Brandon Baratheon

What Lannister twins know about Tywin and Joanna's relationship?

5 posts in this topic

Cersei doesn't remember Joanna with good memories. It is odd she also doesn't like Tywin so much even if she admires him. Cersei's relationship with her parents reminds me Arianne and Doran. Arianne suffered from worsening relationship of parents and she started to love Oberyn as Cersei loved Jaime. Maybe Cersei also witnessed to something about relationship of parents.

Jaime's dream about her mother shows his thinking: Joanna hates Tywin. I don't think that this dream is prophecy so Jaime's dream reflects his childhood.

Is it possible that they learned something about relationship between Aerys and Joanna? 

 

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It's very likely we'll learn more about Joanna's relation to Aerys, given only the last two books revealed tidbits of that past. AFFC had a Jaime (not) dreaming about whether he really knew his father and ADWD has a Daenerys asking Barristan about the father she never knew, learning about Aery's liberties with Joanna. AFFC gave us insight in all three Lannister children's confidence to be the true child of Tywin, but the very same time this confidence is disturbed for the reader.

It now appears like Tywin was unable to see Tyrion as the true clever Lannister he always was, whereas Cersei's perception of herself as lioness of Casterly Rock and Jaime's failure as loyal heir of his house might turn out wrong as well if they are Aery's bastards.

So no, the twins don't seem to suspect anything about their mother's relationship to the king. But since we're promised to see Casterly Rock in TWOW where all three, Tywin, Joanna and Aerys, were together in the year after the twin's birth, there might be something to discover for either Cersei, Jaime or Tyrion. There might be talk. Aunt Genna's insistance about Tyrion as true son of Tywin certainly feels a bit odd, given Tyrion's bad reputation after Joffrey's murder.

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6 hours ago, foxberlin said:

It's very likely we'll learn more about Joanna's relation to Aerys, 

I kind of doubt it. We learnt more about Joanna and Aerys from the world book. With Pycelle and Kevan dead we are running out of characters who could actually share to the reader the events of that time. 

I think the clearest way we will learn of Tyrion or the Twin's Targaryen heritage will be their relationship to Dany's dragons. 

6 hours ago, foxberlin said:

It now appears like Tywin was unable to see Tyrion as the true clever Lannister he always was,

Tywin never doubted Tyrion's intelligence, though he may not have thought Tyrion quite as clever as Tyrion sees himself, as he would never have made him Hand and Master of Coin. 

Intelligence was not the problem for Tywin, it was Tyrion not being able to control his vices as well as his relationships with the other Lannisters, notably his nephew the King and his sister the Queen mother. With Tyrion succeeding Tywin these two Houses would likely be at war with each other, undoing all of Tywin's work. 

6 hours ago, foxberlin said:

 Aunt Genna's insistance about Tyrion as true son of Tywin certainly feels a bit odd, given Tyrion's bad reputation after Joffrey's murder.

That was actually the point of Genna's speech. It was not about biology, but that Tyrion, like Tywin, is a capable person who can get his way. 

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On 19/5/2017 at 8:12 PM, Brandon Baratheon said:

Cersei doesn't remember Joanna with good memories. It is odd she also doesn't like Tywin so much even if she admires him.

 

Are you certain that this is the case?

Tywin's family is complicated-and that is an understatement- but Cersei is fond of her parents.

She hasn't really mentioned her mother a lot, the most famous reference is the following,from COK

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 "Tears," she said scornfully to Sansa as the woman was led from the hall."The woman's weapon, my lady mother used to call them. The man's weapon is a sword. And that tells us all you need to know, doesn't it?"

And let us not forget that the death of Joanna is one of the reasons she despises Tyrion

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When I commented that you seemed a poor sort of monster, your sister said, 'He killed my mother,'

 As for Tywin she loved him, in her own way and at the same time she wanted to succeed him,

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. "This is the King's Hand!" And my father. My lord father. Should I scream and tear my hair? They said Catelyn Stark had clawed her own face to bloody ribbons when the Freys slew her precious Robb. Would you like that, Father? she wanted to ask him. Or would you want me to be strong? Did you weep for your own father? Her grandfather had died when she was only a year old, but she knew the story. Lord Tytos had grown very fat, and his heart burst one day when he was climbing the steps to his mistress. Her father was off in King's Landing when it happened, serving as the Mad King's Hand. Lord Tywin was often away in King's Landing when she and Jaime were young. If he wept when they brought him word of his father's death, he did it where no one could see the tears.

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When she was just a little girl, her father had promised her that she would marry Rhaegar. She could not have been more than six or seven. "Never speak of it, child," he had told her, smiling his secret smile that only Cersei ever saw.

 

On 19/5/2017 at 8:12 PM, Brandon Baratheon said:

 Cersei's relationship with her parents reminds me Arianne and Doran. Arianne suffered from worsening relationship of parents and she started to love Oberyn as Cersei loved Jaime. Maybe Cersei also witnessed to something about relationship of parents.

 

While Arianne also comes from a dysfunctional family, I don't think that there are many similarities between the Martells and the Lannisters. Arianne had a crush on Oberyn, but this is all it was. A young girl who is infatuated with an older, charming, dangerous and adventurous man. If you consider the fact that Arianne was unaware of her father's plans  to marry her to Viserys and make her a queen, it seems more likely that her feelings for Oberyn were just a reaction to the isolation imposed by her father. Of course the main difference is that unlike Jaime, Oberyn did not have an affair with his niece.

 

 

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Jaime's dream about her mother shows his thinking: Joanna hates Tywin. I don't think that this dream is prophecy so Jaime's dream reflects his childhood.


 

 

 

What makes you think that?

If anything Joanna appears to be saddened by Tywin and the twins. In more ways than one, her appearance mirrors the scene earlier in FFC when Cersei visits Jaime at the sept.

 

 

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Is it possible that they learned something about relationship between Aerys and Joanna? 

That is a very interesting question.

In GOT Catelyn briefly thinks of Ashara Dayne, because her maids mentioned her and it was Ned's men who spread gossip about her. 

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That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Apparently Ned's order was obeyed and indeed at Winterfell no one ever mentioned Ashara ever again. It was in SOS when Arya met Ned Dayne and was shocked to discover that perhaps her father was in love with another woman. When Arya confronted Harwin with the truth, he had to admit what had happenned.

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"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." 

We also know from Barristan that the situation between Joanna and Aerys was more intense, mainly because unlike Ned and Ashara they spent more time together and for a longer period.

It should be noted that it Daenerys who inquires regarding her parents and the conversation is told from her point of view, which means that we don't know exactly what Barristan was thinking. In his own POV Barristan thinks of Tywin as a millitary commander and as a political leader, he never thinks about his personal life. When Dany commands him to tell her about Aerys and Joanna, he is terribly reluctant. 

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 The white knight chose his words with care. "Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding." His face reddened. "I have said too much, Your Grace. I—"

 Interestingly Barristan seems more eager to tell Daenerys about Rhaella and Bonifer.

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The old knight inclined his head. "The queen your mother was always mindful of her duty." He was handsome in his gold-and-silver armor, his white cloak streaming from his shoulders, but he sounded like a man in pain, as if every word were a stone he had to pass. "As a girl, though … she was once smitten with a young knight from the stormlands who wore her favor at a tourney and named her queen of love and beauty. A brief thing."

"What happened to this knight?"

What is interesting is that approximately at the same period, Jaime meets Bonifer at Harrenhal.

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Ser Bonifer himself had been a promising knight in his youth, but something had happened to him, a defeat or a disgrace or a near brush with death, and afterward he had decided that jousting was an empty vanity and put away his lance for good and all.

Jaime, who lived in KL during Aerys' reign and after when Robert became King, knew that Bonifer could have become an accomplished knight, but for an unknown reason, he gave up.

Ironically Jaime had not heard the gossip about Rhaella and Bonifer. It is possible that he is as unaware of Aerys+Joanna as Arya was about Ashara Dayne.

Given the fact that in the WOIAF we are being provided with further information about Joanna and her affair with Aerys, I think that the twins-and Tyrion- might discover an unpleasant secret about their parents. 

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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I kind of doubt it. We learnt more about Joanna and Aerys from the world book. With Pycelle and Kevan dead we are running out of characters who could actually share to the reader the events of that time. 

I think the clearest way we will learn of Tyrion or the Twin's Targaryen heritage will be their relationship to Dany's dragons. 

Tywin never doubted Tyrion's intelligence, though he may not have thought Tyrion quite as clever as Tyrion sees himself, as he would never have made him Hand and Master of Coin. 

Intelligence was not the problem for Tywin, it was Tyrion not being able to control his vices as well as his relationships with the other Lannisters, notably his nephew the King and his sister the Queen mother. With Tyrion succeeding Tywin these two Houses would likely be at war with each other, undoing all of Tywin's work. 

That was actually the point of Genna's speech. It was not about biology, but that Tyrion, like Tywin, is a capable person who can get his way. 

Thanks for your reply, Bernie. I share your understanding of the characters. Only we have seen in the past that a more literal understanding sometimes turned out to become true as well. Take Catelyn's heart like a stone which prepared for her return as Lady Stoneheart. Tywin's you are my son/ you are not my son's regarding Tyrion and Jaime might serve the same purpose if one of them is indeed fathered by Aerys.

With Jon's heritage there is a similar problem regarding witnesses. Many readers expect Bran to find out. But in his dreams Jon already struggles with his Stark-identity and dragons play no big part in them. Jaime's dreams are quite related to Jon's: passage ways, dead fathers, fire, ... So maybe GRRM wants the bastards to find out on their own and be met halfway by someone who can offer help.

Pycelle's and Kevan's deaths might be a way to share further knowledge. You know, Pycelle's deathbed was a certain leather-bound tome, a term which was often used to describe Grand Maester Malleon's book on the lineages of the great houses. This is the very situation in which Varys praises fAegon's Targaryen looks and education as ruler. Maybe Pycelle here had to be stopped to speak with Kevan about Targaryen's loss of looks when married to other houses and how a bastard Cersei might be fit to rule without Tyrells - even if that means to reveal that his beloved Tywin indeed ate from another man's trencher?

All those interrupted talks, dissociative dreams and allusions of a royal love triangle combined there are strong hints for Targ twins. And with AFFC 2005, ADWD 2011 and TWOIAF 2014 we have an increase of such notion.

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