Boyajian's star (alien megastructure star) is dimming again right now

[Ded As Ned]

edit [redacted]

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 minutes ago, Ded As Ned said:

No.  So much no in this thread.

Why not?  The entangled particles are interacting with each other instantaneously across distances that should be affected by light speed delay.  If they aren't "left handed and right handed gloves" as Einstein's thought experiment hypothesized how do the particles interact without light speed lag if locality isn't violated?

[Ded As Ned]

I wasn't specifically responding to your post, Scot.  Apologies. 

Anyway, while I have a degree in Physics, it's not my day job (and I struggled mightily with the quantum classes during my studies).  Altherion seems to have a better understanding of the subatomic/quantum world than I, but in general terms, you can't take things that are true in the quantum scale (such as entanglement) and extrapolate them to the galactic (or everyday) scale.  This has been the holy grail of physics for some time now, finding the Unified Theory that holds true for both quantum and classical fields of study.

[Ded As Ned]

Back on topic, has anyone seen any new info about the new data they've been collecting on Boyajian's star?  I haven't found anything

[Loge]

31 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Why not?  The entangled particles are interacting with each other instantaneously across distances that should be affected by light speed delay.  If they aren't "left handed and right handed gloves" as Einstein's thought experiment hypothesized how do the particles interact without light speed lag if locality isn't violated?

I don't know much about entanglement but the location of an object usually isn't well defined or even a useful concept in quantum physics. That doesn't mean space doesn't exist. There's all sorts of stuff that seem to violate locality, like the double slit experiment or the tunnel effect.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 minutes ago, Loge said:

I don't know much about entanglement but the location of an object usually isn't well defined or even a useful concept in quantum physics. That doesn't mean space doesn't exist. There's all sorts of stuff that seem to violate locality, like the double slit experiment or the tunnel effect.  

Right.  But entanglement is really weird because the effect of entangled particles appears to have no light speed time lag... we don't know why.

[Wolfgirly]

It could be rings of metal and crystal around a dwarf star.

[Altherion]

5 hours ago, Ded As Ned said:

Back on topic, has anyone seen any new info about the new data they've been collecting on Boyajian's star?  I haven't found anything

This article says that the current dip is mostly over. I think they're going to work on it some more before releasing the results. Also, if it follows the previous pattern, it might dim considerably more in the near future (this iteration maxed out at a 3% change).

6 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Why not?  The entangled particles are interacting with each other instantaneously across distances that should be affected by light speed delay.  If they aren't "left handed and right handed gloves" as Einstein's thought experiment hypothesized how do the particles interact without light speed lag if locality isn't violated?

Locality is violated (well, either that or something else has to give), but not in a way that allows you to transmit information faster than light or otherwise violate causality. There are some experiments (e.g. the delayed choice quantum eraser) which at first glance look like they almost certainly do this, but if you check everything carefully, it always comes out that you can't break the speed limit with these tricks (although quantum mechanics appears to do so internally).

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Altherion said:

This article says that the current dip is mostly over. I think they're going to work on it some more before releasing the results. Also, if it follows the previous pattern, it might dim considerably more in the near future (this iteration maxed out at a 3% change).

Locality is violated (well, either that or something else has to give), but not in a way that allows you to transmit information faster than light or otherwise violate causality. There are some experiments (e.g. the delayed choice quantum eraser) which at first glance look like they almost certainly do this, but if you check everything carefully, it always comes out that you can't break the speed limit with these tricks (although quantum mechanics appears to do so internally).

Regardless of whether or not entanglement allows us to break the FTL the implications regarding locality is huge.

 

[Ded As Ned]

5 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Regardless of whether or not entanglement allows us to break the FTL the implications regarding locality is huge.

 

Indeed.  Isn't it mind boggling? 

I'm curious what you've been reading or what peaked your interest in these subjects... 

 

[The Anti-Targ]

Wouldn't a Dyson Sphere type structure have regularity and consistency with its dimming effects. If there does not seem to be a predictable pattern then it seems an alien megastructure explanation is as fanciful as the hollow moon conspiracy.

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Wouldn't a Dyson Sphere type structure have regularity and consistency with its dimming effects. If there does not seem to be a predictable pattern then it seems an alien megastructure explanation is as fanciful as the hollow moon conspiracy.

There are some suggestions that a Dyson sphere is not actually practically feasible and that a Dyson Swarm is the more likely approach that an advanced technological civilization would take to capture the energy from their sun. Meaning that we would not be looking at a solid sphere, but instead at vast arrays of solar energy capturing "panels" if you will, arranged in swarms covering millions of square km's.

Such swarms can then obviously move around independently or even change size or shape, depending on how their creators wish to arrange, modify or expand them over time.

[The Anti-Targ]

IMO any Dyson structure is a really inelegant solution to energy needs for an advanced civilisation. It's pretty much using contemporary scientific understanding and projecting it on far more advanced species. IMO it's more likely that advanced civilisations are going to find ways of extracting energy from matter. After all, as E=MC^2, the more you are able to extract close to 100% of MC^2 out of matter as useable energy the less matter you need.

I'd rather believe that advanced civilisations are able to do something close to what Doc Emmett does in Back to the Future with poking household rubbish into his portable fusion reactor on the DeLorean, or Tony Stark's Arc Reactor, than these gigantic space megastructures.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 minute ago, The Anti-Targ said:

IMO any Dyson structure is a really inelegant solution to energy needs for an advanced civilisation. It's pretty much using contemporary scientific understanding and projecting it on far more advanced species. IMO it's more likely that advanced civilisations are going to find ways of extracting energy from matter. After all, as E=MC^2, the more you are able to extract close to 100% of MC^2 out of matter as useable energy the less matter you need.

I'd rather believe that advanced civilisations are able to do something close to what Doc Emmett does in Back to the Future with poking household rubbish into his portable fusion reactor on the DeLorean, or Tony Stark's Arc Reactor, than these gigantic space megastructures.

Well that is a matter of personal belief of course. Myself, I tend to also question the motivation for a Dyson type structure, when you could have fusion power producing the same type of energy from compact, clean reactors etc. But then, maybe I'm just not able to think like a billion year old civilization. Over such a time period the construction of a Dyson swarm might be a trivial and rather sensible exercise, especially if all other local energy sources have been depleted.

I guess we just don't know what looks sensible with million or billion year old technology.

[Erik of Hazelfield]

What I don't understand is why you'd need all that energy in the first place. I mean, the sunlight that hits the Earth every day is more than enough for our needs. Are those guys building a Death Star and need electricity for welding it or what's the deal here?

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, Erik of Hazelfield said:

What I don't understand is why you'd need all that energy in the first place. I mean, the sunlight that hits the Earth every day is more than enough for our needs.

Is it? Is that why we've been burning fossil fuels for ever? And sure, now solar power is beginning to emerge as a source in its own right but is it really plausible to get all our energy needs from solar power, especially without covering huge swathes of the Earth with panels?

[Altherion]

3 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Is it? Is that why we've been burning fossil fuels for ever? And sure, now solar power is beginning to emerge as a source in its own right but is it really plausible to get all our energy needs from solar power, especially without covering huge swathes of the Earth with panels?

Yes. Even with current technology (i.e. roughly 20% efficiency), it only takes a tiny area to power all of Earth. The power output of the Sun is utterly absurd by human standards; to call us insects compared to it is an insult to insects.

1 hour ago, Erik of Hazelfield said:

What I don't understand is why you'd need all that energy in the first place. I mean, the sunlight that hits the Earth every day is more than enough for our needs. Are those guys building a Death Star and need electricity for welding it or what's the deal here?

Depending on how you do it, stuff like interstellar travel may require that kind of energy. Also, all of the things that we currently do (computing, communication, etc.) benefits from extra power and this might scale up for interplanetary or interstellar civilizations.

[felice]

8 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I guess we just don't know what looks sensible with million or billion year old technology.

Or whether "sensible" is even a factor. They could build or grow Dyson structures just because it seems like a cool idea.

[IheartIheartTesla]

Aliens not having contacted us yet is a good argument for quantum entanglement not breaking FTL barriers.

Otherwise we would have seen this alien megastructure keep emitting 'left-handed' particles (or whatever quantum state you prefer) and laugh at us pitiful fools still debating EPR and Bell rather than listen to their coded message.

[Altherion]

54 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Aliens not having contacted us yet is a good argument for quantum entanglement not breaking FTL barriers.

Otherwise we would have seen this alien megastructure keep emitting 'left-handed' particles (or whatever quantum state you prefer) and laugh at us pitiful fools still debating EPR and Bell rather than listen to their coded message.

It's possible, but it could also be that they're communicating in a way that we cannot perceive. Imagine sending radio waves into a medieval city. If the most efficient way to communicate turns out to be something like gravitons (entangled or otherwise), they could be in constant communication with multiple locations in our solar system and we'd never see it.