in positive way, to give us optimism imagining the way thing could be.  We all are fantasy fans to a degree and we do need our escapism at times to deal with reality better.  George has certainly described in his own life using fantasy to escape some of his reality.          

[zandru]

18 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

It's about the grooming process of sexual abuse

Good catch! I hadn't been aware of that, but you flesh out the details extremely well. Petyr, of course, has had a lot of experience in manipulation, and of women in particular, with his many brothels. The guy talks about his "love" for Catelyn, but I think it long ago metamorphosed into just a desire to hurt Cat, to pay her back for rejecting him, for letting her betrothed humiliate and injure him. How else to explain how Littlefinger loved to brag to all of King's Landing about how he'd popped Catelyn Stark's cherry and dimwitted Lord Eddard never knew he'd been cheated? (Even though it never happened - and, even if Littlefinger actually believed this, no decent man would do that to a woman, particularly if he "loved" her.)

So now he's got Cat's young proxy to revenge himself upon, and it's Littlefinger who is the older, more experienced one. Getting her beloved husband Ned killed, along with all his men in King's Landing and ultimately the entire House of Stark was not enough for him. He's a sociopath indeed.

By contrast, Arya has merely been repeatedly threatened by crude remarks from cruder men. Which she certainly has had the resources to deal with.

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

My English is not good, so I can't really understand what you are saying here. you think she is delusional? or she trusts him?

No problem -- it's good that you ask for clarification if you don't understand something!

The point was made by some contributors in this discussion that Sansa like Arya can separate the truth from the lie in her mind -- which I think we all agree is necessary if someone is to control the lies they are telling effectively.  I however disagreed with this assessment of Sansa.  Above, Pain Killer Jane highlighted that Sansa 'merges' the truth with the lie vs. Arya who separates them strictly by 'compartmentalizing', with which I agree.  Moreover, I don't think Sansa is in conscious control of choosing what is merged with what.  Basically, I think Sansa's boundaries are fuzzy -- including the boundary between Sansa and Alayne, the boundary between Sansa and Littlefinger, the boundary between the truth and the lie, the boundary between waking and sleeping, the boundary between right and wrong, etc. -- and therefore she is less in control of herself than Arya.  I then tried to illustrate this point with reference to a striking passage which I'll parse for you again:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

"Lord Robert mislikes strangers, you know that, and there will be drinking, noise . . . music. Music frightens him."

"Music soothes him," she corrected, "the high harp especially. It's singing he can't abide, since Marillion killed his mother." Alayne had told the lie so many times that she remembered it that way more oft than not;

So, here the 'lie' that Alayne has repeated to herself and others 'so many times' is the lie that Petyr has advised her to tell 'for her own benefit' (really his benefit), namely that it was Marillion who was responsible for killing Lysa.  Even though Sansa knows, deep-down, that it was Petyr not Marillion who murdered her aunt in cold blood, since she's the only living witness to the murder, she by going along with the lie has almost hoodwinked herself into believing that the man who was scapegoated for the murder, and therefore a collateral victim in the affair (= Marillion), was instead really the murderer, instead of the man she goes on living with, obeying and calling 'father' (= Petyr).  It's like she's brainwashing herself into believing this 'sanitised' version of reality that enables her to go on being Petyr's 'daughter-wife' without feeling bad about it.  This attitude is what's called 'bad faith.'  While I wouldn't call her 'delusional,' since she's not psychotic, I don't believe she's seeing the situation clearly.  Let's call it a state of denial.  By preserving this rotten status quo, she is not 'playing the game'; she is cowering in the corner, pretending to be dead, to not alarm the predator.  In response to being traumatized, she has gone along with this farce as a kind of survival mechanism.  But as Joseph Goebbels and Michael Jackson have warned us, told often enough 'the lie becomes the truth.'  

Quote

the other seemed no more than a bad dream that sometimes troubled her sleep.

'The other' referred to in this sentence is opposed to 'the lie' or 'that way' of the preceding clause. Since she is deceiving herself by 'remembering it that way' (the 'sanitized version of reality' in which Marillion not Petyr is the bad guy), we may interpret 'the other way' or 'the other' referenced to be 'the true way' or 'the truth' respectively.  

Now, look at how the truth is described, so that we may gain insight into how Sansa feels about truth:

'the other' -- therefore, something strange, alien, unfamiliar, with the implication this might be something hostile to the self and therefore rejected (just as the 'Others' are rejected by the realm)

'a bad dream' -- something threatening, disturbing, uncomfortable, frightening, unreal (as with a nightmare, it's something one desires to wake up from, something one wishes would end -- implying that Sansa does not want to dwell in truth for very long)

'troubled her sleep' -- something that prevents her from enjoying her sleep.  This is perhaps the most worrying association of all, since the truth is coupled in Sansa's mind with being awake, and reciprocally lying with being soundly asleep.  Someone who prefers to be asleep rather than awake when a criminal is in the house is probably not someone who is very aware, nor smart!

Then we come to this passage in which Sansa's dilemma (i.e. choosing to be true to herself vs. untrue) is juxtaposed with the solution of sweetsleep:

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"Lord Nestor will have no singers at the feast, only flutes and fiddles for the dancing." What would she do when the music began to play? It was a vexing question, to which her heart and head gave different answers. Sansa loved to dance, but Alayne . . . "

Here, Sansa is torn in her desire to express herself and love of dancing (what her 'heart' says) vs. the necessity of pretending to be Alayne who does not dance (what her 'head' says).  After the ellipsis (...) indicating her confusion, the reader is presented with the solution...

Quote

Just give him a cup of the sweetmilk before we go, and another at the feast, and there should be no trouble."

"Very well." They paused at the foot of the stairs. "But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer."

Because 'sweetmilk' induces sleep, what this is symbolically conveying to the reader is that our POV has chosen to suppress Sansa (because that represents truth and being awake) in favor of Alayne (because that represents the lie and being asleep).  Sweetrobin is taking literal 'sweetsleep'; Sansa is indulging in figurative 'sweetsleep.'

I hope this is more understandable for you.  Feel free to ask if I haven't expressed myself adequately!  

 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

6 minutes ago, zandru said:

The guy talks about his "love" for Catelyn, but I think it long ago metamorphosed into just a desire to hurt Cat, to pay her back for rejecting him, for letting her betrothed humiliate and injure him. How else to explain how Littlefinger loved to brag to all of King's Landing about how he'd popped Catelyn Stark's cherry and dimwitted Lord Eddard never knew he'd been cheated? (Even though it never happened - and, even if Littlefinger actually believed this, no decent man would do that to a woman, particularly if he "loved" her.)

Yes exactly.  He made Catelyn meet him in a whorehouse, basically making her a whore.  This is not love, or just obsession.  This is hate for rejecting him.  Hate for leaving.  Now he has her daughter under his full control, he's sexually abusing her, he's made sure she cannot leave him, AND he's basically pimping her out to get what he wants.  It's soooooo awful on so many levels.  We can't let the sometimes light tone of Sansa's POV narration fool us.  This is honestly some of the longest-running evil going on in the series.  

I don't think we can really discuss Sansa's state of mind and her relationship with lying and dealing with reality without accounting for all this.  Just as Tyrion's POV, his thinking and decisions, are so often directly related to the severe mental, physical, and sexual abuse at the hands of his father and Cersei.  I'm not trying to move this offtopic, but this is really important.  If you didn't know these things about Tyrion, it would paint some of his actions in a much more negative light.  

[Seams]

On 5/18/2017 at 1:21 PM, DutchArya said:

A man was pushing a load of tarts by on a two-wheeled cart; the smells sang of blueberries and lemons and apricots. Her stomach made a hollow rumbly noise. “Could I have one?” she heard herself say. “A lemon, or … or any kind."

[...]

Arya would have given anything for a cup of milk and a lemon cake, but the brown wasn’t so bad. - AGoT - Arya V

~

She drank it down at once. It was very tart, like biting into a lemon. A thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes. No, that was not me, that was only Arya - The Ugly Little Girl, ADwD

 

The girl she remembers is Arya?

As others have already pointed out, the language is deliberately ambiguous about whether Arya is thinking of her self (or former self) or about a separate person, such as Sansa. But the ambiguity itself if important here: I think lemons (cakes for Sansa and usually tarts for Arya) are intended to be a bridge between the two characters. The shared lemon symbolism starts to make more sense if you look at it in the context of other things.

The notion of a shared metaphor as a bridge is a new idea (new for me, at least) in the sense of connecting two character arcs. We are told that Winterfell is built on different levels but connected by bridges. There are indoor stairs and outdoor stairs, walls, hidden passages, towers, solars, bed chambers, the feast hall, gates, doors, gargoyles, ruined places (the Old Keep), hot water flowing between walls, the crypt, secret chambers below the crypt, hot and cold pools, weirwoods, sentinels, the godswood, the wolfswood, etc. I am just starting to consider this, but I think GRRM is using the complex layout in and around Winterfell as a metaphor for the events in the lives of the Stark family members. A symbolic "bridge" would connect events in the lives of two characters, just as bridges or steps connect the various areas within Winterfell. Lemons are a bridge between Arya and Sansa. The sword Needle is a bridge connecting Jon and Arya. Stone is a bridge connecting Sansa and Catelyn. Snow is a bridge connecting all Starks, I suspect.

The lemon "bridge" between Sansa and Arya may have been established in the scene (cited by others in this thread) where Sansa looks forward to lemon cakes and tea with Cersei, but Arya rejects the invitation. It might foreshadow Sansa (and Lady) falling into Cersei's baited trap while Arya keeps the queen at arm's length. Sansa will later accept lemon cakes from the Tyrells at the luncheon where they get her to reveal the truth about Joffrey - trapped yet again.

In relation to lemons, I have to wonder about the blood orange that Arya throws at Sansa at their last breakfast together in King's Landing. It's a different citrus fruit, but must be related to the lemon symbolism - and it is a direct link from Arya to Sansa at a critical turning point in the story. The blood orange is intended as a breakfast food but it becomes a projectile and stains Sansa's dress. The orange is intended for one use, but employed for another. As I've mentioned in other threads, I think it also foreshadows Ned Stark's severed head; the stain on Sansa is that she tells the Lannisters about Ned's plan to leave King's Landing, leading to his arrest and eventual execution.

More examples and longer-term consideration would be needed to determine whether the idea of a linking or bridging metaphor is correct. I'm sure there are similar bridges connecting other characters, not just Starks. Lem Lemoncloak and Dany's memory of the lemon tree would have to be analyzed for their connection to the shared lemons of Arya and Sansa.

One example of another possible bridging metaphor might apply to Sansa and Tyrion, connected because of their marriage. Melon references might be the way the author reminds the reader of the connection between these characters. Lemon and melon are on the wordplay list. A melon is the fake morningstar that Ser Dontos uses to bash Sansa over the head in an attempt to distract Joffrey from a crueler beating. Tyrion arrives and delivers Sansa from the mistreatment she is receiving. Tyrion and Sansa are together at Joffrey's wedding feast when the jousting dwarf act features a fake beheading using a melon inside of a helmet. The latest melon reference I spotted is when Tyrion and Ser Jorah are on their way to the Widow of the Waterfront: they pass two wagons that have collided on a bridge. One of the wagons is carrying melons. I suspect the Widow of the Waterfront is linked to the statue of Alyssa Arryn at the Eyrie and to Littlefinger. So the melons in Tyrion's arc may be a hint that he is about to enter a Sansa-linked part of his story.

I have long suspected that the Kindly Man and Littlefinger are intended to be parallel characters. Both are powerful, intelligent men using young Stark girls for their own purposes. I think Arya is being manipulated and deceived by the Kindly Man in ways similar to the manipulation and grooming of Sansa by Littlefinger. When the author throws in a lemon reference, it might be a hint to think whether Arya is doing something similar to an event from Sansa's story, or vice versa.

For what it's worth, I think two "bridges" to other characters will allow Sansa and Arya to escape from the clutches of Littlefinger and the Kindly Man. For Sansa, it will be the blood-stained cloak of the Hound. For Arya, it will be the sword Needle that she hid behind a loose stone in a stairway leading up from a canal.

[ravenous reader]

33 minutes ago, Seams said:

In relation to lemons, I have to wonder about the blood orange that Arya throws at Sansa at their last breakfast together in King's Landing. It's a different citrus fruit, but must be related to the lemon symbolism - and it is a direct link from Arya to Sansa at a critical turning point in the story. The blood orange is intended as a breakfast food but it becomes a projectile and stains Sansa's dress. The orange is intended for one use, but employed for another. As I've mentioned in other threads, I think it also foreshadows Ned Stark's severed head; the stain on Sansa is that she tells the Lannisters about Ned's plan to leave King's Landing, leading to his arrest and eventual execution.

Great insights, as usual, Seams!  As was mentioned upthread, Sansa accuses Arya of 'spoiling everything' for her.  What has been spoiled for Sansa?  Let's look at the Trident affair which prompted her petulant response:  Arya by taking on Joffrey, and in the process exposing the full spectacle of Joffrey's vindictive depravity, spoiled Sansa's illusion of the 'perfect prince'.  And blood was spilled as a result -- Joffrey's, Mycah's, and most importantly from Sansa's perspective, Lady's blood, something for which Sansa has refused to take any responsibility.  Whether the fruit is a lemon, an orange (bloodorange), melon, peach, or one of Aerys's and Tyrion's 'perilous wildfire fruits', all these juicy fruits are symbols of bloodshed and betrayal, often of those who ought to be closest to one (just look at Renly's peach, which Stannis then subsequently ate after Renly dared him to make a manly move -- i.e. the sticky, messy peach which stains is a metaphor for the kinslaying).  A further connection of the 'sticky sap' involved (which we also find in the Prologue) to bloodshed is provided by Baelish himself, in his injunction that he enjoys the juice but hates the mess; and how imperative it is to 'keep ones hands clean [when one is committing murder].'

In connection with Sansa having facilitated her father's beheading:

 

"Oranges and lemons" say the bells of St. Clement's
"You owe me five farthings" say the bells of St. Martin's
"When will you pay me?" say the bells of Old Bailey
"When I grow rich" say the bells of Shoreditch
"When will that be?" say the bells of Stepney
"I do not know" say the great bells of Bow
"Here comes a candle to light you to bed
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head
Chip chop chip chop - the last man's dead."

 

 

The history and origins of the lyrics - sinister!
The words and lyrics have been much loved by generations of British children. The place names relate to some of the many churches of London and the tune that accompanies the lyrics emulates the sound of the  ringing of the specific church bells. The words of the nursery rhyme are chanted by children as they play the game of 'Oranges and lemons' the end of which culminates in a child being caught between the joined arms of two others, emulating the act of chopping off their head! The reason for the last three lines of lyrics are easily explained. The 'Great Bells of Bow' were used to time the executions at Newgate prison, which for many years were done by means of beheading. The unfortunate victim would await execution on 'Death Row' and was informed by the warder, the night before the execution ' here comes the candle to light you to bed' of their imminent fate and to make their peace with God! The executions commenced when the bells started chiming at nine o'clock in the morning. When the bells stopped chiming  then the executions would be finished until the following day!

From:  http://www.powerfulwords.info/nursery_rhymes/oranges_and_lemons.htm

 

Arya and Mycah were just playing a child's game at the river, when two other children joined in -- and the result was murder, for a great many parties.

Sansa does not want to be smeared in vivid colors of citrus in the true light of day -- she prefers to eat it surreptitiously with a spoon or fork as her father has taught her.  Sweetrobin, our greenseer figure at the Eyrie, however, has other ideas about preserving the illusion of Sansa and Littlefinger's 'unmessy' reality:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Alayne I

He needed a tongue to confess. "Be a good boy and eat your porridge," Alayne pleaded. "Please? For me?"

"I don't want porridge." Robert flung his spoon across the hall. It bounced off a hanging tapestry, and left a smear of porridge upon a white silk moon. "The lord wants eggs!"

"The lord shall eat porridge and be thankful for it," said Petyr's voice, behind them.

Alayne turned, and saw him in the doorway arch with Maester Colemon at his side. "You should heed the Lord Protector, my lord," the maester said. "Yourlord's bannermen are coming up the mountain to pay you homage, so you will need all your strength."

Robert rubbed at his left eye with a knuckle. "Send them away. I don't want them. If they come, I'll make them fly."

 

33 minutes ago, Seams said:

The notion of a shared metaphor as a bridge is a new idea (new for me, at least) in the sense of connecting two character arcs. We are told that Winterfell is built on different levels but connected by bridges. There are indoor stairs and outdoor stairs, walls, hidden passages, towers, solars, bed chambers, gates, doors, gargoyles, ruined places (the Old Keep), hot water flowing between walls, the crypt, secret chambers below the crypt, hot and cold pools, weirwoods, sentinels, the godswood, the wolfswood, etc. I am just starting to consider this, but I think GRRM is using the complex layout in and around Winterfell as a metaphor for the events in the lives of the Stark family members. A symbolic "bridge" would connect events in the lives of two characters, just as bridges or steps connect the various areas within Winterfell. Lemons are a bridge between Arya and Sansa. The sword Needle is a bridge connecting Jon and Arya. Stone is a bridge connecting Sansa and Catelyn. Snow is a bridge connecting all Starks, I suspect.

Love it.  By the way, have you figured out the meaning of the secret bridge between the fourth floor of the bell tower and the second floor of the rookery?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran II

When he got out from under it and scrambled up near the sky, Bran could see all of Winterfell in a glance. He liked the way it looked, spread out beneath him, only birds wheeling over his head while all the life of the castle went on below. Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep, watching it all: the men drilling with wood and steel in the yard, the cooks tending their vegetables in the glass garden, restless dogs running back and forth in the kennels, the silence of the godswood, the girls gossiping beside the washing well. It made him feel like he was lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know.

It taught him Winterfell's secrets too. The builders had not even leveled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery. Bran knew about that. 

 

33 minutes ago, Seams said:

For what it's worth, I think two "bridges" to other characters will allow Sansa and Arya to escape from the clutches of Littlefinger and the Kindly Man. For Sansa, it will be the blood-stained cloak of the Hound. For Arya, it will be the sword Needle that she hid behind a loose stone in a stairway leading up from a canal.

I agree.  Sansa's character is based on that of Queen Elizabeth I.  Despite this hiccup with a shady man/men, she is destined to rule Westeros!

[ravenous reader]

31 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Yes exactly.  He made Catelyn meet him in a whorehouse, basically making her a whore.  This is not love, or just obsession.  This is hate for rejecting him.  Hate for leaving.  Now he has her daughter under his full control, he's sexually abusing her, he's made sure she cannot leave him, AND he's basically pimping her out to get what he wants.  It's soooooo awful on so many levels.  We can't let the sometimes light tone of Sansa's POV narration fool us.  This is honestly some of the longest-running evil going on in the series.  

I don't think we can really discuss Sansa's state of mind and her relationship with lying and dealing with reality without accounting for all this.  Just as Tyrion's POV, his thinking and decisions, are so often directly related to the severe mental, physical, and sexual abuse at the hands of his father and Cersei.  I'm not trying to move this offtopic, but this is really important.  If you didn't know these things about Tyrion, it would paint some of his actions in a much more negative light.  

I was not disputing Sansa's trauma nor Baelish's psychopathy.  I was disputing the idea that she is a conscious 'player'.  Compassion for Sansa's predicament notwithstanding, that is the truth.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

He made Catelyn meet him in a whorehouse, basically making her a whore.  This is not love, or just obsession.  This is hate for rejecting him.  Hate for leaving.  Now he has her daughter under his full control, he's sexually abusing her, he's made sure she cannot leave him, AND he's basically pimping her out to get what he wants.  It's soooooo awful on so many levels.

It's always amazed me that Petyr Baelish is so popular with fans, both books and show.

Note also that, by putting Cat in his brothel, then bringing the honorable, upright decent Lord Eddard Stark there to meet her, he was also degrading Ned (the winner of Catelyn's hand) as well. And, to put the icing on the cake, Baelish has taken Ned's daughter in hand and is training her in Baelish's deceits, lies, subterfuge, tricks, and maneuverings. A slap in the face to Ned, and an inverse to Sansa's romantic "songs"-based beliefs.

Baelish dirties everything he touches. Witness his recounting of Tyrion's previous marriage to Sansa - "when he tired of her, he gave her to his father's men" (quote from memory) Littlefinger has subverted the central tragedy and obsession of Tyrion's life, making the dwarf responsible for his father's vengeful actions and doing it from his own boredom and depravity. And it was largely to separate Sansa from any possible kindly feelings she might feel for her husband - not that she had any; she'd pre-judged Tyrion by his surname and ignored his actions anyway.

I'm not really sure that the Kindly Man can compare in any way to this. I still have difficulty in seeing him (or the Waif) as evil.

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

If you look at the list of grooming tactics sexual predators use on their victims, Petyr could check every box in order and it serves to create confusion and self-blame in the thoughts of the victim to keep them compliant.

Good catch!  I have always regarded Baelish as bad news, but I hadn't realized just how bad.  About marriage; Sansa has one big card to play - Tyrion.  I wouldn't be surprised if she does all she can to remain married simply as a blocking move to avoid an unwanted marriage, or one done with ulterior purpose.  For example, I think Lady Waynwood may suspect who Sansa really is, which is why she allowed the betrothal to Harry the Heir.

 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Good catch! I hadn't been aware of that, but you flesh out the details extremely well. Petyr, of course, has had a lot of experience in manipulation, and of women in particular, with his many brothels.

Yes , he has probably had plenty of practice at this sort of thing.  I wonder if he got some practice with Jeyne Poole, as well as intel on Sansa.  Having your target's closest friend and companion in your control would certainly prove useful.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I have long suspected that the Kindly Man and Littlefinger are intended to be parallel characters. Both are powerful, intelligent men using young Stark girls for their own purposes. I think Arya is being manipulated and deceived by the Kindly Man in ways similar to the manipulation and grooming of Sansa by Littlefinger. When the author throws in a lemon reference, it might be a hint to think whether Arya is doing something similar to an event from Sansa's story, or vice versa.

For what it's worth, I think two "bridges" to other characters will allow Sansa and Arya to escape from the clutches of Littlefinger and the Kindly Man. For Sansa, it will be the blood-stained cloak of the Hound. For Arya, it will be the sword Needle that she hid behind a loose stone in a stairway leading up from a canal.

I too think that the Kindly Man and the FM are lying to and manipulating Arya for their own purposes, which are not in Arya's interest to go along with.  For one thing, I do not believe for a second that they are actually training her to become an assassin, or ever intended to.   And the training she is getting in detecting lies doesn't help in her case, because she is learning to detect falsehoods and their lies are ones of omission and misdirection.  I think that both Sansa and Arya will wake up to the true nature of their "mentors" (simultaneously, perhaps?), and manage to pry themselves loose.  Needle and the cloak could certainly play a part (what did happen to that hairnet, anyway?).

[winter daughter]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I hope this is more understandable for you.  Feel free to ask if I haven't expressed myself adequately!

This is perfectly understandable, thank you so much for the clarification

42 minutes ago, Nevets said:

 I think that both Sansa and Arya will wake up to the true nature of their "mentors" (simultaneously, perhaps?), and manage to pry themselves loose.  Needle and the cloak could certainly play a part (what did happen to that hairnet, anyway?).

 

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

... I would also point out her main motivation for sticking so closely to being Alayne is because she's under threat of losing her head if she's unmasked.  She's thought this repeatedly and it terrifies her.  It's not like she's really in a position to have much of choice about it.  She has said she has no where else to go...

I agree, totally. Sansa is terrified of being brought to justice (underlined by her terror of the 'King's Justice', Illyn Payne). It's the major challenge of this part of her arc - it won't go away.

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...

If you look at the list of grooming tactics sexual predators use on their victims, Petyr could check every box in order and it serves to create confusion and self-blame in the thoughts of the victim to keep them compliant.

...       

A point excellently made. I'd only add that Petyr/Littlefinger is another dual identity. Petyr is capable of human kindness, Littlefinger is not. Littlefinger dominates, but I suspect he was in a 'Petyr' mindset when he made Alayne his daughter, thus restricting opportunities to molest her. Anyway, Sansa sees the split personality, but there's no sign he's aware of it himself. So... split personalities can persist over a lifetime, and this lack of awareness is a trap both girls have to avoid.

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

...

The point was made by some contributors in this discussion that Sansa like Arya can separate the truth from the lie in her mind -- which I think we all agree is necessary if someone is to control the lies they are telling effectively.  I however disagreed with this assessment of Sansa.  Above, Pain Killer Jane highlighted that Sansa 'merges' the truth with the lie vs. Arya who separates them strictly by 'compartmentalizing', with which I agree.  Moreover, I don't think Sansa is in conscious control of choosing what is merged with what.  Basically, I think Sansa's boundaries are fuzzy -- including the boundary between Sansa and Alayne, the boundary between Sansa and Littlefinger, the boundary between the truth and the lie, the boundary between waking and sleeping, the boundary between right and wrong, etc. -- and therefore she is less in control of herself than Arya...

Sansa is making a conscious effort to think Alayne's thoughts, to be Alayne in her heart. This is a dangerous game to play at an age when personality is forming, but it also makes it very difficult to know what she really thinks. Personally, I find it reassuring that she is moulding Alayne to be more like herself with dances and lemoncakes, both real and metaphorical.

Arya's problem is slightly different. The Kindly Man is openly working to obliterate 'Arya Stark' - she knows it, and inwardly resists. But does she remember an Arya Stark that is separate from the Night Wolf? Even Bran struggled with this, and he had expert help. Arya's identity is under pressure both night and day.

@Seams, @ravenous reader  Thanks for the new ideas about fruits etc, especially the lemon/melon thing which I will have to look up. Also sweetmilk flagging up self-deception/unawareness - that's very good. It might extend to other milks too - Arya wishes for milk with a lemoncake. Is she wishing she could forget the horrors and go back to a previous state of innocence and unawareness? It might be so, but she can't.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

54 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Sansa does not want to be smeared in vivid colors of citrus in the true light of day -- she prefers to eat it surreptitiously with a spoon or fork as her father has taught her.  Sweetrobin, our greenseer figure at the Eyrie, however, has other ideas about preserving the illusion of Sansa and Littlefinger's 'unmessy' reality:

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A Feast for Crows - Alayne I

He needed a tongue to confess. "Be a good boy and eat your porridge," Alayne pleaded. "Please? For me?"

"I don't want porridge." Robert flung his spoon across the hall. It bounced off a hanging tapestry, and left a smear of porridge upon a white silk moon. "The lord wants eggs!"

"The lord shall eat porridge and be thankful for it," said Petyr's voice, behind them.

Alayne turned, and saw him in the doorway arch with Maester Colemon at his side. "You should heed the Lord Protector, my lord," the maester said. "Yourlord's bannermen are coming up the mountain to pay you homage, so you will need all your strength."

Robert rubbed at his left eye with a knuckle. "Send them away. I don't want them. If they come, I'll make them fly."

  @ravenous reader  I'm glad you brought this up.  It made me recall I believe @Seams pointing out Maester Colemon  as a co-lemon in another thread.  That was a great catch and I hope I'm crediting it right.  I didn't have time to respond there but I always kept it in the back of my mind.  I don't agree with Sansa's thoughts that Maester Colemon cares about Robert the boy.  I don't think he's a particularly a bad guy, but he's kind of a mealy-mouthed doormat that is clearly intimidated, if not totally afraid of Petyr.  That might have to do with the poisoning of Jon Arryn, which I'm sure he probably knows more about than he lets on.  I think Robert actually has some good instincts about people on many occasions, though it may seem like he's just being petulant and superficial:  He doesn't like Ser Lyn, he doesn't like Nestor Royce for his mole (but Nestor is also in bed with LF), he doesn't like Maddy because of the wart on her eye and she scrubs too hard (but she also loves to eavesdrop and gossip).  Okay, he says he doesn't like Mya Stone, but it's really the smell of the mules and he is afraid of the ride down.  He's not perfect, but he's not bad at judging some things either especially when those first three are working for his stepfather.  

So he really doesn't like Maester Colemon, but for reasons I think he probably can't articulate as a child.  In this scene, Robert gets so upset he has a fit (when Petyr drives home that he is in control here and has total control over SR) and it elicits the discussion of the sweetsleep and specifically using a pinch.  As a maester he should know that this dosage is way, way off for a child.  A pinch is enough to knock a grown man out.  He does appear somewhat uneasy by a pinch, but not really shocked.  He should also know that there's no way Robert should have that high a tolerance level for it if he hasn't been getting it for a long time.  If he doesn't know all this, he's a bad unskilled maester.  If he is, he totally is, he's a bad maester.  He's been complicit in the reckless endangerment of his lord who is a helpless child.  SR does have a right to be angry over his situation.  There's no one advocating for his best interests at this point, not even Sansa.  Colemon's the maester.  He's got the ravens.  Petyr is away a lot.  He could tell someone what's going on.  SR's care was an issue in the Lord's Declarant meeting.  What does he do?  He always tries to get someone else to handle things and counsels obedience to the LP.  

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"I do not! Let my porridge fly!" This time Robert flung the bowl, porridge and honey and all. Petyr Baelish ducked aside nimbly, but Maester Colemon was not so quick. The wooden bowl caught him square in the chest, and its contents exploded upward over his face and shoulders. He yelped in a most unmaesterlike fashion, while Alayne turned to soothe the little lordling, but too late. The fit was on him.  A pitcher of milk went flying as his hand caught it, flailing. When he tried to rise he knocked his chair backwards and fell on top of it. One foot caught Alayne in the belly, so hard it knocked the wind from her. "Oh, gods be good," she heard Petyr say, disgusted.

The milk!  And Sansa gets a kick too for urging him to just eat his porridge and comply.  This kid desperately needs someone to stand up for him.

Quote

Globs of porridge dotted Maester Colemon's face and hair as he knelt over his charge, murmuring soothing words. One gobbet crept slowly down his right cheek, like a lumpy grey-brown tear. It is not so bad a spell as the last one, Alayne thought, trying to be hopeful.

Soothing words are doing nothing to help SR.  Colemon knows what's really going on and it's getting thrown back in his face.  I look at him kind of like an Arys Oakheart.  Does the right thing when it's easy.  Weak-willed when it comes to confrontation.  I think by Alayne II he was trying to secretly ween Robert off the sweetsleep but it didn't work out.  The something "vile" in the milk was really just the absence of the drug or a lesser sweetener like honey.  Again, Maester Colemon gets a chamber pot thrown at him, and spattered with it's contents, which is a pretty strong statement of what Robert thinks of him.  His first instinct is to run to Lothor Brune who would just "drag  him out."  But Lothor goes to Alayne, because she knows how to handle him gently and to bring out his better behavior.  Maester Colemon's suggestion is to drug Robert with dreamwine and strap him to a mule.  This is totally unacceptable.  As a maester, his job is partly to teach Robert how to be a proper lord.  Compare him to Maester Luwin and how he helps Bran fill the role as acting Lord of Winterfell in his brother's absence.  Bran is dignified and does his job well, and he too has a disability.  SR has a serious image problem.  His servants and vassals do not respect him.  His squires snicker at him for being infantile.  I can say this for Sansa, she does care about his dignity and does try to get him to be a proper lord.  She takes control of that situation, telling off the servants and the squires.    

With the decent from the Eyrie, there really isn't a choice.  He needs the sweetsleep or fall off the mountain during a shaking fit.  Here's the thing though.  Colemon is hinting about the dangers of sweetsleep.  He's not speaking plainly with someone who doesn't understand drug addiction or the full picture of the situation.  He's hinting because he doesn't really want to full admit he's known how bad things actually are and he wants someone else to do something about it.  It's kinda sorta doing the "right thing," but not really.  So I don't think Sansa's assessment that Co-lemon "cares about the boy" is actually correct.

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

I was not disputing Sansa's trauma nor Baelish's psychopathy.  I was disputing the idea that she is a conscious 'player'.  Compassion for Sansa's predicament notwithstanding, that is the truth.

I really don't think of her being a player at the present moment either, though I know what George said his intent was for the future.  I don't think being a player is on her radar at all.  All the really wants is home and safety.  What I do think she does now is have an ability to influence people with compassion, and most toward better behavior:  the Hound, Lancel Lannister, and SR.  If she's "playing" at all, it seems to be more with Joffrey and LF to mitigate as much harm as possible.                     

 

[ravenous reader]

12 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I agree, totally. Sansa is terrified of being brought to justice (underlined by her terror of the 'King's Justice', Illyn Payne). It's the major challenge of this part of her arc - it won't go away.

Why is she terrified of justice?  Because her 'rescuer' took pains to frame her for Joffrey's murder, so she would feel helpless to resist his subsequent offer for 'help' and end up trapped in his clutches, with no one to turn to.  It is all very diabolical.

Quote

A point excellently made. I'd only add that Petyr/Littlefinger is another dual identity. Petyr is capable of human kindness, Littlefinger is not.

I don't think 'rescuing' someone from a predicament of your own malicious manufacture counts as 'human kindness.'

Quote

Littlefinger dominates, but I suspect he was in a 'Petyr' mindset when he made Alayne his daughter, thus restricting opportunities to molest her. Anyway, Sansa sees the split personality, but there's no sign he's aware of it himself. So... split personalities can persist over a lifetime, and this lack of awareness is a trap both girls have to avoid.

Sansa is making a conscious effort to think Alayne's thoughts, to be Alayne in her heart. This is a dangerous game to play at an age when personality is forming, but it also makes it very difficult to know what she really thinks. Personally, I find it reassuring that she is moulding Alayne to be more like herself with dances and lemoncakes, both real and metaphorical.

Arya's problem is slightly different. The Kindly Man is openly working to obliterate 'Arya Stark' - she knows it, and inwardly resists. But does she remember an Arya Stark that is separate from the Night Wolf? Even Bran struggled with this, and he had expert help. Arya's identity is under pressure both night and day.

@Seams, @ravenous reader  Thanks for the new ideas about fruits etc, especially the lemon/melon thing which I will have to look up. Also sweetmilk flagging up self-deception/unawareness - that's very good. It might extend to other milks too - Arya wishes for milk with a lemoncake. Is she wishing she could forget the horrors and go back to a previous state of innocence and unawareness? It might be so, but she can't.

Indeed, milk is associated with poisoning and deception; see:

and the follow-on post:

 

[Pain killer Jane]

16 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

In light of 'purging something of herself,' I predict that when she leaves the HOBAW, she leaves via a 'back door'...

Lol. I bet that back door leads into the vaults of the Iron Bank. 

 

16 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

It's easy for Sansa to hold onto identity-Sansa within deception-Alayne because Sansa has always been at home in the lie. She has not really evolved since the Trident -- she has only exchanged one psychopath (Joff) for another, even more dangerous (Petyr).

I don't know if it is easy for her to hold onto her identity as Sansa. Take a look at these instances; 

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......................................

She would need to be brave down below, where the chance of being unmasked was so much greater. Petyr's friends at court had sent him word that the queen had men out looking for the Imp and Sansa Stark. It will mean my head if I am found, she reminded herself as she descended a flight of icy stone steps. I must be Alayne all the time, inside and out.

......................................

 "Look up, not down," she said . . . but that was not possible on the descent. I could close my eyes. The mule knows the way, he has no need of me. But that seemed more something Sansa would have done, that frightened girl. Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave.

-Alayne II, aFfC

These small instances make me think that the merging of Sansa and Alayne is starting to happen. Because even if Sansa makes a distinction between Sansa and Alayne as girl and woman check out this.

Quote

"Is that what passes for courtesy at Heart's Home?" Anya Waynwood's hair was greying and she had crow's-feet around her eyes and loose skin beneath her chin, but there was no mistaking the air of nobility about her. "The girl is young and gently bred, and has suffered enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser."

"My tongue is my concern," Corbray replied. "Your ladyship should take care to mind her own. I have never taken kindly to chastisement, as any number of dead men could tell you."

-Alayne I

A lot of people take that sentence to mean that Lady Waynwood knows that Alayne is really Sansa but as Sansa points out later Sansa was a frightened girl and Alayne is bastard brave because she has suffered enough horrors.  

 

[maudisdottir]

6 hours ago, zandru said:

Note that it says "that was not me, that was Arya". Arya is denying herself to be Arya - or at least, trying to. She is, after all, working to become No One. In this scene, she is actually being prepped to don the face of the ugly girl - she doesn't need to be burdened with recollections of this Westerosi "Arya" character. Although the tart flavor of the potion brings back memories...

When she says it wasn't her, it was "Arya", that doesn't mean she was thinking "Sansa."

Why not? Sansa is the one who is known to love lemon cakes. When does Arya ever say she loves lemon cakes? There's that one quote where she wishes she had one instead of the slop she's eating, but if you were to ask "which character loves lemon cakes?" how many average readers would say "Arya"?

The wording is very clever but I still think most of you are way off with this. The lemons reminded her of Sansa, but then she had to tell herself that no, SHE never had a sister who loved lemon cakes. ARYA was the one who "knew a girl" who loved lemon cakes.

[ravenous reader]

@Blue-Eyed Wolf  Interesting thoughts on 'co-lemon,' lol.  Perhaps the 'Co-' of 'Co-lemon' is supposed to make us think of 'co-conspirator' in the lemonpie-and-sweetmilk conspiracy..?

I'm not worried about Sweetrobin.  Alayne is not the only one in the Eyrie who is 'bastard-strong'.  I believe Sweetrobin is Littlefinger's bastard.  He's a survivor.  And that 'seed is strong'!

5 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Lol. I bet that back door leads into the vaults of the Iron Bank. 

ha ha -- I couldn't have written it better myself!  

[ravenous reader]

2 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

The wording is very clever but I still think most of you are way off with this. The lemons reminded her of Sansa, but then she had to tell herself that no, SHE never had a sister who loved lemon cakes. ARYA was the one who "knew a girl" who loved lemon cakes.

I like your interpretation -- the pathos appeals to me.  Arya is struggling to become no-one and in that moment thinks of her sister, the original 'no-one' personality, because she still loves Sansa, despite all Sansa's bullshit.  Sansa also thinks of Arya while in the Eyrie -- so there's hope.

[zandru]

4 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

When does Arya ever say she loves lemon cakes?

Well, I disagree with you on this one.

21 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Robert the boy

Interesting. I'm not as charitable with you about little Robert's perceptiveness; if he is as perspicacious as you depict him, he sure does a good job of masquerading as a spoiled brat. Moreover, I've read nothing that suggests he's any kind of "greenseer." MHO.

3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

her sister, the original 'no-one' personality,

When did Sansa ever seem like No One to Arya? Sansa was always the ultimate, perfect, ideal girl; the one everyone knew and loved; the one destined to marry the King on the Iron Throne. Sansa was the one who sang and danced and sewed. Sansa was the socialite, the sister who constantly hobnobbed with the lordly and powerful, the annoited knights, and all the rest.

As Arya would remember her, Sansa was anything BUT No One. Sansa's personality only looks that way to those who don't much care for her.

[Pain killer Jane]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

A symbolic "bridge" would connect events in the lives of two characters, just as bridges or steps connect the various areas within Winterfell. Lemons are a bridge between Arya and Sansa. The sword Needle is a bridge connecting Jon and Arya. Stone is a bridge connecting Sansa and Catelyn. Snow is a bridge connecting all Starks, I suspect.

That makes sense with the Jon and Robb bringing Justice to men who murdered children, Rikard Karstark and Jonos Slynt. 

[ravenous reader]

9 minutes ago, zandru said:

When did Sansa ever seem like No One to Arya? Sansa was always the ultimate, perfect, ideal girl; the one everyone knew and loved; the one destined to marry the King on the Iron Throne. Sansa was the one who sang and danced and sewed. Sansa was the socialite, the sister who constantly hobnobbed with the lordly and powerful, the annoited knights, and all the rest.

As Arya would remember her, Sansa was anything BUT No One. Sansa's personality only looks that way to those who don't much care for her.

Before Arya's mask initiation, the 'Kindly Man' cautions her to think carefully about the magnitude of the decision on which she is embarking, which is predicated on giving up ones worldly ties, especially those first-and-foremost to ones family.  As a 'blue falcon' figure (or traitor to her family) as elaborated on my 'Killing Word' thread by @Pain killer Jane, Sansa has arguably been in the business of forsaking her family for much longer than Arya, hence 'no one,' and hence why she lost her identity, as embodied in the sacrifice of her wolf.  Sansa has never had a strong sense of self.  Not having a strong sense of self, however, does not necessarily mean one is not deserving of love.  As I indicated above, many of her siblings still think of Sansa, including Arya and Jon.  I think this is because part of Lady's ghost still lives on in Sansa; and the other wolves and therefore siblings by extension can still sense her.  I've based this on Ghost/Jon's ambiguous tally as to the number of wolves he can sense when south of the Wall (see the 'What is Ghost' thread).