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House Dayne and the Great Empire of the Dawn


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38 minutes ago, Traverys said:

Maybe this takes the fun out of the discussion, but I thought I'd share a link. It's larger in scope than your initial questions, but it covers them all and provides ample textual evidence to back it all up. Here's a summary of the firs three (of four) parts (I bolded the more pertinent topics):

Part 1: The Five Forts and Asshai are absolutely massive and ancient. Whichever civilization built them had its core territory encompassing both regions. The old base of the Hightower and the Five Forts are fused stone structures only capable of being built by a civilization with dragons. The only known civilization that could have built all three is the Great Empire of the Dawn.

Part 2: The Great Empire of the Dawn is the most ancient civilization in the world and was founded by the Gemstone Emperors and based in Asshai. These Asshai'i were dragon riders before Valyria and taught them their arts. Dany sees these ancient emperors in her dreams and they look like Valyrians. But the Great Empire of the Dawn was cut down by the terrors of the Long Night and the lands of Asshai have never recovered.

Part 3: The chaos and destruction of the Long Night led to a diaspora out of Asshai. The Valyrians may have been founded by Asshai'i who became the ruling dragon riders of the Freehold. The founders of House Dayne may have been Asshai'i adventurers following a meteor under orders from the Bloodstone Emperor. Asshai'i may have also founded House Hightower and stayed behind to guard the realm. And all three groups are tied together through their appearance which matches the Gemstone Emperors Dany sees in her dream.

Enjoy!

This series is written by a buddy of mine, Sangeli, and the amazing thing about this is that his theory very closely mirrors my own, but he wrote almost all of it before coming across my essays on the topic. When I first read this, I honestly thought he had plagiarized me, but no. He came to the same conclusions by following the same facts, which is stupendous because it's simply corroboration of what I / we are seeing. The clues are all there. In fact, Elio and Linda had theorized that the Daynes share a common ancestor with Valyria long before TWOIAF came out, so even before we had all the GEotD stuff and were able to link them to Dany's vision of gemstone-eyed kingly ghosts with swords of pale fire. 

Sangeli's write up is terrific, and a bit shorter than the 4 hours of podcasting History of Westeros and I did, so I recommend it for anyone looking to get the gist of the theory. 

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27 minutes ago, LmL said:

Well, the legend is that the Daynes forged it. I don't put a lot of stick in that, but it is the official story. What I am saying is that if they DID forge it, the knowledge to do so is the big mystery. It probably came from the east, I am thinking, unless Dawn is original Ice and was not forged like steel is at all, but rather through some entirely magical process we cannot fathom. I am pretty open-minded about it.

 

I didn't realize there was even a 'story' of how Dawn was forged.  Was this in TWOiaF or one of the main books?  Thanks.

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20 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

I didn't realize there was even a 'story' of how Dawn was forged.  Was this in TWOiaF or one of the main books?  Thanks.

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"Was there one who was best of all?"
"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.
He went to sleep with his head full of knights in gleaming armor, fighting with swords that shone like starfire, but when the dream came he was in the godswood again. The smells from the kitchen and the Great Hall were so strong that it was almost as if he had never left the feast. He prowled beneath the trees, his brother close behind him. This night was wildly alive, full of the howling of the man-pack at their play. The sounds made him restless. 
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22 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

I didn't realize there was even a 'story' of how Dawn was forged.  Was this in TWOiaF or one of the main books?  Thanks.

TWOIAF:

Quote

At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers. His descendants ruled over the western mountains for centuries thereafter as Kings of the Torrentine and Lords of Starfall.

AGOT:

Quote

 

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

 

So, the Daynes are said to have followed and found the meteor, and Dawn is said to have been made from that meteor. Ergo, it's implied that the Daynes forged Dawn. But again that's just the story we have - I suspect there is some truth to it but also more to the story.

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Thanks to you too LML.  Yes I was aware of those passages as well, but I didn't draw the implication that the Daynes forged the sword.  I think that's probably because i've always had a bias that the sword was forged by a Stark or proto-Starks.  No evidence for this, just my own personal bias towards the Starks.

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3 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

Thanks to you too LML.  Yes I was aware of those passages as well, but I didn't draw the implication that the Daynes forged the sword.  I think that's probably because i've always had a bias that the sword was forged by a Stark or proto-Starks.  No evidence for this, just my own personal bias towards the Starks.

I think it's a good hunch, for all the reasons I stated above. It just looks like a big piece of glowing ice, no doubt. And since the black swords are so tightly associated with dragons, fire, and darkness, it just seems intuitive to associate Dawn with ice, Others, and luminescence. Also, the Aurora Borealis, which is the 'curtain of light' in Bran's vision which surrounds the heart of winter, translates to "Dawn Lights," so, that may be a thing. That AB is also called "the dancing demon mother of the ice giants" in TWOIAF. 

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On 5/19/2017 at 4:16 AM, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Something that has always puzzled me is how is the Sword of the Morning chosen? Who decides who shall wield Dawn?

We don't know much other than House Dayne only name a Sword of the Morning if he is deemed worthy of the honour. 

On 5/19/2017 at 6:56 AM, SeaWitch said:

Maybe there's a really big block of stone...

seriously, probably some kind of ritual combat.  But with this world, the sword itself choosing a wielder is entirely possible.  Maybe the thing lights up in the right hands.

This is supposition and other statements are made in this thread suggesting that House Dayne deems some of their family members with the title Sword of the Morning based on martial ability and it makes sense, seeing as we are talking about the right to wield a legendary weapon.  But it is also possible that House Dayne looks for other qualities and virtues such as compassion or intellect when choosing who is worthy of wielding  Dawn. 

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17 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

We don't know much other than House Dayne only name a Sword of the Morning if he is deemed worthy of the honour. 

This is supposition and other statements are made in this thread suggesting that House Dayne deems some of their family members with the title Sword of the Morning based on martial ability and it makes sense, seeing as we are talking about the right to wield a legendary weapon.  But it is also possible that House Dayne looks for other qualities and virtues such as compassion or intellect when choosing who is worthy of wielding  Dawn. 

I was half-serious about the block of stone. If Targaryens are fairly fire-resistant, other Valyrian bloodlines might have traits, too. (There was a weird legend about Clan Kerr, that they were all predominantly left-handed, as evidenced by the staircase spiral in their castles...maybe the Sword is always Kerr-handed?)

This is some Arthurian level of chivalric conduct, the perfect, gentle knight.  Some mystic method of choice is entirely possible.

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I thought I would also add that Dawn is most likely metal and not at all likely made of crystal or ice.  It is remarkable in that it is as pale as milk glass (I take that to mean light in colour and possible somewhat translucent) but it is otherwise described as having the the same attributes as Valyrian Steel.  And  I will make the further distinction that I am using the word translucent (semi transparent) as opposed to transparent. 

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A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

Dawn was forged from the heart of a fallen star.  Forging is a process involving heat for shaping and hardening metal.

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The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.

It is unusual in that it is pale which is in contrast to the Valyrian blades which we know to be dark, but otherwise it shares the same properties.  If Dawn were made of crystal or ice that would be one of its famous characteristics.

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