zandru Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 50 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said: my totally correct explanation. If I had written this, it would have been sarcasm. I'm stepping out now, to avoid spoiling y'all's fun any further. Oh, and "golden shower" means urine. It is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said: I think a giant clue that helps to explain the mechanics of telepathy in asoiaf is way more "important" than Dany's feelings about the event. If Viserys telepathically linked to Dany or vice versa in that moment, that has huge implications. Namely, if true it confirms that Dany's telepathic abilities are not strictly limited to bonding with dragons, and that in turn implies that telepathy in general is a much more fluid spectrum of abilities than has been explicitly presented in the story thus far. But most of the people in this thread are wwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy over-thinking the situation and ignoring the super awesome logic I have presented: Dany included molten gold in a list of things she has literally tasted -> Viserys has literally tasted molten gold -> telepathy exists and abilities can be amplified by intense situations, near-death experiences, drugs (alcohol in this case), and pain, and Viserys was effectively praying to Dany for his life (praying can be seen as literally trying to connect with a person or deity telepathically) -> therefore Dany and Viserys were connected in that moment, at least enough so that Dany could taste the molten gold as Viserys tasted it. I generally don't believe in applying the Occam's Razor argument to asoiaf, but when there is a totally plausible and straightforward explanation to something, I lean heavily toward accepting the plausible explanation before resorting to abstract metaphorical explanations. And maybe I am biased because the metaphorical explanations don't provide us with any info to further unravel the mysteries of asoiaf, while my explanation does. Again I'm not trying to discourage anyone who has shared their thoughts here. I am just a bit disappointed that few people are even considering my totally correct explanation. Come on people, this should be a mind-blowing catch! We have already praised you for your great catch. The telepathic link likely proceeded via Viserion's egg/dragon embryo. It also implies that Dany is wrong when she says her brother was 'not a dragon'. One dragon killed another. So thank you for your contribution; I will be sure to cite you. I'm glad it's so 'mind-blowing' for you to find evidence satisfying enough for you to realize what I've been saying for a long time, that firstly fire is the central element of magic, and secondly that all 'third eye' faculties are related across the spectrum. It's just that you're missing the full picture. You're 'underthinking it,' sweetheart. And another thing -- don't be a dick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 33 minutes ago, zandru said: If I had written this, it would have been sarcasm. No need to use the conditional. Your sarcasm comes across loud and clear, glimmering through the virtual veil like a golden shower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 33 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: No need .. Thank you. I'd begun to worry. Good reprisal of the "golden shower!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 1 minute ago, zandru said: Thank you. I'd begun to worry. Good reprisal of the "golden shower!" You made me smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40 Thousand Skeletons Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 4 hours ago, ravenous reader said: We have already praised you for your great catch. The telepathic link likely proceeded via Viserion's egg/dragon embryo. It also implies that Dany is wrong when she says her brother was 'not a dragon'. One dragon killed another. So thank you for your contribution; I will be sure to cite you. I'm glad it's so 'mind-blowing' for you to find evidence satisfying enough for you to realize what I've been saying for a long time, that firstly fire is the central element of magic, and secondly that all 'third eye' faculties are related across the spectrum. It's just that you're missing the full picture. You're 'underthinking it,' sweetheart. And another thing -- don't be a dick. I generally try to avoid antagonizing people, but I really don't appreciate your condescending tone here. First, I don't subscribe to your belief that "fire is the central element of magic". Second, I am not "underthinking it". See: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/144065-the-cotf-master-plan-part-1/ and http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/144876-the-cotf-master-plan-part-2/. I am currently working on the much longer part 3, the final part to my grand theory. Piece of advice for you: if you are telling someone not to be a dick, don't precede the request by telling them they don't understand something and calling them 'sweetheart'. I don't know if you meant sweetheart in a nice way, but just reading it comes off as super insulting. Sorry if I came across sounding like a dick, but I was naively hoping to have a discussion about the implications of a direct telepathic link between Dany and Viserys during that scene. Instead what ensued was mostly an argument about Dany's moral culpability for her brother's murder and general skepticism that Dany has literally tasted molten gold. So I got frustrated. Time to lighten the mood with smileys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 @40 Thousand Skeletons I have written two major threads, 'The Killing Word -- a re-examination of the Prologue' and 'POEMS (or other sundry quotes) that remind you of ASOIAF'. If you look at those threads, you'll see that I don't tell the contributors where the discussion should lead or what to think -- and I would never criticize them for either over- or underthinking, given that would presume that I am the sole arbiter of the limit of the rational in the realm of fantasy-- that in itself is condescending. I love your potential catch surrounding Dany's and Viserys's telepathic moment. Where some of us differ from you, however, is our belief that the telepathic link did not proceed directly between the two of them, but rather via the dragon intermediary, analogous to the wolves or the weirwood conduit. You say you got frustrated because you wanted to have a discussion about the implications of a telepathic link; well, I've provided you with a very extensive explanation on why Bran's scene in which he telepathically tastes the captive's blood via the weirwood intermediary, moreover accomplishing this across disparate time dimensions, is parallel with Dany's scene in which she tastes her brother's blood (or, if you don't buy the gold=blood connection, participates in his death) via the dragon intermediary. Those kinds of implications interest me. I gather they don't interest you, or you wouldn't be frustrated. As far as logic: The crux of your argument -- and indeed all of our arguments on this site -- rests in each case on an arbitrary selection of what to take literally and what to take metaphorically in any given textual analysis. Some people are of the opinion that 'molten gold' is a figure of speech indicating Dany's ecstatic yet guilty moment; others take it literally to mean she has tasted molten gold at some point in her life, and draw provocative conclusions from there. Both are valid approaches and interpretations. Let's look at the conclusion of the quote again, before I go: A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV "One flute will serve only to unstop your ears and dissolve the caul from off your eyes, so that you may hear and see the truths that will be laid before you." Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother's milk and Drogo's seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them . . . and then the glass was empty. If you read this passage carefully, you'd have to acknowledge that your assertion that the 'molten gold' is something Dany literally tasted beyond a shadow of a doubt rests on shaky ground, especially since the very next sentence qualifies that it (the shade of the evening drink) was comprised of 'all the tastes she had ever known and none of them.' GRRM is playing his equivocal game, which is prohibitive of 'Occam's Razor'. So, tell me, into which category should the 'molten gold' taste be reliably placed....Does it fall into the category of the 'known' or the 'unknown' tastes? P.S. I will take your advice regarding how to more appropriately call someone a sweet peter in future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 On 5/20/2017 at 5:24 AM, ravenous reader said: My goodness -- the Dany enforcers have done you a number! You sound like a Dany apologist ... Dany rescued Mirri from rape; it was within her power to rescue her brother, or at least attempt to do so, but chose not to -- instead, referring to him before he'd died as 'the man who had been her brother.' Well, he had threatened to murder her and her unborn child in front of a Dothraki Khal and his followers. And, she did try to save him, by offering the dragon eggs. Viserys, not Dany, was responsible for his death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40 Thousand Skeletons Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 6 hours ago, ravenous reader said: @40 Thousand Skeletons I have written two major threads, 'The Killing Word -- a re-examination of the Prologue' and 'POEMS (or other sundry quotes) that remind you of ASOIAF'. If you look at those threads, you'll see that I don't tell the contributors where the discussion should lead or what to think -- and I would never criticize them for either over- or underthinking, given that would presume that I am the sole arbiter of the limit of the rational in the realm of fantasy-- that in itself is condescending. I love your potential catch surrounding Dany's and Viserys's telepathic moment. Where some of us differ from you, however, is our belief that the telepathic link did not proceed directly between the two of them, but rather via the dragon intermediary, analogous to the wolves or the weirwood conduit. You say you got frustrated because you wanted to have a discussion about the implications of a telepathic link; well, I've provided you with a very extensive explanation on why Bran's scene in which he telepathically tastes the captive's blood via the weirwood intermediary, moreover accomplishing this across disparate time dimensions, is parallel with Dany's scene in which she tastes her brother's blood (or, if you don't buy the gold=blood connection, participates in his death) via the dragon intermediary. Those kinds of implications interest me. I gather they don't interest you, or you wouldn't be frustrated. As far as logic: The crux of your argument -- and indeed all of our arguments on this site -- rests in each case on an arbitrary selection of what to take literally and what to take metaphorically in any given textual analysis. Some people are of the opinion that 'molten gold' is a figure of speech indicating Dany's ecstatic yet guilty moment; others take it literally to mean she has tasted molten gold at some point in her life, and draw provocative conclusions from there. Both are valid approaches and interpretations. Let's look at the conclusion of the quote again, before I go: A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV "One flute will serve only to unstop your ears and dissolve the caul from off your eyes, so that you may hear and see the truths that will be laid before you." Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother's milk and Drogo's seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them . . . and then the glass was empty. If you read this passage carefully, you'd have to acknowledge that your assertion that the 'molten gold' is something Dany literally tasted beyond a shadow of a doubt rests on shaky ground, especially since the very next sentence qualifies that it (the shade of the evening drink) was comprised of 'all the tastes she had ever known and none of them.' GRRM is playing his equivocal game, which is prohibitive of 'Occam's Razor'. So, tell me, into which category should the 'molten gold' taste be reliably placed....Does it fall into the category of the 'known' or the 'unknown' tastes? P.S. I will take your advice regarding how to more appropriately call someone a sweet peter in future I am absolutely interested in the parallels to Bran you pointed out. Thank you for your thoughts on the subject. I was less interested in the abstract metaphors to explain away the molten gold line as not being something she tasted But I disagree that my assertion rests on such shaky ground. She didn't say shade of the evening tastes like things she has never tasted, she said it tastes like all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them, meaning it simultaneously tastes like all the tastes she has known, referring to that list with molten gold on it, but it also tastes like none of those things because in reality it tastes like ink and rotten meat, which is how she described it before swallowing. So "molten gold" is almost definitely being included on a list of "known tastes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40 Thousand Skeletons Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 6 hours ago, SeanF said: Well, he had threatened to murder her and her unborn child in front of a Dothraki Khal and his followers. And, she did try to save him, by offering the dragon eggs. Viserys, not Dany, was responsible for his death. Just to jump in on the discussion that I was so far ignoring , it is quite clear in that scene that Viserys has been misinformed about the laws of Vaes Dothrak. He states they cannot kill him in their sacred city, but Dany and Jorah obviously know this to be false. So the real question is, which one of Illyrio's patsies purposely misinformed Viserys? If we are to blame anyone for the death of Viserys, it should probably be the common tongue-speaking companions of Viserys, Jorah and Doreah. Doreah is also the same person who earlier "commanded" Viserys to attend Dany at dinner, which basically put the nail in the coffin of their relationship and drove Viserys to steal the eggs. I'm going to blame... Doreah. And Jorah gets the assist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 20 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said: I think a giant clue that helps to explain the mechanics of telepathy in asoiaf is way more "important" than Dany's feelings about the event. If Viserys telepathically linked to Dany or vice versa in that moment, that has huge implications. Namely, if true it confirms that Dany's telepathic abilities are not strictly limited to bonding with dragons, and that in turn implies that telepathy in general is a much more fluid spectrum of abilities than has been explicitly presented in the story thus far. After Viserys dies, Dany decides to adopt his cause which she never wanted. After her Viserys fever dream at the end of Dance, she goes full fire-and-blood-dragons-plant-no-trees: Viserys' cause escalated. Dany's feelings about Viserys have already had a massive impact as they've been the basis of her decisions which have turned the plot most. If it weren't for her feelings, most of her arc wouldn't have even happened as it did. We don't know the impact of the Viserys fever dream on her, but it's safe to say that it'll be HUGE. Any impact of whatever happened with the molten gold moment remains to be seen. Dany's thoughts and feelings will dictate how any abilities are used and overlooking character motivation in a series structured as a series of first person POVs is missing out on a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40 Thousand Skeletons Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 3 hours ago, Lollygag said: After Viserys dies, Dany decides to adopt his cause which she never wanted. After her Viserys fever dream at the end of Dance, she goes full fire-and-blood-dragons-plant-no-trees: Viserys' cause escalated. Dany's feelings about Viserys have already had a massive impact as they've been the basis of her decisions which have turned the plot most. If it weren't for her feelings, most of her arc wouldn't have even happened as it did. We don't know the impact of the Viserys fever dream on her, but it's safe to say that it'll be HUGE. Any impact of whatever happened with the molten gold moment remains to be seen. Dany's thoughts and feelings will dictate how any abilities are used and overlooking character motivation in a series structured as a series of first person POVs is missing out on a lot. I never suggested that character motivation should be overlooked. That's why I put "important" in quotes. In terms of what is more "important" to the "story" itself, yeah I would agree that character motivation is more important. But in terms of predicting the ending and formulating theories to explain what is happening or going to happen in the story, the mechanics of how telepathy works are more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I don't think the reference to tasting molten gold supports the notion of Dany having a telepathic connection with her nasty brother. It think the molten gold is a reference to things she hasn't tasted. But I also have a bit of trouble believing that anyone can taste molten gold. Maybe I'm taking it too literally but I don't think anyone can taste a substance that is over 1,000 degrees. And it is established that the stuff she drank at the HOTU takes immediate hallucinogenic effect when you drink it. Euron forces Aeron to drink shade of the evening in one of the Winds chapters and it takes immediate effect then as well. I took the "taste molten gold" as proof that she's already tripping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40 Thousand Skeletons Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 1 hour ago, White Ravens said: I don't think the reference to tasting molten gold supports the notion of Dany having a telepathic connection with her nasty brother. It think the molten gold is a reference to things she hasn't tasted. But I also have a bit of trouble believing that anyone can taste molten gold. Maybe I'm taking it too literally but I don't think anyone can taste a substance that is over 1,000 degrees. And it is established that the stuff she drank at the HOTU takes immediate hallucinogenic effect when you drink it. I took the "taste molten gold" as proof that she's already tripping. How could it be referencing something she hasn't tasted? The shade of the evening only tasted like things she has tasted. And everything else on the list is something she has tasted before. And yes she is tripping. That is why something that in reality tastes like ink and spoiled meat seems to taste like every taste Dany has ever tasted, including... molten gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said: How could it be referencing something she hasn't tasted? The shade of the evening only tasted like things she has tasted. And everything else on the list is something she has tasted before. And yes she is tripping. That is why something that in reality tastes like ink and spoiled meat seems to taste like every taste Dany has ever tasted, including... molten gold. I realize circular argument is circular but... " It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them". I will admit that the other things listed are things that she has tasted before but the molten gold is the "and none of them" part". Maybe it gets mentioned last to help illustrate that the shade of the evening is really starting to make her trip out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40 Thousand Skeletons Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 36 minutes ago, White Ravens said: I realize circular argument is circular but... " It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them". I will admit that the other things listed are things that she has tasted before but the molten gold is the "and none of them" part". Maybe it gets mentioned last to help illustrate that the shade of the evening is really starting to make her trip out. I think you are totally misinterpreting what "and none of them" means. You seem to think the line means: It was all the tastes she had ever known, and all the tastes she didn't know. And then you are making the case that "molten gold" is included in the tastes she didn't know. But that is not what the line means at all. It actually means: It was all the tastes she had ever known, and at the same time it tasted like none of those tastes. Which makes sense, because obviously it doesn't really taste like all those things because that is just the tripping effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 20 hours ago, SeanF said: Well, he had threatened to murder her and her unborn child in front of a Dothraki Khal and his followers. And, she did try to save him, by offering the dragon eggs. Viserys, not Dany, was responsible for his death. exactly. Saving mirri was essentially her just saving a slave who was about to be raped. Visery's broke the rules of a sacred city and threatened dany in front of hundreds of people. Perhaps even more then hundreds. If drogo had let that slide he would have been seen as weak and going against the dothraki ways. As soon as he put that sword to her belly there was absolutely no chance he could live. His death was his own doing and noone else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maudisdottir Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 On 5/22/2017 at 4:23 AM, Targaryen Restoration said: It is a figure of speech, nothing more. "the last kiss his mother ever gave him" and "molten gold" are all feel-good sensations, but not likely to have any taste. As I said, it is just a figure of speech. George being loose with his descriptions. A mother's kiss would be a moment of bliss for a little boy who is away from home an lost his family. The death of big brother who threatened to kill your baby and incidentally stands in the way of the line of succession would be a feel good moment of triumph for Dany. She herself could not do the deed even when she already knew Viserys is likely to fail in restoring her family. Drogo provided the dirty work. The drink and porridge were made to lure and tempt Dany and Bran. It is not going to taste like food. It just inserts feel-good feelings to make the person want to take another drink and another spoonful. I'm amazed that this thread is already five pages long trying to over-analyse a cool-sounding figure of speech. It's like saying something tastes like summer. What does summer taste like? Fruit and warmth and balmy nights, with a hint of coconut. What does molten gold taste like? Probably warm, and smooth, and rich. Five goddam pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40 Thousand Skeletons Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 20 minutes ago, maudisdottir said: I'm amazed that this thread is already five pages long trying to over-analyse a cool-sounding figure of speech. It's like saying something tastes like summer. What does summer taste like? Fruit and warmth and balmy nights, with a hint of coconut. What does molten gold taste like? Probably warm, and smooth, and rich. Five goddam pages. Except that it is clearly not a figure of speech. Saying she tasted anise, honey, cream, drogo seed, red meat, and hot blood does not involve any figures of speech. Those are things she has tasted. And while Dany directly has never tasted molten gold, it just so happens that Viserys did. Don't get me wrong, if there was no scene in the books with a character literally tasting molten gold, I would assume it is just a figure of speech. But that scene does exist, so I interpret it to be another taste she knows in a list of known, metaphor-free tastes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maudisdottir Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 21 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said: metaphor-free Quote It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them. What's that if not a metaphor/figure of speech? Or is George literally saying "Dany does not know any of these tastes?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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