just how Targaryen is Jon?

[StarkofWinterfell]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Pardon, but you say there's barely any evidence that Jon is Lyanna's. Previously you said it will be a shock when it is revealed that Jon is Ashara's... does that mean you've found evidence supporting Ashara as Jon's mum? If so, please share. I've seen the claim many times but have yet to see any evidence to support it. 

I've yet to see any evidence that Jon is Lyanna's

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

I've yet to see any evidence that Jon is Lyanna's

Evidence as in irrefutable proof? I suppose there aren't any. Hints and clues, however, there are shitloads. And zero pointing to Ashara as the mum. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

I've yet to see any evidence that Jon is Lyanna's

Evidence as in irrefutable proof? I suppose there aren't any or we wouldn't be here discussing Jon's parentage. Hints and clues, however, there are shitloads. And zero pointing to Ashara as the mum. 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

I've yet to see any evidence that Jon is Lyanna's

Are you so blind, or is it that you so not wish to see?

[Crona]

I don't think he's supposed to have any targ traits, I don't think he even has any dragon dreams, only thing I can think of is the ice dragon constellation. And I've always attributed his bouts of rage to the wild wolf in him. I'm kind of eager of how westeros would react to him. They'll probably insist he's still Ned's bastard and say he's gone mad

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Einheri said:

Benioff and Weiss later said that during that meeting you asked them who they think Jon Snow's mother was

So indeed, it was only "mother" and not "parentage."

[Einheri]

19 minutes ago, JNR said:

So indeed, it was only "mother" and not "parentage."

Okay, but wouldn't you agree that once someone has found out about the identity of Jon's mother, it’s not that hard to put two and two together and figure out who the father is as well?

[JNR]

8 minutes ago, Einheri said:

wouldn't you agree that once someone has found out about the identity of Jon's mother, it’s not that hard to put two and two together and figure out who the father is as well?

Oh, that's understating it. 

I would not only agree that it's not hard... I would state that that's been happening in the fandom for twenty years now.  The first time anyone mentioned R+L=J as a theory (as far as research has revealed) was 1997.

But what people think they have "figured out" is not necessarily true.  Countless fans, for instance, think it's just an objective fact that GRRM confirmed to D&D who Jon's parents are... but as I've just demonstrated, there is simply no source to support that notion. It's merely an easy, but faulty, conclusion to which the fans jumped.

Here's a little challenge: Using only the canon, demonstrate that Rhaegar and Lyanna were on the same continent at some point during Robert's Rebellion.

[RagnarokKing]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Oh, that's understating it. 

I would not only agree that it's not hard... I would state that that's been happening in the fandom for twenty years now.  The first time anyone mentioned R+L=J as a theory (as far as research has revealed) was 1997.

But what people think they have "figured out" is not necessarily true.  Countless fans, for instance, think it's just an objective fact that GRRM confirmed to D&D who Jon's parents are... but as I've just demonstrated, there is simply no source to support that notion. It's merely an easy, but faulty, conclusion to which the fans jumped.

Here's a little challenge: Using only the canon, demonstrate that Rhaegar and Lyanna were on the same continent at some point during Robert's Rebellion.

Ah yes, just because Lyanna is Jon's mother, which we are basing on the show showing, it does not necessarily mean Rhaegar is his father.  Though it is quite probable that he is, it is still not an absolute certainty.

And the challenge is interesting, because from the canon, we know Rhaegar disappeared, and Lyanna disappeared a while later.  Then Rhaegar reappears when the rebellion is in full swing and fights Robert.  And as for Lyanna, we are only aware of her being at the Tower of Joy when Ned finds her. We really don't know were either was or what they were doing.

In fact in regards to the challenge this is why I have a problem with people assuming the reason, which ever idea they have (kidnapping, prophecy, elopement, etc.) that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna.  Assuming that he did on fact run off with Lyanna, which we don't actually know, it is actually just what everyone believes, we still don't know the reason he did it.

It's ultimately the difference between thinking something is probably true due to how plausible it is, and actually assuming something is true due how plausible it is.

[Graydon Hicks]

7 hours ago, Crona said:

I don't think he's supposed to have any targ traits, I don't think he even has any dragon dreams, only thing I can think of is the ice dragon constellation. And I've always attributed his bouts of rage to the wild wolf in him. I'm kind of eager of how westeros would react to him. They'll probably insist he's still Ned's bastard and say he's gone mad

well, we have seen evidence that the targaryen valyrian traits are genetic recessive. almost any time a targ has a child with a non-valyrian, the the non-valyrian side is much more dominate in the child. so maybe he doesnt have any dragon dreams, but he is warging in his sleep, like all the stark children, and he might even be showing some of his latent greensight as well, so the first men blood is proving stronger in him than his father's valyrian blood? that does lead me to think that it will prove interesting if he comes face to face with a dragon? if he can skinchange into one of them, he might have more control over it than any valyrian has ever had over any dragon.

[Einheri]

11 hours ago, JNR said:

But what people think they have "figured out" is not necessarily true.  Countless fans, for instance, think it's just an objective fact that GRRM confirmed to D&D who Jon's parents are... but as I've just demonstrated, there is simply no source to support that notion. It's merely an easy, but faulty, conclusion to which the fans jumped.

Fine, but I still think it's pretty far-fetched to assume that D&D were not able to figure out that Rhaegar is most likely Jon's dad if they were able to ID Jon's mother, who happens to be Lyanna on the show. And then there is also the fact that HBO released a character relationship infographic that shows Rhaegar as Jon’s dad, so it seems it's pretty much a done deal that this is what we'll be getting in the show at least.

As far as aSoIaF is concerned, Jon's parentage will obviously never be a 100% certainty until the next books have been released, but for the reasons I stated on the previous page, I believe that it's more likely than not that Jon's parents will be the same in both mediums.

[kissdbyfire]

9 hours ago, RagnarokKing said:

Ah yes, just because Lyanna is Jon's mother, which we are basing on the show showing, it does not necessarily mean Rhaegar is his father.  Though it is quite probable that he is, it is still not an absolute certainty.

And the challenge is interesting, because from the canon, we know Rhaegar disappeared, and Lyanna disappeared a while later.  Then Rhaegar reappears when the rebellion is in full swing and fights Robert.  And as for Lyanna, we are only aware of her being at the Tower of Joy when Ned finds her. We really don't know were either was or what they were doing.

In fact in regards to the challenge this is why I have a problem with people assuming the reason, which ever idea they have (kidnapping, prophecy, elopement, etc.) that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna.  Assuming that he did on fact run off with Lyanna, which we don't actually know, it is actually just what everyone believes, we still don't know the reason he did it.

It's ultimately the difference between thinking something is probably true due to how plausible it is, and actually assuming something is true due how plausible it is.

Sorry, but speak for yourself. I am most definitely NOT basing anything on the show. Not Jon's parentage, and not anything else. Thank you. 

[LynnS]

11 hours ago, RagnarokKing said:

And the challenge is interesting, because from the canon, we know Rhaegar disappeared, and Lyanna disappeared a while later.  Then Rhaegar reappears when the rebellion is in full swing and fights Robert.  And as for Lyanna, we are only aware of her being at the Tower of Joy when Ned finds her. We really don't know were either was or what they were doing.

Where is this canon in the books?  This is strictly from the show.  Martin hasn't revealed anything about the tower or whether or not someone was prisoner there.  We don't know yet, where Ned found Lyanna.  All we have is a kind of prophetic dream. 

[JNR]

13 hours ago, RagnarokKing said:

And as for Lyanna, we are only aware of her being at the Tower of Joy when Ned finds her.

And even this is based on Ned's fever dream, which is full of surrealism (example: a storm of rose petals). 

Personally, I suspect RLJ is right about this -- she was at the ToJ -- but a fever dream is not exactly irrefutable evidence for locking it down.

3 hours ago, Einheri said:

I still think it's pretty far-fetched to assume that D&D were not able to figure out that Rhaegar is most likely Jon's dad if they were able to ID Jon's mother, who happens to be Lyanna on the show

I agree; I think that premise certainly would have crossed their minds, but again, what fans (including D&D) "figure out" is not always correct.  

The bottom line remains that GRRM has never said, at any time, that anybody has figured out who Jon's parents are, or that he has told anyone who Jon's parents are.

What he has said... countless times... is that the difference between the show and the books is big and getting huge.  The commonplace fan notion that they must be the same on all important points has never been anything but that -- a fan notion, that GRRM constantly contradicted.

Quote

There have been differences between the novels and the television show since the first episode of season one. And for just as long, I have been talking about the butterfly effect. Small changes lead to larger changes lead to huge changes.

 

[ravenous reader]

13 hours ago, RagnarokKing said:

Lyanna is Jon's mother, which we are basing on the show showing

@LynnS has pointed out the following important passage in which Ned pointedly omits Jon in the list of his children, when Cersei asks him if he loves his children.  Given that Ned doesn't immediately count Jon among his children, only thinking of him in the next thought, the implication is that he at least is not Jon's father, but another relation.  Considering Jon nevertheless closely resembles both Ned and Arya in appearance, we can also conclude that either Jon's mother or father (or both, if you buy into the incest hypothesis, which I don't) is a sibling of Ned's, making Ned the uncle.

Quote

AGOT -- Eddard XII

"My son Bran . . . "

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"

Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."

"No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

"All three are Jaime's," he said. It was not a question.

"Thank the gods."

 

24 minutes ago, JNR said:

And even this is based on Ned's fever dream, which is full of surrealism (example: a storm of rose petals). 

Personally, I suspect RLJ is right about this -- she was at the ToJ -- but a fever dream is not exactly irrefutable evidence for locking it down.

Hi JNR.  I'm curious as to why you believe Lyanna was there, despite no conclusive canonical proof?  You don't think, as @Voice does, that three of the finest kingsguard whose services could better have been employed elsewhere in this crucial time (e.g. on one of the major battlefields) were 'guarding' an 'empty' cairn in the middle of nowhere, and that a pivotal duel was fought without a woman present?  

[Crona]

9 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

well, we have seen evidence that the targaryen valyrian traits are genetic recessive. almost any time a targ has a child with a non-valyrian, the the non-valyrian side is much more dominate in the child. so maybe he doesnt have any dragon dreams, but he is warging in his sleep, like all the stark children, and he might even be showing some of his latent greensight as well, so the first men blood is proving stronger in him than his father's valyrian blood? that does lead me to think that it will prove interesting if he comes face to face with a dragon? if he can skinchange into one of them, he might have more control over it than any valyrian has ever had over any dragon.

That's interesting, but I thought skinchanging has to do with the animal's intelligence? How intelligent are dragons? And how would his targ blood factor in with skin changing, if that is his Stark trait. It doesn't seem like he has been training his skin changing skills either nor does it seem he has much control of Ghost when he wargs him. And how do dragons pick their riders, is it because they can sense targ blood? Or is it similar to dogs and you have to gain their trust? I've always thought it was the latter. 

I guess he would control a dragon,  but I don't know how he's going to do it.

[BeeStark]

On 5/19/2017 at 5:21 PM, purple-eyes said:

Well, maybe in the next book Jon will come back from death with a head of silver hair and purple eyes, plus he suddenly can play harp and sing sweet songs. And yes, he will marry some girl but then run off with horse-faced Arya at some point and create another bastard baby somewhere. 

then everybody will say he is rhaegar's son through and through. 

lol, this tickled me a little

[TMIFairy]

On 19.05.2017 at 11:21 PM, purple-eyes said:

Well, maybe in the next book Jon will come back from death with a head of silver hair and purple eyes, plus he suddenly can play harp and sing sweet songs. And yes, he will marry some girl but then run off with horse-faced Arya at some point and create another bastard baby somewhere. 

then everybody will say he is rhaegar's son through and through. 

I peed myself.

Thank you.

I think I may write a fanfic based around this idea ...

[RagnarokKing]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sorry, but speak for yourself. I am most definitely NOT basing anything on the show. Not Jon's parentage, and not anything else. Thank you. 

I was injecting into the discussion between JNR and Einheri where Einheri explicitly brought up that D&D guessed Jon's mother, and George actually confirming that they got the correct answer, with JNR then bring up that it still doesn't prove anything about Jon's father, even if it is shown that Lyanna is his mother in the show.  But the fact is even that is not yet explicit in the show and D&D could have changed it.  I was merely going along with JNR by showing even if it can be known that Lyanna is Jon's mother, it doesn't automatically show Rhaegar is his father.

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Where is this canon in the books?  This is strictly from the show.  Martin hasn't revealed anything about the tower or whether or not someone was prisoner there.  We don't know yet, where Ned found Lyanna.  All we have is a kind of prophetic dream. 

Touche, I fell into the same trap I pointed out, even checked A Search of Ice and Fire.  Really for all we know Lyanna was a Starfall, or somewhere else.  After all the dream, fever dream I might add, could actually be bringing together two different events and locations together because of some weird association in Eddard's mind.

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

@LynnS has pointed out the following important passage in which Ned pointedly omits Jon in the list of his children, when Cersei asks him if he loves his children.  Given that Ned doesn't immediately count Jon among his children, only thinking of him in the next thought, the implication is that he at least is not Jon's father, but another relation.  Considering Jon nevertheless closely resembles both Ned and Arya in appearance, we can also conclude that either Jon's mother or father (or both, if you buy into the incest hypothesis, which I don't) is a sibling of Ned's, making Ned the uncle.

...

But even that is an implication and not an explicit fact.  It also doesn't prove that Jon is a nephew of Eddard, though that would be a very plausible explanation.  Maybe he is actually Rickard's child and Jon is actually Eddard's brother, whom he claims is his bastard for some unknown reason, this is a not very plausible possibility.  

The point is that we need to be able to separate between what we know, what we think is probably true but accept that we don't actually know it to be true or not, and what we believe is true even though we don't actually know it to be true.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, RagnarokKing said:

I was injecting into the discussion between JNR and Einheri where Einheri explicitly brought up that D&D guessed Jon's mother, and George actually confirming that they got the correct answer, with JNR then bring up that it still doesn't prove anything about Jon's father, even if it is shown that Lyanna is his mother in the show.  But the fact is even that is not yet explicit in the show and D&D could have changed it.  I was merely going along with JNR by showing even if it can be known that Lyanna is Jon's mother, it doesn't automatically show Rhaegar is his father.

I don't think they necessarily guessed it, I think it far more likely that they read it, here or elsewhere. But my reply was only meant to stress the fact that R+L=J is far, far older than the TV show.

 

3 minutes ago, RagnarokKing said:

Touche, I fell into the same trap I pointed out, even checked A Search of Ice and Fire.  Really for all we know Lyanna was a Starfall, or somewhere else.  After all the dream, fever dream I might add, could actually be bringing together two different events and locations together because of some weird association in Eddard's mind.

My main problem with the idea that of Lyanna wasn't at the ToJ is, what are Dayne, Whent and Hightower doing there then? Not just any 3 KG, but the LC and Dayne, by all accounts Rhaegar's best friend?

3 minutes ago, RagnarokKing said:

But even that is an implication and not an explicit fact.  It also doesn't prove that Jon is a nephew of Eddard, though that would be a very plausible explanation.  Maybe he is actually Rickard's child and Jon is actually Eddard's brother, whom he claims is his bastard for some unknown reason, this is a not very plausible possibility.  

I'd have to check the timeline but I don't think that's actually possible at all!

 

3 minutes ago, RagnarokKing said:

The point is that we need to be able to separate between what we know, what we think is probably true but accept that we don't actually know it to be true or not, and what we believe is true even though we don't actually know it to be true.

I agree. But there are way too many ideas thrown around that are simply not possible, and people need to accept that and move on instead of trying to twist logic into a pretzel.