Kevin Brightflame

House Dayne and the Great Empire of the Dawn

13 posts in this topic

After reading through the WoIaF again recently, I was going through the section that covers the Great Empire of the Dawn and it got me thinking.  If this has been discussed in the passed, my bad but I would love to hear what people think.  Anyways, here it goes: 

The Great Empire of the Dawn was said to end when the Bloodstone Emperor committed the Blood Betrayal/practiced some dark arts and necromancy, etc.  Now every culture has their own story of the Long Night, but when I read through this one the name "Great Empire of the Dawn" and the mention of the Long Night immediately made me think of House Dayne/The Sword of the Morning/Dawn.  The Daynes claim that their ancestry dates back to the Dawn Age, which was before the Long Night, and are potentially some form of proto-Valyrian origin (which I've seen in the forums that some believe the people of the GEotD could be pre-Valyrians).  Given all these references and mentions of the word Dawn, I started to believe that the Daynes were from the GEotD, and a member of this family was the wielder of Lightbringer.

So, lets go back to the Long Night.  A warrior from the GEotD sets out to defeat the evil of this time and forges a sword and names it Lightbringer (bringing some light into the darkness that is the Long Night), he defeats the enemy in the Battle for the Dawn.  What comes after night? dawn/morning. To me this sounds like the sword Dawn, is Lightbringer.  After the Battle for the Dawn and the original wielder of Lightbringer eventually dies, the sword is renamed Dawn and kept in the family.  Why was it renamed you ask?  Because the light was brought back into the world during the Battle for the Dawn, it no longer needs to "bring light", the world has entered the "dawn" of a new age finally.  But this is no ordinary sword, and a legendary warrior bore it, so it is too good to just be passed down lord to lord.  It must be wielded only by someone with the warrior ability to carry on the legacy of its original owner... therefore the person who wields Dawn/Lightbringer will be called the Sword of the Morning since this is the sword that brought the world out of the Long Night and into the dawn/morning of a new age.  

 

What are your thoughts? It may be more plausible that Dawn is Lightbringer rather than the Daynes are from the GEotD, but that empire is "mythical" and the Daynes bloodline has something similar to Valyrian in it going back to the Dawn Age.. Not to mention that unique sword of theirs.

 

 

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Yep. You should listen to the History of Westeros podcast. They have two episodes about House Dayne, and later two on the GEotD that cover this in great detail. 

They also feature LmL, a regular here, whose podcast Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire goes real deep into the Long Night and other related topics. 

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Just now, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

Yep. You should listen to the History of Westeros podcast. They have two episodes about House Dayne, and later two on the GEotD that cover this in great detail. 

They also feature LmL, a regular here, whose podcast Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire goes real deep into the Long Night and other related topics. 

^this

53 minutes ago, Kevin Brightflame said:

After reading through the WoIaF again recently, I was going through the section that covers the Great Empire of the Dawn and it got me thinking.  If this has been discussed in the passed, my bad but I would love to hear what people think.  Anyways, here it goes: 

The Great Empire of the Dawn was said to end when the Bloodstone Emperor committed the Blood Betrayal/practiced some dark arts and necromancy, etc.  Now every culture has their own story of the Long Night, but when I read through this one the name "Great Empire of the Dawn" and the mention of the Long Night immediately made me think of House Dayne/The Sword of the Morning/Dawn.  The Daynes claim that their ancestry dates back to the Dawn Age, which was before the Long Night, and are potentially some form of proto-Valyrian origin (which I've seen in the forums that some believe the people of the GEotD could be pre-Valyrians).  Given all these references and mentions of the word Dawn, I started to believe that the Daynes were from the GEotD, and a member of this family was the wielder of Lightbringer.

So, lets go back to the Long Night.  A warrior from the GEotD sets out to defeat the evil of this time and forges a sword and names it Lightbringer (bringing some light into the darkness that is the Long Night), he defeats the enemy in the Battle for the Dawn.  What comes after night? dawn/morning. To me this sounds like the sword Dawn, is Lightbringer.  After the Battle for the Dawn and the original wielder of Lightbringer eventually dies, the sword is renamed Dawn and kept in the family.  Why was it renamed you ask?  Because the light was brought back into the world during the Battle for the Dawn, it no longer needs to "bring light", the world has entered the "dawn" of a new age finally.  But this is no ordinary sword, and a legendary warrior bore it, so it is too good to just be passed down lord to lord.  It must be wielded only by someone with the warrior ability to carry on the legacy of its original owner... therefore the person who wields Dawn/Lightbringer will be called the Sword of the Morning since this is the sword that brought the world out of the Long Night and into the dawn/morning of a new age.  

 

What are your thoughts? It may be more plausible that Dawn is Lightbringer rather than the Daynes are from the GEotD, but that empire is "mythical" and the Daynes bloodline has something similar to Valyrian in it going back to the Dawn Age.. Not to mention that unique sword of theirs.

 

 

I'd also like to add that I believe the name 'Dorne' comes from the word 'Dawn' / Great Empire of Dawn.

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7 hours ago, Kevin Brightflame said:

<snip>

But this is no ordinary sword, and a legendary warrior bore it, so it is too good to just be passed down lord to lord.  It must be wielded only by someone with the warrior ability to carry on the legacy of its original owner... therefore the person who wields Dawn/Lightbringer will be called the Sword of the Morning since this is the sword that brought the world out of the Long Night and into the dawn/morning of a new age.  

<snip>

Something that has always puzzled me is how is the Sword of the Morning chosen? Who decides who shall wield Dawn?

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1 hour ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Something that has always puzzled me is how is the Sword of the Morning chosen? Who decides who shall wield Dawn?

Quote

The same guy asked about the Daynes and the Sword of the Morning, asking how that title is decided. George said the Sword of the Morning is always a member of House Dayne, someone who is deemed worthy of wielding Dawn as decided within the House, that whoever it is would have to earn the right to wield it.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C92/P90

I think that's about all we know.

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33 minutes ago, Humble Maester said:

I think that's about all we know.

I know the Sword of the Morning has to be in house Dayne, but who decides which member is worthy of the title and sword, and how does this person, or people, decide?

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46 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I know the Sword of the Morning has to be in house Dayne, but who decides which member is worthy of the title and sword, and how does this person, or people, decide?

Maybe there's a really big block of stone...

seriously, probably some kind of ritual combat.  But with this world, the sword itself choosing a wielder is entirely possible.  Maybe the thing lights up in the right hands.

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There's nothing that says the selection of a Sword of the Morning has to be standardized.  Different SotM'ings could have been chosen in different ways.  I think the only underlying requirement is being a superior swordsmen.  The other required traits are subjective and will change depending who's currently in power.  

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14 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I know the Sword of the Morning has to be in house Dayne, but who decides which member is worthy of the title and sword, and how does this person, or people, decide?

We have never been told. Hopefully someone will spill the secrets in the next book.

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There's lots of clues that the Daynes are descended from the Great Empire of the Dawn ("Geodawnians" is the shorthand that I like best as a name for this people).

My favourite is the cluster of clues that comes via House Hightower. It's assumed that the fortress on Battle Isle at the base of the High Tower was a Geodawnian outpost in Westeros, pre-Long Night. The first Hightower (the one who cleared Battle Isle of dragons) was called Uthor. In the real world, Uther is the name of King Arthur's father, and the most famous Dayne in the book is Arthur Dayne. It seems to me that this hints that the Daynes are descended from the Hightowers (metaphorical father-son), who are themselves originally Geodawnians.

Was Uthor himself a Geodawnian though? The only way to know at this stage is if the Hightowers also retain purple eyes or silvery hair.

This has been hotly debated, but it's possible that the Hightowers do have some "Valyrian" looks (in fact, like with the Daynes, these are Geodawnian looks). Unlike for the Daynes, whose purple eyes are widely advertised, the clues for the Hightower features are subtle and sophisticated, like the family itself. Jorah says Dany looks like Lynesse; Alerie has white hair even though she's much to young to have gone gray; Jaehaerys mistakes Alicent for his runaway (Targaryen) daughter. Each of these moments by itself is not much, and there's always a second explanation (Jorah is in love with both women; Alerie went gray really young; Jaehaerys was just senile) - but the moments all hint in the same direction, and are about the same family. In fact, at every point at which a Hightower's looks are described, there is subtle ambiguity that could be read as a clue towards this theory. There are threads that discuss this in more detail. I think it's one of the most carefully planted series of clues by GRRM.

So if you buy that the Hightowers were Geodawnians, and the Daynes are a cadet branch of the Hightowers, then the Daynes are Geodawnians too.

There's also the mysterious family names. The Hightower name is obviously something they adopted after the High Tower was built, so we don't know their original family name. Same with Dayne, which is also a descriptive name - other than the "day" association, in the real world the old English name Dayne means a "worthy" citizen (worthy, like one who wields Dawn must be - hint hint).

The way I see it, Uthor led a rebellious faction of the Geodawnians that defeated the Bloodstone Emperor at Battle Isle, and his son was the "first" Dayne - the one who followed a fallen star. He followed it from Battle Isle /High Tower to the site where Starfall now stands.

It all gets even more complicated if you consider that there were possibly two major battles: one against the BSE and his dragons (at Battle Isle), and the other against the Others (at Winterfell?). Were there two swords that won the day as well? If I remember right, @LmL whose posts and podcasts are great on all things Long Night, thinks that there were two swords - represented by the duality of Dawn and Ice.

As for what makes Dawn special, my theory is that it's got to do with sacrifice. The more we've learnt about Valyrian steel (the black swords that drink the souls of the slain, as per TWOIAF), it seems that they don't just require human sacrifice to make, but that slaying people with them is what enables them to "stay" magic. As if every death by this sword is another sacrifice to it and to its dark magic. If Dawn is different (and it seems to be), and it's wielder must be "worthy" - my suggestion was that the sacrifice that maintains Dawn's magic comes from the wielder himself. He takes an oath to take his own life with his sword at the end - mirroring the huge difference between personal sacrifice for an important cause and sacrificing someone else for power (which is what Valyrian steel is). Unlike for a Valyrian steel sword, killing someone with Dawn doesn't imbue it with magic - it only happens when the sacrifice is personal and willing. That's why only a particularly worthy person can be trusted with Dawn.

Edited by Lord_Pepsi_Cupps

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On 5/20/2017 at 1:12 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

There's lots of clues that the Daynes are descended from the Great Empire of the Dawn ("Geodawnians" is the shorthand that I like best as a name for this people).

My favourite is the cluster of clues that comes via House Hightower. It's assumed that the fortress on Battle Isle at the base of the High Tower was a Geodawnian outpost in Westeros, pre-Long Night. The first Hightower (the one who cleared Battle Isle of dragons) was called Uthor. In the real world, Uther is the name of King Arthur's father, and the most famous Dayne in the book is Arthur Dayne. It seems to me that this hints that the Daynes are descended from the Hightowers (metaphorical father-son), who are themselves originally Geodawnians.

Was Uthor himself a Geodawnian though? The only way to know at this stage is if the Hightowers also retain purple eyes or silvery hair.

This has been hotly debated, but it's possible that the Hightowers do have some "Valyrian" looks (in fact, like with the Daynes, these are Geodawnian looks). Unlike for the Daynes, whose purple eyes are widely advertised, the clues for the Hightower features are subtle and sophisticated, like the family itself. Jorah says Dany looks like Lynesse; Alerie has white hair even though she's much to young to have gone gray; Jaehaerys mistakes Alicent for his runaway (Targaryen) daughter. Each of these moments by itself is not much, and there's always a second explanation (Jorah is in love with both women; Alerie went gray really young; Jaehaerys was just senile) - but the moments all hint in the same direction, and are about the same family. In fact, at every point at which a Hightower's looks are described, there is subtle ambiguity that could be read as a clue towards this theory. There are threads that discuss this in more detail. I think it's one of the most carefully planted series of clues by GRRM.

So if you buy that the Hightowers were Geodawnians, and the Daynes are a cadet branch of the Hightowers, then the Daynes are Geodawnians too.

There's also the mysterious family names. The Hightower name is obviously something they adopted after the High Tower was built, so we don't know their original family name. Same with Dayne, which is also a descriptive name - other than the "day" association, in the real world the old English name Dayne means a "worthy" citizen (worthy, like one who wields Dawn must be - hint hint).

The way I see it, Uthor led a rebellious faction of the Geodawnians that defeated the Bloodstone Emperor at Battle Isle, and his son was the "first" Dayne - the one who followed a fallen star. He followed it from Battle Isle /High Tower to the site where Starfall now stands.

It all gets even more complicated if you consider that there were possibly two major battles: one against the BSE and his dragons (at Battle Isle), and the other against the Others (at Winterfell?). Were there two swords that won the day as well? If I remember right, @LmL whose posts and podcasts are great on all things Long Night, thinks that there were two swords - represented by the duality of Dawn and Ice.

As for what makes Dawn special, my theory is that it's got to do with sacrifice. The more we've learnt about Valyrian steel (the black swords that drink the souls of the slain, as per TWOIAF), it seems that they don't just require human sacrifice to make, but that slaying people with them is what enables them to "stay" magic. As if every death by this sword is another sacrifice to it and to its dark magic. If Dawn is different (and it seems to be), and it's wielder must be "worthy" - my suggestion was that the sacrifice that maintains Dawn's magic comes from the wielder himself. He takes an oath to take his own life with his sword at the end - mirroring the huge difference between personal sacrifice for an important cause and sacrificing someone else for power (which is what Valyrian steel is). Unlike for a Valyrian steel sword, killing someone with Dawn doesn't imbue it with magic - it only happens when the sacrifice is personal and willing. That's why only a particularly worthy person can be trusted with Dawn.

First thanks for summoning @LmL he is the resident expert in the GEotD in my opinion.

I agree that both Hightower and Dayne like come from the GEotD, could be more but definitely those two. Also remember there were dragons in Westeros before the Targaryens, hence wouldn't there be dragonlords of some kind?

I have a slightly different take on Dawn vs Valyrian Steel. They are so comparable it hurts. What if Dawn was made via willing sacrifice aka Nissa Nissa, making it Lightbringer. Most Valyrian Steel was probably made by sacrificed slaves, aka unwilling sacrifices.

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On 5/20/2017 at 1:12 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

There's lots of clues that the Daynes are descended from the Great Empire of the Dawn ("Geodawnians" is the shorthand that I like best as a name for this people).

My favourite is the cluster of clues that comes via House Hightower. It's assumed that the fortress on Battle Isle at the base of the High Tower was a Geodawnian outpost in Westeros, pre-Long Night. The first Hightower (the one who cleared Battle Isle of dragons) was called Uthor. In the real world, Uther is the name of King Arthur's father, and the most famous Dayne in the book is Arthur Dayne. It seems to me that this hints that the Daynes are descended from the Hightowers (metaphorical father-son), who are themselves originally Geodawnians.

Was Uthor himself a Geodawnian though? The only way to know at this stage is if the Hightowers also retain purple eyes or silvery hair.

This has been hotly debated, but it's possible that the Hightowers do have some "Valyrian" looks (in fact, like with the Daynes, these are Geodawnian looks). Unlike for the Daynes, whose purple eyes are widely advertised, the clues for the Hightower features are subtle and sophisticated, like the family itself. Jorah says Dany looks like Lynesse; Alerie has white hair even though she's much to young to have gone gray; Jaehaerys mistakes Alicent for his runaway (Targaryen) daughter. Each of these moments by itself is not much, and there's always a second explanation (Jorah is in love with both women; Alerie went gray really young; Jaehaerys was just senile) - but the moments all hint in the same direction, and are about the same family. In fact, at every point at which a Hightower's looks are described, there is subtle ambiguity that could be read as a clue towards this theory. There are threads that discuss this in more detail. I think it's one of the most carefully planted series of clues by GRRM.

So if you buy that the Hightowers were Geodawnians, and the Daynes are a cadet branch of the Hightowers, then the Daynes are Geodawnians too.

There's also the mysterious family names. The Hightower name is obviously something they adopted after the High Tower was built, so we don't know their original family name. Same with Dayne, which is also a descriptive name - other than the "day" association, in the real world the old English name Dayne means a "worthy" citizen (worthy, like one who wields Dawn must be - hint hint).

The way I see it, Uthor led a rebellious faction of the Geodawnians that defeated the Bloodstone Emperor at Battle Isle, and his son was the "first" Dayne - the one who followed a fallen star. He followed it from Battle Isle /High Tower to the site where Starfall now stands.

It all gets even more complicated if you consider that there were possibly two major battles: one against the BSE and his dragons (at Battle Isle), and the other against the Others (at Winterfell?). Were there two swords that won the day as well? If I remember right, @LmL whose posts and podcasts are great on all things Long Night, thinks that there were two swords - represented by the duality of Dawn and Ice.

As for what makes Dawn special, my theory is that it's got to do with sacrifice. The more we've learnt about Valyrian steel (the black swords that drink the souls of the slain, as per TWOIAF), it seems that they don't just require human sacrifice to make, but that slaying people with them is what enables them to "stay" magic. As if every death by this sword is another sacrifice to it and to its dark magic. If Dawn is different (and it seems to be), and it's wielder must be "worthy" - my suggestion was that the sacrifice that maintains Dawn's magic comes from the wielder himself. He takes an oath to take his own life with his sword at the end - mirroring the huge difference between personal sacrifice for an important cause and sacrificing someone else for power (which is what Valyrian steel is). Unlike for a Valyrian steel sword, killing someone with Dawn doesn't imbue it with magic - it only happens when the sacrifice is personal and willing. That's why only a particularly worthy person can be trusted with Dawn.

Interesting thoughts here. My personal theory is that there was one battle (for the dawn), and it took place at Basttle Isle, and it was the BSE vs the Others. And then the BSE himself could be the ancestor of House Hightower/Dayne.

More specifically, I think the potential reason why there had to be a battle at that geographic location was due to massive snow and ice buildup causing a Battle at Thermopylae-like situation. If the Others wanted to march into Essos, but ice formations funneled their army of wights into Battle Isle, that could explain why the defensive tower would be useful at all. I don't know of any large opposing naval forces being around Westeros back then, so I can't think of another good tactical reason for the tower. Also, the description of the Long Night in TWOIAF says that at least in Essos, the Rhoyne was frozen as far south as where it is joined by the Selhoru, which is at almost the exact same latitude as Battle Isle. It would make sense to me if the fight against the Others was right at the edge of "winter" and if the unknown battle at Battle Isle was that battle.

Edited by 40 Thousand Skeletons

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