Arya, Lemon cakes & the girl she remembers

[Lord Wraith]

On 5/18/2017 at 1:21 PM, DutchArya said:

A man was pushing a load of tarts by on a two-wheeled cart; the smells sang of blueberries and lemons and apricots. Her stomach made a hollow rumbly noise. “Could I have one?” she heard herself say. “A lemon, or … or any kind."

[...]

Arya would have given anything for a cup of milk and a lemon cake, but the brown wasn’t so bad. - AGoT - Arya V

~

She drank it down at once. It was very tart, like biting into a lemon. A thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes. No, that was not me, that was only Arya - The Ugly Little Girl, ADwD

 

The girl she remembers is Arya?

I'd say yes. She has been through so many identities as this point.

11 hours ago, zandru said:

Good catch! I hadn't been aware of that, but you flesh out the details extremely well. Petyr, of course, has had a lot of experience in manipulation, and of women in particular, with his many brothels. The guy talks about his "love" for Catelyn, but I think it long ago metamorphosed into just a desire to hurt Cat, to pay her back for rejecting him, for letting her betrothed humiliate and injure him. How else to explain how Littlefinger loved to brag to all of King's Landing about how he'd popped Catelyn Stark's cherry and dimwitted Lord Eddard never knew he'd been cheated? (Even though it never happened - and, even if Littlefinger actually believed this, no decent man would do that to a woman, particularly if he "loved" her.)

So now he's got Cat's young proxy to revenge himself upon, and it's Littlefinger who is the older, more experienced one. Getting her beloved husband Ned killed, along with all his men in King's Landing and ultimately the entire House of Stark was not enough for him. He's a sociopath indeed.

By contrast, Arya has merely been repeatedly threatened by crude remarks from cruder men. Which she certainly has had the resources to deal with.

I disagree. Baelish isn't about getting revenge on Cat.

He honestly believes he took Cat's maidenhead which is why he challenged Brandon Stark. It parallel's Robb taking Jeyne's maidenhead because it was the honorable thing to do. Thing is Robb is a King so the Westerlings are happy. Hoster is pissed when Lysa sleeps with Baelish and gets knocked up because Baelish a is poor lord and has nothing to offer.

Also Ned was betrayed because he wanted Stannis on the throne which loses Baelish everything he gained in KL. Not for some pointless revenge.

11 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Yes exactly.  He made Catelyn meet him in a whorehouse, basically making her a whore.  This is not love, or just obsession.  This is hate for rejecting him.  Hate for leaving.  Now he has her daughter under his full control, he's sexually abusing her, he's made sure she cannot leave him, AND he's basically pimping her out to get what he wants.  It's soooooo awful on so many levels.  We can't let the sometimes light tone of Sansa's POV narration fool us.  This is honestly some of the longest-running evil going on in the series.  

I don't think we can really discuss Sansa's state of mind and her relationship with lying and dealing with reality without accounting for all this.  Just as Tyrion's POV, his thinking and decisions, are so often directly related to the severe mental, physical, and sexual abuse at the hands of his father and Cersei.  I'm not trying to move this offtopic, but this is really important.  If you didn't know these things about Tyrion, it would paint some of his actions in a much more negative light.  

Really? Keeping her in the whoreshouse keeps her away from everyone else's spies. Cersei's mostly but also Varys despite the fact he notified Baelish of her arrival. Its not some bizarre power play. Imagine if Cersei knew she had arrived after Bran awoke looking for someone who attempted to kill Bran.

Baelish is doing the same thing everyone else has. Make a political advantageous marriage. 

 

8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I agree, totally. Sansa is terrified of being brought to justice (underlined by her terror of the 'King's Justice', Illyn Payne). It's the major challenge of this part of her arc - it won't go away.

A point excellently made. I'd only add that Petyr/Littlefinger is another dual identity. Petyr is capable of human kindness, Littlefinger is not. Littlefinger dominates, but I suspect he was in a 'Petyr' mindset when he made Alayne his daughter, thus restricting opportunities to molest her. Anyway, Sansa sees the split personality, but there's no sign he's aware of it himself. So... split personalities can persist over a lifetime, and this lack of awareness is a trap both girls have to avoid.

Sansa is making a conscious effort to think Alayne's thoughts, to be Alayne in her heart. This is a dangerous game to play at an age when personality is forming, but it also makes it very difficult to know what she really thinks. Personally, I find it reassuring that she is moulding Alayne to be more like herself with dances and lemoncakes, both real and metaphorical.

@PodTheImpaler wrote a great piece in the Sansa reread project on Baelish's influence on Sansa. There could be up to two masks. Lord Baelish, Littlefinger, and Petyr the boy somewhere under it all.

[ravenous reader]

30 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I disagree. Baelish isn't about getting revenge on Cat.

He honestly believes he took Cat's maidenhead which is why he challenged Brandon Stark. It parallel's Robb taking Jeyne's maidenhead because it was the honorable thing to do

'The most sentimental poster in the forums...'

 

[Lord Wraith]

5 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

'The most sentimental poster in the forums...'

 

So I take it your on the Baelish was simply evil from childhood. Also yes its a reference to Doran and Baelish.

Also GRRM has stated that Baelish believes he had sex with Cat when Lysa raped him after he got blackout drunk. Cat had been betrothed to Brandon since she was 12. It wasn't something just sprung on them at the last moment.

So Baelish thinks he takes Cat's maidenhead then decided to challenge Brandon for her hand. Granted I am saying for honorable reasons but why hasn't he taken any action before now? 

[ravenous reader]

Just now, Lord Wraith said:

So I take it your on the Baelish was simply evil from childhood. Also yes its a reference to Doran and Baelish.

No.  He is not 'evil' -- he is a psychopath... i.e. 'beyond good and evil' -- supremely free!...in a way (hopefully) you cannot imagine...

Just now, Lord Wraith said:

Also GRRM has stated that Baelish believes he had sex with Cat when Lysa raped him after he got blackout drunk. Cat had been betrothed to Brandon since she was 12. It wasn't something just sprung on them at the last moment.

So Baelish thinks he takes Cat's maidenhead then decided to challenge Brandon for her hand. Granted I am saying for honorable reasons but why hasn't he taken any action before now? 

What do you mean?  He got Ned killed. Isn't that enough?

[Lord Wraith]

Just now, ravenous reader said:

What do you mean?  He got Ned killed. Isn't that enough?

I was saying at that point in the story.

Also there is no proof that Baelish talked Joffrey into killing Ned. Just fan speculation. Granted its a fair enough theory but Baelish only betrayed him because he wanted to put Stannis on the throne. He was more than willing to work with him up to that point.

[ravenous reader]

3 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I was saying at that point in the story.

Also there is no proof that Baelish talked Joffrey into killing Ned. Just fan speculation. Granted its a fair enough theory but Baelish only betrayed him because he wanted to put Stannis on the throne. He was more than willing to work with him up to that point.

Yeah...Ain't that the rub... He almost seems reasonable...normal!

Anyway...the only reason Ned went south is because of that poisonous letter.

[Prof. Cecily]

20 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Yeah...Ain't that the rub... He almost seems reasonable...normal!

Anyway...the only reason Ned went south is because of that poisonous letter.

Hmm.

Quote

that poisonous letter

Tucked in the false bottom of the box containing a Myrish lens left in Maester Luwin's study.

Right.

Firstly, it reminds me somewhat of the warning Lady Jessica receives in Dune 

Spoiler

Quote

Filter glass, she thought. To turn a white sun into something softer and more familiar. Who could have built 
such a place? Leto? It would be like him to surprise me with such a gift, but there hasn't been time. 
And he's been busy with more serious problems . 

She recalled the report that many Arrakeen houses were sealed by airlock 
doors and windows to conserve and reclaim interior moisture. Leto had said it 
was a deliberate statement of power and wealth for this house to ignore such 
precautions, its doors and windows being sealed only against the omnipresent 
dust . 

But this room embodied a statement far more significant than the lack of 
waterseals on outer doors. She estimated that this pleasure room used water 
enough to support a thousand persons on Arrakis — possibly more. 

Jessica moved along the window, continuing to stare into the room. The move 
brought into view a metallic surface at table height beside the fountain and she 
glimpsed a white notepad and stylus there partly concealed by an overhanging fan 
leaf. She crossed to the table, noted Hawat ' s daysigns on it, studied a message 
written on the pad: 



"TO THE LADY JESSICA — 
May this place give you as much pleasure as it has given me. Please permit the 
room to convey a lesson we learned from the same teachers: the proximity of a 
desirable thing tempts one to overindulgence. On that path lies danger. 

My kindest wishes, 

MARGOT LADY FENRING" 



Jessica nodded,  remembering that Leto had referred to 
the Emperor's former proxy here as Count  Fenring. But the hidden message of the note demanded 
immediate attention, couched as it was in a way to inform her the writer was 

another Bene Gesserit. A bitter thought touched Jessica in passing: The Count 
married his Lady. 

Even as this thought flicked through her mind, she was bending to seek out 
the hidden message. It had to be there. The visible note contained the code 
phrase every Bene Gesserit not bound by a School Injunction was required to give 
another Bene Gesserit when conditions demanded it: "On that path lies danger." 

Jessica felt the back of the note, rubbed the surface for coded dots. 
Nothing. The edge of the pad came under her seeking fingers. Nothing. She 
replaced the pad where she had found it, feeling a sense of urgency. 

Something in the position of the pad? she wondered. 

But Hawat had been over this room, doubtless had moved the pad. She looked 
at the leaf above the pad. The leaf! She brushed a finger along the under 
surface, along the edge, along the stem. It was there! Her fingers detected the 
subtle coded dots, scanned them in a single passage...

 

But the message to Lady Jessica is placed in such a way as to command her immediate attention.

The letter to Cat is very odd, and at the end of the day Cat misunderstands the message completely.

And Maester Luwin gets a state-of-the-art looking glass.

 

 

[Lord Wraith]

I love the Dune series and hope that new movie will be good. I had never considered that possible parallel beofre. Makes sense since Martin was a big Scifi writer.

Baelish has already made the other players think that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn over the incest since Pycelle let Jon Arryn die. He needs the Starks to counterbalance against the Lannisters. Until he can deal with Stannis.