Graydon Hicks

just how Targaryen is Jon?

145 posts in this topic

Do we know what type of body most stark men have? I think it said somewhere that robb looked the most like a tully because he was more stout or something like that where as jon was wiry muscle. Also it hasn't been officially said that jon is rhegars son in the books. I do think he is but I am just saying.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Thanks.  I've wondered occasionally if GRRM is developing a pattern there, because:

Not to mention:

...among other conspicuous and striking parallels between skinchangers (or possible skinchangers) and their preferred animal.

I noticed that as well, especially between Borroq and his boar. It seems the author is also playing with   undoing typical expectations (or tropes) meaning the "bad guys" always look bad, but in GRRM world it is pretty much the opposite. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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4 hours ago, JNR said:

That's true... though you know what else has a long and narrow face, besides a horse?

A direwolf.

Well played.

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i think most of the stark men are supposed to be kinda brawny. i haven't seen any real description, but being northern first bloods, i think it would seem an appropriate racial trait. and remember that very few people really remark on jon's actual features. sure every one talks about how long-faced arya is, but all i ever really seen used to describe jon is his obvious stark coloring, and since there's almost no one left alive who knew rhaegar well, who would be able to recognise targaryen feature in jon's face? he never really interacted with the royal family in the first book, save for tyrion. and tyrion i dont think ever met rhaegar. ned seems to have made a great deal of effort to keep jon away from robert, cersie, and jaime, and almost encouraged jon to go the wall, albeit reluctantly, since there was likely no one at the wall who knew rhaegar and would recognize his son. and he dies there, then it wont be because of who he is.

and i call rhaegar the last dragon, cause i saw in the World of Ice and Fire that it was a title ascribed to him. he reminded people of the greatest and best of the targaryen kings.

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20 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

but how much does Jon look like Rhaegar? like, does his facial features, body structuring, personality? damn GRRM for giving us so little on Rhaegar. i think that he might look enough like Rhaegar that if anyone who actually knew the Last Dragon might recognize the boy if they looked past the hair and eye color, the supposed bastardy. jaime might have seen his former prince, if he bothered to look beyond those traits.

Why'd you think GRRM made Maester Aemon a blind man?

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7 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

It is actually possible for Jon to be a bastard of Aerys.  However, there is the problem with his looks again.  He has not a single physical feature of a Targaryen.  He has the crude, horsefaced look of the Stark all the way through.

It is actually not, but not because of the looks. Once again: it has never been disputed in any way that Rhaenys was Rhaegar's daughter, even though she looked nothing like him, she looked Dornish. In GRRMth, it is pretty common that kids take after one parent and the traits of the other are not visible.

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In the books who describes Jon as "pretty" or "good looking?"  

Spoiler

I thought him being pretty and good looking was only a show thing.

 

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41 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Why'd you think GRRM made Maester Aemon a blind man?

To be fair, there is a decent chance that Aemon has never met Rhaegar in person. Aemon was born in 198 and Rhaegar was born in 259. 

Aemon went to the wall in 233 and it seems like he never left there, not even when RR happened.  when Rhaegar became an adult, Aemon is already like 80 years old. We never heard that Rhaegar visited the wall in person (if he did, we should have heard about it). 

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

To be fair, there is a decent chance that Aemon has never met Rhaegar in person. Aemon was born in 198 and Rhaegar was born in 259. 

Aemon went to the wall in 233 and it seems like he never left there, not even when RR happened.  when Rhaegar became an adult, Aemon is already like 80 years old. We never heard that Rhaegar visited the wall in person (if he did, we should have heard about it). 

Actually it matters little that he never met Rhaegar personally.

Body language and facial expressions are hereditary, generation after generation. The first thing to compare to is the father ormother, but they have those traits from their father and mother, and so on. I have aunts and a mother claiming that at certain moments I do, say or move or look a certain way that completely reminds them of my grandfather (of my mother's side) and even great-grandfather. I look the spitting image of my mother when she was 30 years younger (her former colleague wanted to use us both for his genetics lecture at college when I was a child; my paternal grandmother was 100% a black and white pic of my mom as a child in costume was a pic of me), still also my father's former colleagues recognize my father in me as well (less obvious at first glance, but from certain angles and when speaking, though I have the deep voice of my mom). And yet older family who knew my maternal grandfather and great-grandfather for most of their lives recognize them in me as well.

Aemon "knows" dragons: he had 3 brothers, some even dark-haired, 3 uncles, nephews and nieces, and at least one Great Bastard. As Jon grows into manhood a non-blind Aemon would have been bound to be startled by Jon staring at something, or striking at someone in the yard, or the way he laughed and inclined his head... stuff like that and be reminded of a beloved brother or uncle.

Edited by sweetsunray

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in fact, i do think that jon reminds aemon of his brothers and relatives. the way the maester talks to jon, gives him advice, opens up to him, i think that even though he cant see jon's face, he hears his voice, the way he speaks, the way his mind works, his personality. im not saying he realizes who jon is, but he can see things in jon that likely come from the targaryen family.

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14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually it matters little that he never met Rhaegar personally.

Body language and facial expressions are hereditary, generation after generation. The first thing to compare to is the father ormother, but they have those traits from their father and mother, and so on. I have aunts and a mother claiming that at certain moments I do, say or move or look a certain way that completely reminds them of my grandfather (of my mother's side) and even great-grandfather. I look the spitting image of my mother when she was 30 years younger (her former colleague wanted to use us both for his genetics lecture at college when I was a child; my paternal grandmother was 100% a black and white pic of my mom as a child in costume was a pic of me), still also my father's former colleagues recognize my father in me as well (less obvious at first glance, but from certain angles and when speaking, though I have the deep voice of my mom). And yet older family who knew my maternal grandfather and great-grandfather for most of their lives recognize them in me as well.

Aemon "knows" dragons: he had 3 brothers, some even dark-haired, 3 uncles, nephews and nieces, and at least one Great Bastard. As Jon grows into manhood a non-blind Aemon would have been bound to be startled by Jon staring at something, or striking at someone in the yard, or the way he laughed and inclined his head... stuff like that and be reminded of a beloved brother or uncle.

you must be kidding me. Tons of people knew Lyanna very well in Winterfell, yet nobody mentioned anything about Jon reminded them of Lyanna. If you say it is because people simply put it on Ned, however Lyanna is not a female version of Ned Stark, she probably has her own unique traits and features (Rhaegar would unlikely fell in crazy love with a female version of plain-looking Ned). why nobody found that? 

 

 

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because ned claimed jon was his bastard. that was one of the protections. who in their right mind could Lord Eddard Stark was even capable of lying? he was the most honorable man in westeros, it was inconceivable. that was why it worked so well. by ned claiming jon, no one had cause to look for lyanna or rhaegar in jon. and the stark in jon is so obvious that everyone would attribute it to him being ned's son. but that doesnt mean ned was still worried that even one person who knew rhaegar got a good look at the boy, they would see the boys father in him. neds own honour, that public and well known fact that he never lied, is what made the lie work so well.

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Posted (edited)

I was just wondering about the statements that no one who meets Jon has seen Rheagar so they cannot compare. What about Alliser Thorne? He is from the Crownland, and fought on Rheagar's side. I would think he has seen Rheagar. 

When Lord Mormont sends Alliser to Kings Landing with the rotting hand, doesn't he say something about Alliser being the best one to send because he is used to court? I may misremember that part. 

But since Alliser was not pardoned, but had the chose of death or the Wall, I imagine he was somewhat high ranking in the Targaryan army, I don't think every knight from a minor lord would be executed or send to the Wall.

 

Just remembered: Harrehal. Rheagar won the turney, he got to hand out the crown of beauty, he song and played his harp at the feast. Anyone there should have gotten a good look at him, and EVERYONE was at Harrenhal. There must have other Northren Lords there.

Edited by LordManderlyAsDragonRider
Harrenhal

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

you must be kidding me. Tons of people knew Lyanna very well in Winterfell, yet nobody mentioned anything about Jon reminded them of Lyanna. If you say it is because people simply put it on Ned, however Lyanna is not a female version of Ned Stark, she probably has her own unique traits and features (Rhaegar would unlikely fell in crazy love with a female version of plain-looking Ned). why nobody found that? 

As @Graydon Hicks already answered: because they linked it to Ned Stark being his father. Hence any trait that might remind them of Lyanna would be explained by Ned Stark being the father, as "Stark" traits. You are treating this as if Lyanna isn't a Stark. Yes, Lyanna might have her own typical peculiarities in body language, which she would have had from either Rickard or her mother, who are Jon's grandparents and Ned's parents.

Also, Ned's plainness imo has more to do with his attitude, rather than his actual objective features. Brandon is cocky, extravert, boisterous. He makes himself stand out and is confident. That alone makes someone attractive in many women's eyes, manly. Ned is shy, preferring to stay in the background, might even slouch, therefore making him appear "plain".

Edited by sweetsunray

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16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Also, Ned's plainness imo has more to do with his attitude, rather than his actual objective features. Brandon is cocky, extravert, boisterous. He makes himself stand out and is confident. That alone makes someone attractive in many women's eyes, manly. Ned is shy, preferring to stay in the background, might even slouch, therefore making him appear "plain".

IIRC, Cat does refer to plainer face. 

The Starks share certain general features (shape of face, colour of hair and eyes). However, individual beauty is defined by rather minor differences - the ratios in the sizes and settings of facial features. It is perfectly possible for Ned, Brandon and Lyanna look very much alike but Ned being plane and the other two dashing. 

 

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20 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

As @Graydon Hicks already answered: because they linked it to Ned Stark being his father. Hence any trait that might remind them of Lyanna would be explained by Ned Stark being the father, as "Stark" traits. You are treating this as if Lyanna isn't a Stark. Yes, Lyanna might have her own typical peculiarities in body language, which she would have had from either Rickard or her mother, who are Jon's grandparents and Ned's parents.

Also, Ned's plainness imo has more to do with his attitude, rather than his actual objective features. Brandon is cocky, extravert, boisterous. He makes himself stand out and is confident. That alone makes someone attractive in many women's eyes, manly. Ned is shy, preferring to stay in the background, might even slouch, therefore making him appear "plain".

a beautiful person is still beautiful even he or she is shy and low key. a plain person is still plain even he or she is cocky and outgoing. Ned is plain because he did not have a handsome face, not because he is shy. 

 

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Just now, Ygrain said:

IIRC, Cat does refer to plainer face. 

The Starks share certain general features (shape of face, colour of hair and eyes). However, individual beauty is defined by rather minor differences - the ratios in the sizes and settings of facial features. It is perfectly possible for Ned, Brandon and Lyanna look very much alike but Ned being plane and the other two dashing. 

 

True up to a point. But likewise can attitude bolster perceived handsomeness of a man. That's why we have the concept of a "beau lait" (handsome ugly man): Jean Paul Belmondo, Serge Gainsbourg, Benicio del Toro, Mick Jagger, Stephen Tyler, Adrian Brody, ... If you don't know these men and just see a picture of them, you wouldn't call them handsome, exactly because they have features that we wouldn't call handsome by itself. And yet they were or are considered handsome and very attractive. Now, I only truly consider Toro and Brody very handsome personally, but "plain" to me means "unremarkable". 

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Posted (edited)

14 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

a beautiful person is still beautiful even he or she is shy and low key. a plain person is still plain even he or she is cocky and outgoing. Ned is plain because he did not have a handsome face, not because he is shy. 

 

Completely disagree. It's no coincidence that the outgoing, cocky Brandon is regarded as "handsome" and shy Ned who doesn't even dare to ask a girl to dance with him is regarded as "plain" in those days. I notice that nobody actually thinks of Ned Stark as plain anymore by the start of aGoT, except for Catelyn who still remembers Brandon. No, by then he's called "cold" and "icy" and having a "lord's face". I'd betcha that there are plenty of women who'd regard Ned Stark a handsome man 15 years later. 

There are plenty of people I can think of that strictly speaking could be regarded as "beautiful" and that I would call "plain", because their features are "unremarkable". This mainly has to do with my preference of seeing personality in a face. And from comments from others I know plenty of people who'd say the same. 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder mostly. And when it comes to "handsomeness" this is evenmore true, because "handsome" is a word loaded with "being attracted" and thinking someone "sexy", which barely has anything to do with "beauty" at all. See the beau lait examples I gave in reply to Ygrain. 

Edited by sweetsunray

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20 hours ago, LordManderlyAsDragonRider said:

I was just wondering about the statements that no one who meets Jon has seen Rheagar so they cannot compare. What about Alliser Thorne? He is from the Crownland, and fought on Rheagar's side. I would think he has seen Rheagar. 

When Lord Mormont sends Alliser to Kings Landing with the rotting hand, doesn't he say something about Alliser being the best one to send because he is used to court? I may misremember that part. 

But since Alliser was not pardoned, but had the chose of death or the Wall, I imagine he was somewhat high ranking in the Targaryan army, I don't think every knight from a minor lord would be executed or send to the Wall.

 

Just remembered: Harrehal. Rheagar won the turney, he got to hand out the crown of beauty, he song and played his harp at the feast. Anyone there should have gotten a good look at him, and EVERYONE was at Harrenhal. There must have other Northren Lords there.

but did allister thorne actually personally know rhaegar? i know he was a targaryen loyalist, but was he a full house lord, was he just a knight. do we know if he actually had any close contact with rhaegar?and we do know that when he looked at jon, all he really saw was a bastard. thats as far as he ever looked at the boy. another example of the lie successfully protecting jon. and while everyone was at harrenhal, that doesnt mean they all "knew "rhaegar. to most people who were at the tourney, all they would be seeing was the prince, the title, not the man. when i say people who knew him personally, i mean folks who would have been in relatively close contact, face to face contact, with him. people like his kingsguard, nobles out outside the guard he would have been friendly with or saw on a regular basis. most of those at the tourney would have only seen the prince, from a goodly distance, by his hair color, or even just by his armor and pennants.

off the top of my head, i can think of 8 people south of the neck who did have close contact with rhaegar: pycelle, varys, barristan, jaime, cersie, tywin, and robert. there might be others but those 8 are for sure. ned seemed to have trying to keep jon out of sight of the royal party, and member jon talked to was tyrion, who i believe was too young have met rhaegar. i know tyrion was born already, so they lived at the same time, but the imp would have been very young, and as the embarrassment of house lannister, tywin would have kept him very much out of sight, so no chance for him to have met rhaegar.

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