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just how Targaryen is Jon?


Graydon Hicks

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1 hour ago, Graydon Hicks said:

because that friend's baby is also their prince.

A prince, not a king (at least not at the time when Rhaegar set off). There is no wiggling room: either they stayed because they were ordered to, or they were not doing their duty. Their friend's baby is third in line at best, after the king and the said friend himself, and staying with the baby is not fulfilling any spirit of their vows.

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but like i said, its more likely a mix of the two things, their oaths as KG, and their connections as friends. i always feel that in these analysis, we tend to forget that their is a human aspect to these characters, their arent just oaths and vows. they are people, with emotions, friendships, hatreds, and opinions.

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On Invalid Date at 6:57 AM, Einheri said:

Didn't Bittersteel have black hair and purple eyes?

Ah, true. I did forget about him. Him and bloodraven may be an exception to that I suppose, since he was albino. It could be that there was enough non-Valyrian heritage in the Targaryans at that point that the genetics could've been more screwy.

Taking wholly after the Valyrian or not at all seemed to be the case in their earlier days of rule.

 

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On 5/29/2017 at 8:00 AM, ravenous reader said:

Hi JNR.  I'm curious as to why you believe Lyanna was there, despite no conclusive canonical proof?  You don't think, as @Voice does, that three of the finest kingsguard whose services could better have been employed elsewhere in this crucial time (e.g. on one of the major battlefields) were 'guarding' an 'empty' cairn in the middle of nowhere, and that a pivotal duel was fought without a woman present?  ;)

 

While I think it is laughable that Lyanna's presence at the tower would justify the presence of three of the finest kingsguard whose services could better have been employed elsewhere in this crucial time (e.g. on one of the major battlefields) regardless, I cannot take credit for idea that she was not present there... That was @WeaselPie's idea long before it was mine.

His old archived thread is here, (I highly recommend the debate contained in that thread), and we have reopened it here. @Ran was asked to provide evidence that he claims he has, which shows the tower of joy as the place of Lyanna's death. But so far as I know, he has not yet done so.

We know very little about the tower of joy, but what we do know is that

  1. It contained enough stone for 8 cairns
  2. It was manageable enough for Ned to "pull down" himself (after nearly dying in combat with Arthur Dayne)
  3. Rhaegar named it
  4. It was a bitter memory for Ned
  5. Only Howland and Ned lived to ride away from it

So yes. I find it unlikely that Lyanna was giving birth to the prince's son within a structure Ned could pull down himself after nearly dying in combat. Surely we can agree that such is not the sort of place a man places a woman he loves... let alone a pregnant woman carrying his promised prince.

Childbirth is a precarious proposition in Westeros, and such a location would only increase the relative dangers greatly. So unless Lyanna was a prisoner of war by that point, I don't think she was at the tower of joy.

Also, bear in mind that the showdown at the tower of joy makes less sense if the kingsguard are there to guard Lyanna/Jon, not more, as the kingsguard ended up dying in an effort to.... what exactly?

Stop Lyanna's brother/Jon's uncle?

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6 hours ago, Voice said:

 

While I think it is laughable that Lyanna's presence at the tower would justify the presence of three of the finest kingsguard whose services could better have been employed elsewhere in this crucial time (e.g. on one of the major battlefields) regardless, I cannot take credit for idea that she was not present there... That was @WeaselPie's idea long before it was mine.

His old archived thread is here, (I highly recommend the debate contained in that thread), and we have reopened it here. @Ran was asked to provide evidence that he claims he has, which shows the tower of joy as the place of Lyanna's death. But so far as I know, he has not yet done so.

We know very little about the tower of joy, but what we do know is that

  1. It contained enough stone for 8 cairns
  2. It was manageable enough for Ned to "pull down" himself (after nearly dying in combat with Arthur Dayne)
  3. Rhaegar named it
  4. It was a bitter memory for Ned
  5. Only Howland and Ned lived to ride away from it

So yes. I find it unlikely that Lyanna was giving birth to the prince's son within a structure Ned could pull down himself after nearly dying in combat. Surely we can agree that such is not the sort of place a man places a woman he loves... let alone a pregnant woman carrying his promised prince.

Childbirth is a precarious proposition in Westeros, and such a location would only increase the relative dangers greatly. So unless Lyanna was a prisoner of war by that point, I don't think she was at the tower of joy.

Also, bear in mind that the showdown at the tower of joy makes less sense if the kingsguard are there to guard Lyanna/Jon, not more, as the kingsguard ended up dying in an effort to.... what exactly?

Stop Lyanna's brother/Jon's uncle?

Sweetheart -- my favourite cunning linguist -- :wub::

Quote

Septimus: If the margin of his copy of Arithmetica, Fermat wrote that he had discovered a wonderful proof of his theorem but, the margin being too narrow for his purpose, did not have room to write it down. The note was found after his death, and from that day to this --
Thomasina: Oh! I see now! The answer is perfectly obvious! [...] There is no proof, Septimus. The thing that is perfectly obvious is that the note in the margin was a joke to make you all mad. 

-- Tom Stoppard; from 'Arcadia'

But if you still insist -- the way the Tower of Joy was demolished, was with a 'killing word'...

Quote

 Storm of Swords - Bran II

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. "Did he have green dreams like Jojen?"

"No," said Meera, "but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear."

"I wish I could," Bran said plaintively. 

About Lyanna's brother/Jon's uncle -- he was well known to all and sundry to love Robert Baratheon inconceivably irrationally above all others -- thus is the nature of love (not only the red heads are revered; also the raven-headed...;)).

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21 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

But if you still insist -- the way the Tower of Joy was demolished, was with a 'killing word'...

Mayhaps. That doesn't seem an adequate counterargument to Ned's own account:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.

 

21 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

About Lyanna's brother/Jon's uncle -- he was well known to all and sundry to love Robert Baratheon inconceivably irrationally above all others -- thus is the nature of love (not only the red heads are revered; also the raven-headed...;)).

If I read your words, and not the book, this makes sense. But no, in the books we have no reason to assume the kingsguard would need to keep Ned away from Lyanna or her child. The war was over.

And, on Lyanna's deathbed, we hear from her own lips that she still wanted to return home to Winterfell.

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On 6/2/2017 at 2:24 PM, Voice said:

 

While I think it is laughable that Lyanna's presence at the tower would justify the presence of three of the finest kingsguard whose services could better have been employed elsewhere in this crucial time (e.g. on one of the major battlefields) regardless, I cannot take credit for idea that she was not present there... That was @WeaselPie's idea long before it was mine.

His old archived thread is here, (I highly recommend the debate contained in that thread), and we have reopened it here. @Ran was asked to provide evidence that he claims he has, which shows the tower of joy as the place of Lyanna's death. But so far as I know, he has not yet done so.

We know very little about the tower of joy, but what we do know is that

  1. It contained enough stone for 8 cairns
  2. It was manageable enough for Ned to "pull down" himself (after nearly dying in combat with Arthur Dayne)
  3. Rhaegar named it
  4. It was a bitter memory for Ned
  5. Only Howland and Ned lived to ride away from it

So yes. I find it unlikely that Lyanna was giving birth to the prince's son within a structure Ned could pull down himself after nearly dying in combat. Surely we can agree that such is not the sort of place a man places a woman he loves... let alone a pregnant woman carrying his promised prince.

Childbirth is a precarious proposition in Westeros, and such a location would only increase the relative dangers greatly. So unless Lyanna was a prisoner of war by that point, I don't think she was at the tower of joy.

Also, bear in mind that the showdown at the tower of joy makes less sense if the kingsguard are there to guard Lyanna/Jon, not more, as the kingsguard ended up dying in an effort to.... what exactly?

Stop Lyanna's brother/Jon's uncle?

Let's set aside for the moment the evidence Lyanna died at the Tower. I've learned some folks won't accept all available evidence if it contradicts a preexisting assumption. To other things.

Because Ned finds Hightower, Dayne, and Whent at the tower does not mean each has been there the entire time since Rhaegar left. Yes, Rhaegar could have ordered them all to stay there to guard Lyanna. Or he could have ordered some of them to do other things while he left. If your objection is that it would be better to use these men in different ways, then think of ways they could have been used but still be at the tower months later. Would Rhaegar be interested in a mission by Hightower to the Free Cities to try to recruit the Golden Company to bring Blackfyre home and fight with him to save the Iron Throne for the Targaryens? To seek the help of any of the rulers of the Free Cities in the war? To meet with Doran Martell to get him to help more than he was doing? The point being, it isn't a choice between all three men staying at the tower the whole time or some of them being used in the way Ned thought they would. We need more evidence to know what they did. 

The "canon" source tells us more than Howland Reed was there when "they" find Ned holding Lyanna's body. We don't know how many people where at the tower. We only know that from the combat only Ned and Howland walked away. That is the only way Martin's remarks make sense with the information in the books.

Not only did Ned have Howland to help tear down the tower, but he also would have the help of whoever made up the "non-Howland" part of they. He would have had the use of the horses he and his men rode there as well in his labors. And that doesn't even include the use of fire to burn the wooden supports for such a tower. Ned performs no super human feat in tearing down the tower. 

Why stay at an isolated tower on the outskirts of the Prince's Pass? Because it was a place to be hidden away from people who would have used Lyanna for their own purposes, not Rhaegar's, and, perhaps not her own.

Lastly, the Kingsguard have every reason to stop Ned from getting to Lyanna, and even more if a child of Rhaegar's is there with her. While Ned and Robert argue over the corpses of Elia and her children, the KG's almost certainly know it was Ned who commanded the rebel forces who entered the city from the Trident. They know a battle did not take place between Ned and the Lannister forces. The KG and Lyanna have every reason to fear what Ned would do when he arrives at the tower. Will he turn his sister over to her betrothed? Will he turn her son over to Robert's justice for Targaryen children?

 

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36 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Let's set aside for the moment the evidence Lyanna died at the Tower. I've learned some folks won't accept all available evidence if it contradicts a preexisting assumption. To other things.

Because Ned finds Hightower, Dayne, and Whent at the tower does not mean each has been there the entire time since Rhaegar left. Yes, Rhaegar could have ordered them all to stay there to guard Lyanna. Or he could have ordered some of them to do other things while he left. If your objection is that it would be better to use these men in different ways, then think of ways they could have been used but still be at the tower months later. Would Rhaegar be interested in a mission by Hightower to the Free Cities to try to recruit the Golden Company to bring Blackfyre home and fight with him to save the Iron Throne for the Targaryens? To seek the help of any of the rulers of the Free Cities in the war? To meet with Doran Martell to get him to help more than he was doing? The point being, it isn't a choice between all three men staying at the tower the whole time or some of them being used in the way Ned thought they would. We need more evidence to know what they did. 

The "canon" source tells us more than Howland Reed was there when "they" find Ned holding Lyanna's body. We don't know how many people where at the tower. We only know that from the combat only Ned and Howland walked away. That is the only way Martin's remarks make sense with the information in the books.

Not only did Ned have Howland to help tear down the tower, but he also would have the help of whoever made up the "non-Howland" part of they. He would have had the use of the horses he and his men rode there as well in his labors. And that doesn't even include the use of fire to burn the wooden supports for such a tower. Ned performs no super human feat in tearing down the tower. 

Why stay at an isolated tower on the outskirts of the Prince's Pass? Because it was a place to be hidden away from people who would have used Lyanna for their own purposes, not Rhaegar's, and, perhaps not her own.

Lastly, the Kingsguard have every reason to stop Ned from getting to Lyanna, and even more if a child of Rhaegar's is there with her. While Ned and Robert argue over the corpses of Elia and her children, the KG's almost certainly know it was Ned who commanded the rebel forces who entered the city from the Trident. They know a battle did not take place between Ned and the Lannister forces. The KG and Lyanna have every reason to fear what Ned would do when he arrives at the tower. Will he turn his sister over to her betrothed? Will he turn her son over to Robert's justice for Targaryen children?

 

:agree:

I think it's entirely possible and even very likely that not all 3 KG were there the whole time, and I also think Hightower not being with Dayne and Whent before is the most probable scenario. Now, how long since they reunited or even did they meet elsewhere and rode to the ToJ together or did they meet there no one can tell - yet.

We have this bit from the WB:

“As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.”

We know the False Spring lasted "less than two turns"; we know the tourney happened during the False Spring; we also know that "as the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance". 

So, the tourney happens less than 2 months before the end of the year and when Rhaegar "fell upon Lyanna Stark" it was already the new year. But I digresss... I'm more interested in Rhaegar's "half a dozen closest friends and confidants". I take it as a given that Dayne is among them, and I think it's possible that Whent was too. Hightower, though? The other thing that's interesting is that Rhaegar goes somewhere with these blokes and they're gone for almost 2 months before returning to the RL. Which indicates that there's a load of places they could have gone to, but also that he never went to KL or DS or anywhere else.

As to the the last paragraph, I'll add that there's even evidence in the text since we have Lyanna letting go of her fears once Ned makes his promise to her. Yes, we don't know w/  certainty what that specific promise was but chances are it's about keeping Jon safe (and hidden from Robert). 

 

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17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

:agree:

I think it's entirely possible and even very likely that not all 3 KG were there the whole time, and I also think Hightower not being with Dayne and Whent before is the most probable scenario. Now, how long since they reunited or even did they meet elsewhere and rode to the ToJ together or did they meet there no one can tell - yet.

We have this bit from the WB:

“As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.”

We know the False Spring lasted "less than two turns"; we know the tourney happened during the False Spring; we also know that "as the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance". 

So, the tourney happens less than 2 months before the end of the year and when Rhaegar "fell upon Lyanna Stark" it was already the new year. But I digresss... I'm more interested in Rhaegar's "half a dozen closest friends and confidants". I take it as a given that Dayne is among them, and I think it's possible that Whent was too. Hightower, though? The other thing that's interesting is that Rhaegar goes somewhere with these blokes and they're gone for almost 2 months before returning to the RL. Which indicates that there's a load of places they could have gone to, but also that he never went to KL or DS or anywhere else.

As to the the last paragraph, I'll add that there's even evidence in the text since we have Lyanna letting go of her fears once Ned makes his promise to her. Yes, we don't know w/  certainty what that specific promise was but chances are it's about keeping Jon safe (and hidden from Robert). 

 

and likely tywin. i have the feeling that robert might not have brought himself to up and kill children when the decision was actually before him. i think he is too good a man. but since tywin did it, or at least had it done on his command, and presented the bodies to robert afterward, there i can see robert not caring. the deed was done, not like he could have reversed it, or punish the only guy with a nearly untouched standing army on his doorstep. robert was the atypical baratheon, running off with his emotions, never giving either forethought  or afterthought to any action. he wasnt the kind of man to look forward at something, nor was he much to worry over spilled milk for five nights previously, except where lyanna was concerned.

but tywin, now he was stone cold. im not sure if he had elia and the children killed to curry favor with robert, or to simply eliminate possible rivals for the throne. i mean, would it not possible for him to have already predicted that robert would not be able to marry lyanna, expecting he to be either dead or "soiled" by association with rhaegar? i think in his mind, in at least a political sense, lyanna was no longer eligible to be roberts queen, and he was already planning to put cersie in the baratheon bed. so kill the targaryen children was eliminate anything that would challenge any of his coming grandchildren for the throne. not saying thats why he did it, but given what we know about the old lion, and how his mind works, its not out of the ball park.

 

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On 2017. 05. 22. at 3:17 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

For all we know Jon has the singing voice of an angel. If he ever tried to sing along with other Northerners or Watch men he'd try to make his voice deep and manly. He'd never dare to try to hit the high notes like Rhaegar but who knows how Jon would sound if he did? He needs to believe in himself and let the music come from his heart. Then the realm will know him for Rhaegar's son. 

Now, that's a scene I had to play and replay in my mind. ^_^ I'm still trying to decide what he would sing in an angelic voice while perfectly hitting those difficult high notes. 

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well, was lyanna, or any stark, much of a singer? we know hes more stark than targaryen, my original posting was in line with would his more subtle features be in line with rhaegar: the shape of his nose, his chin, the shape of his brow and forehead. maybe body structure, being built along the lean targaryen lines, rather the brawny stark shape. everyone sees ned, or rather lyanna or maybe rickard, in him, but not many look beyond that pale skin and dark hair of the atypical stark. or maybe he actually resembles his grandmother? rickard's wife? we got any info on her?

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now, i did read a fanfic that made some really good observations, both of jon and rhaegar. they may be a fan author's interpretation, but after i read it, i had a hard time disagreeing with it. it even had a couple of really good passages id like to quote as observations of rhaegar.

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As far as I can tell, Jon has very little Targaryen in him, at least for now. Maybe when he is brought back from the dead, more of his Targaryen self will come out, he may even start  singing as beautifully as Rhaegar (joke). 

 

People say Jon is emo like Rhaegar but I think he is emo like Ned. 

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On 5/19/2017 at 5:25 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

since learning who Jon's parents are, i've been wondering just how much does jon resemble his Targaryen relatives? we know that he looks a lot like his uncle Eddard, though i think it might be more a case of Jon resembling his maternal grandfather Rickard a lot, whom Eddard also takes after. just a theory of course. but how much does Jon look like Rhaegar? like, does his facial features, body structuring, personality? damn GRRM for giving us so little on Rhaegar. i think that he might look enough like Rhaegar that if anyone who actually knew the Last Dragon might recognize the boy if they looked past the hair and eye color, the supposed bastardy. jaime might have seen his former prince, if he bothered to look beyond those traits.

I would not use the show to determine what happened in the novels.  HBO and the novels have gone their separate ways.  Jon is Stark all the way.  LIke Brandon + Lyanna = Jon.  His horse face and the fact he can't stick to his vows name him for a Stark.

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On 6/5/2017 at 1:22 PM, Julia H. said:

Now, that's a scene I had to play and replay in my mind. ^_^ I'm still trying to decide what he would sing in an angelic voice while perfectly hitting those difficult high notes. 

Whatever he sings he better bring it because I'm sure Jon Con has (f)Aegon practicing 3 hours a day with the best voice coach money can buy.

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On 6/6/2017 at 5:41 AM, Texas Hold Em said:

I would not use the show to determine what happened in the novels.  HBO and the novels have gone their separate ways.  Jon is Stark all the way.  LIke Brandon + Lyanna = Jon.  His horse face and the fact he can't stick to his vows name him for a Stark.

The Starks don't have a horse face just a long face there is a difference and not keeping vows is not a Stark trait. 

What books are you reading? 

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On 6/4/2017 at 4:21 AM, SFDanny said:

Let's set aside for the moment the evidence Lyanna died at the Tower. I've learned some folks won't accept all available evidence if it contradicts a preexisting assumption. To other things.

To be fair, on this matter, there is no evidence at hand, as of yet. And I cannot speak for the "some folks".

So in speaking only for myself (and mayhaps, on behalf of the First Men ;)), if/when @Ran provides the family tree with places of birth/death from GRRM/his minions that he claimed to have in his possession in WP's thread, I will gladly accept it as actual "available evidence".

Until that happy day, I think you do a disservice to your fellow forum-community members (and to yourself) by discounting educated dissent. It has been demonstrated that certain resources are flawed. (The wiki is fan-generated... the app is wiki-generated... and thus, when one cites the other as reference, we wind up with a non-canonical ouroboros of assumption, speculation, or accidental fan fiction.)

Therefore, it seems only right that such available resources not be given the "Evidence" label.

Skepticism and Dissent are not only welcome in a true discourse, they are the very foundation of it.

 

On 6/4/2017 at 4:21 AM, SFDanny said:

Because Ned finds Hightower, Dayne, and Whent at the tower does not mean each has been there the entire time since Rhaegar left. Yes, Rhaegar could have ordered them all to stay there to guard Lyanna. Or he could have ordered some of them to do other things while he left. If your objection is that it would be better to use these men in different ways, then think of ways they could have been used but still be at the tower months later. Would Rhaegar be interested in a mission by Hightower to the Free Cities to try to recruit the Golden Company to bring Blackfyre home and fight with him to save the Iron Throne for the Targaryens? To seek the help of any of the rulers of the Free Cities in the war? To meet with Doran Martell to get him to help more than he was doing? The point being, it isn't a choice between all three men staying at the tower the whole time or some of them being used in the way Ned thought they would. We need more evidence to know what they did. 

OK...?

I didn't make any arguments otherwise. Mayhaps this part of your comment was directed at someone else?

 

On 6/4/2017 at 4:21 AM, SFDanny said:

The "canon" source tells us more than Howland Reed was there when "they" find Ned holding Lyanna's body.

Hath canon been reduced to quotation marks of irony? Oh how the mighty have fallen. :(

Mayhaps the sword is mightier than the pen after all.

 

On 6/4/2017 at 4:21 AM, SFDanny said:

We don't know how many people where at the tower. We only know that from the combat only Ned and Howland walked away. That is the only way Martin's remarks make sense with the information in the books.

The bold seems an odd usage of absolutes, given that your premise is built upon the assumption that there were noncombatants present at the tower of joy.

Suffice it to say that no, that is not the only way to reconcile the text with GRRM's remarks.

GRRM's remarks are not at all confusing nor misleading if we remove the assumption that the location in which Ned & Lya were found by Howland and the "they" was not the tower of joy.

Not only that, GRRM's fever dream comment might be seen as an explicit warning that this precise assumption is made in error.

 

On 6/4/2017 at 4:21 AM, SFDanny said:

Not only did Ned have Howland to help tear down the tower, but he also would have the help of whoever made up the "non-Howland" part of they. He would have had the use of the horses he and his men rode there as well in his labors. And that doesn't even include the use of fire to burn the wooden supports for such a tower. Ned performs no super human feat in tearing down the tower. 

Assuming there were noncombatants at the tower, yes, it would then be possible But, GRRM wrote the act as Ned's own:

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.

 

On 6/4/2017 at 4:21 AM, SFDanny said:

Why stay at an isolated tower on the outskirts of the Prince's Pass? Because it was a place to be hidden away from people who would have used Lyanna for their own purposes, not Rhaegar's, and, perhaps not her own.

Ah, yes. I've seen this argument before. It doesn't hold water and is easy to dismantle (like the tower long fallen).

First, we know that there were a great number of houses which fought for the dragon, and any one of them might have kept Lyanna abed for Rhaegar. For example, we know that House Martell was fighting for the crown, and Sunspear lies much further from the conflict, enemies, grumpkins and Starks, etc.

Second, if the purpose of sequestering Lyanna was to keep her from Rhaegar's enemies, the tower of joy was a very poor choice. Young Ned couldn't lift Robert's warhammer, but he was able to take the tower of joy with only six men. We are told in the text that it was a tower that was small/weak enough for Ned to pull down, with enough stone for eight cairns. Even if we allow Ned (in addition to his magical crannogman ex machina) a bunch of horses, lots of rope, and a host of noncombatants to assist in the effort, surely you must agree that the tower of joy was not a stronghold by any stretch of the imagination. It was pulled down in a bitter moment for no greater purpose than to make eight piles of rocks.

That isn't a secure location, SFD. And surely Rhaegar was smart enough to know that it wouldn't have been, and that there were far more secure alternatives available. To return to my previous example, Sunspear is a proper castle and far easier to defend from people who would have used Lyanna for their own purposes. (Rhaegar's bff's castle of Starfall would serve this purpose as well... and given the not-yet-fully-explained 'respect' between houses Stark and Dayne, and House Dayne's apparent neutrality during Robert's Rebellion, Starfall seems just as desirable, if not moreso.)

In other words, there's a reason why a siege is a difficult undertaking in ASOIAF. It's because a few men and horses can't just pull down ringwalls and towers when they feel like it. (Hence the construction of siege towers and trebuchets.)

 

On 6/4/2017 at 4:21 AM, SFDanny said:

Lastly, the Kingsguard have every reason to stop Ned from getting to Lyanna, and even more if a child of Rhaegar's is there with her. While Ned and Robert argue over the corpses of Elia and her children, the KG's almost certainly know it was Ned who commanded the rebel forces who entered the city from the Trident. They know a battle did not take place between Ned and the Lannister forces.

While this rebuttal is quite speculative, I agree with the first part of it. Given the fever dream dialogue, it seems likely that the kingsguard knew that the war was over and that their side had lost the contest.

They may have wanted to die while defending Rhaegar's whelp. And I agree that is entirely possible. But of course they make no mention of that purpose, and instead speak as though Aerys is the one true king they are fighting for.

[Given the recent revelation that Aerys removed Rhaegar's children from the line of succession, and the lack of a wedding cloak about Lyanna's shoulders, the notion that the kingsguard were protecting an heir in that tower is simply not a plausible argument. Given that their own words affirm nothing of that sort, I remain comfortable upon my horse made of doubt.]

Not to bitterly pile bloody stones upon a ridge, but, there is another flaw in your logic. You are claiming that the three kingsguard take umbrage with the murder of women and children. ...Of course, Ned is not guilty of committing such atrocities and seems to have a reputation that contradicts such an association, but I can see how the kingsguard might make that association out of allegiance/bias/etc.

Anyway, let us move on to the specific flaw in your rebuttal.

Aerys killed women and children, and all seven members of the kingsguard not only accepted that practice, they protected Aerys while he did so.

Thus, while we have absolutely zero precedent for Aerys' kingsguard protecting women and children, we do have precedent for their protection of a king's right to kill women and children. And, rather than express relief at the fact that they no longer have to defend the king who ordered the deaths of every woman and child in Duskendale, the kingsguard present in Ned's fever dream remain steadfastly loyal to that Mad King; they make their allegiance to him plain.

 

On 6/4/2017 at 4:21 AM, SFDanny said:

The KG and Lyanna have every reason to fear what Ned would do when he arrives at the tower. Will he turn his sister over to her betrothed? Will he turn her son over to Robert's justice for Targaryen children?

Again, so many assumptions in this, but that's ok. I don't mind entertaining them for the purpose of debate. But, I must point out that we have no cause to assume the kg, nor Lyanna, feared Ned. The words of the kingsguard in Ned's fever dream do not sound fearful, nor protective of anyone. Lyanna's words from her bed of blood do beg promises, however. And I think it is completely within the bounds of reason to propose that she pleaded for things that she wanted, and feared the opposite of those desires. She may well have believed that Ned was capable of those opposites, given that she pleaded with him. And if the protection/adoption of Jon Snow was her paramount concern, which I think we both believe, then it certainly stands to reason that she believed Jon might be harmed and that Ned might feel obliged to allow that harm to take place.

Plus, the text explicitly states that Lyanna felt fear:

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

Lyanna was a strong child-woman she-wolf Stark of Winterfell, but nevertheless, with fear in her eyes, she cried when she said, "Promise me, Ned."

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