Lord Edric Baratheon

Is anyone else growing less and less convinced of r+l=j, as the re-read goes on...

30 posts in this topic

Actually this is my second re-read, and I have to say that for a long time I've been a firm believer of this theory, with all the additional info on the harrenhal tourney as well as the other clues scattered among the text. Lately, I find it to be very foolish, and I've since started to think what the real answer might be, was it ashara and ned? ashara and brandon? perhaps even ned and some random girl?or brandon and some random girl ? (brandon might have indeed been a wild wolf) how does rhaegar really fit into the picture and also do we have enough facts about lyanna to be putting this together? Of course the answer to all of this is we just don't know (damn you george!) All these other facts as well as the proximity to the isle of faces makes me think the rhaegar and lyanna connection is real, though I doubt it is to have some superhero jon snow brought forth. To me it is obvious that the complexity of the story will result in many heroes not just a single azor ahai, if you will. So in my opinion jon is not "the one", but one of the few perhaps. Rather than thinking about the three heads of the dragon, and dany, and (f)aegon, I'm thinking it will be a group effort. I'm even doubting that the "apocalypse" coming for our heroes will be as its being portrayed on the show or as the read will have us believe. 

Anyway, I don't want to ramble on with my several doubts on what our author has clearly set up to deceive us. So here is the thread I wanted to start, seeing that this story is meant to deceive, how much should we trust prophecy and visions and all that, they clearly have a part to play, but will they spell out the whole story or is it meant to deceive? George does a really good job on setting plots where we hear a tale, our pov character believes one thing only to be proved wrong by a background character in another one's pov. Where I'm trying to get with this is that cat believes jon's mother to be ashara dayne, she ponders it in a couple of her pov's first in agot and then in asos (If I'm not mistaken), which would indicate that ashara is not jon's mom, is the only other option lyanna? most of the arguments put forth for her being the mother are from the harrenhal tourney and visions. Prophecy ultimately leads us to r+l=j, which is my whole point. Any thoughts? Insight is always appreciated to loosen these knots and learn a bit more.

ps. I know my fact are lazy, but bear with me. besides if you're here you probably know exactly what I'm talking about.

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There is actually very little evidence to support RLJ, but since it would fit thematically within the story it's hard to see how any other conclusion would make sense.

All we really know is that Lyanna gave birth, which is likely Jon, and Ned promised to do or not do something (or several things) that came at a great price to him.

Jon doesn't appear to have any Targ characteristics, although his eyes appear black, like Dany's, and he is leaner and more graceful than his brothers. But pretty much everyone who sees him notes that he looks more like a Stark than his brothers, with Tyrion going so far as to say that whomever his mother was she left little of herself in Jon (he is, of course, assuming that Ned is his father, not that Lyanna was his mother.)

Jon did have one dream with a dragon in it, but this hardly qualifies as dragon-dreaming. And we don't know if he is immune to disease, or even if this is an actual Targ trait (if it is, it most certainly isn't universal). He also doesn't appear to be fire resistant (again, not even certain this is an actual Targ trait either), but then again, Dany had burns on her hands following the fighting pit, so Jon's burns may or may not mean something, or nothing at all.

Also, the fact that Jon communes with a wolf (the Stark sigil) and that his particular wolf is white with red eyes, like a weirwood, establish his connection to the North and the First Men pretty clearly. But that may just be a factor of having grown up in the north, perhaps suppressing his Targ heritage. As he gets closer to dragons, we may see more Targness come from Jon.

 

 

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Dany has dark purple eyes like amethysts (and like Ashara's via Selmy's PoV), not black, which is in contrast to Viserys lilac eyes. Jon looks more a Stark than Catelyn's other children because he looks like Lyanna, in the way that Ned tells Arya she looks like her aunt Lyanna.

I have pondered the alternative to Jon's parentage and keep coming to L+R= J because of the literary hints Martin has given us. It's Daenerys that bakes my noodle when thinking about her parentage...

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I agree, It all comes back to lyanna and rhaegar being the parents, however it appears that ashara's mystery baby, lyanna's mystery baby, jon and dany (and possibly aegon) all were born in somehow suspicious circumstances around the same time and as a consequence of the rebellion and all its moving pieces. It would fit for our author as well to have made some sort of swaps with all these babies or at least some.

Genes are fickle at best in our story and if genes were what mattered in the end, we could clearly say that jon is either ned or brandon's, because unless lyanna got with someone with similar looks, her starkness wouldn't have kept as well as jon's did, I mean by all accounts he is a stark in every sense; for instance, robb got the tully look as well as bran, rickon and sansa, so the auburn hair prevailed over the dark brown hair and grey eyes. Since we don't know how the stark genes matched with fair haired genes, other than tullys, we can't say they would've remained like in jon. Dany has purple eyes, like dark purple which match aegon's, said by tyrion to be dark purple while they travel through the rhoyne. But she definitely looks targaryen, as does aegon, however we have all these hints at them not being who they say they are. My wild guesses on this would be aegon is just a kid from lys or volantis who was the same age and looked the part (or blackfyre of course) and dany could be ashara's mystery baby for all we know about her supposed memories of her childhood, which are little to none (house with red door, lemon tree, bare foot running, willem darry, that's it!)

So there could be an argument made as to wether genes matter definitively or rather the evidence or hints found along the text.

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I'd say if you just read the first 2-3 books then R+L=J seems obvious but the hints Martin keeps dropping in later books could point in several directions. Personally I am about 70/30 on R+L=J. I would like it to be N+A=J.

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I agree with your assessment, I'm also a fan of ashara being jon's mother. Hope winds comes soon I think this might be the third time I've read asos (that's where I'm at on my reread, tyrion 3), though I enjoyed agot and adwd far more, affc is also great. 

 

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On 24/05/2017 at 0:09 AM, Lord Wraith said:

I'd say if you just read the first 2-3 books then R+L=J seems obvious but the hints Martin keeps dropping in later books could point in several directions. Personally I am about 70/30 on R+L=J. I would like it to be N+A=J.

I would be very disappointed with that. Ned never thinks of Jon's mother, but he thinks a lot about Lyanna. If N+A=J, poor Jon Snow had a really cruel father who would take his son away from his mother and never mention her to him, or give him hints. The whole mystery surrounding Jon's parentage is what made him so sullen and melancholic. If his father took him away from his mother, never mentions her, raises him with a very hurt and resentful Catelyn, of course Jon would think she was some horrible whore.

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I still believe in R+L=J because let us face it, the show wouldn't change something that big. But also Ned needs a reason not to tell anyone about Jon's parents and if he is actually the heir to the Iron Throne that explains a lot.

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17 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

I still believe in R+L=J because let us face it, the show wouldn't change something that big. 

Hahahahhahahh. It's entirely off the rails and delivers the exact opposite meaning of the books at every turn, but sure, they're duty-bound.

To the OP's point, I think it's quite a inaccurate to paint this series as one that's "meant to deceive." Martin will turn conventional storytelling tropes on their head, and takes a certain delight in that (Quentyn serving as an inversion of the hero's monomyth is a nice microcosm of that), but he really doesn't actively deceive. In fact, the "shocks" are so obvious and born of the narrative that on reread, you smack yourself for not seeing the writing on the wall (the Red Wedding's heavy foreshadowing may be the most accessible example to that point).

Each time I reread ASOIAF, I find R+L=J more convincing. It's quite easy to "disprove" or poke holes in the "evidence," but it's important to remember that this isn't a CSI episode either. It's a constructive narrative with thematic meanings. The biggest complaint levied against the theory I've seen is that it's too "obvious", right? But you have to consider what it does and what point it serves in the story.

In the case of this theory...it's the entire scaffolding that makes Ned's arc work. You take it away, then suddenly his struggles with internal and external honor and his specific hangups fail to make sense. Add to that what we know of Ned's nature, and you kind of wonder, "what would any of these other options actually do for the story, on a thematic level?" Not much, honestly. There's hand-waving "people aren't what they seem!" that I see tossed out, but that's not particularly meaningful, and it definitely doesn't make stuff like when Ned links Sansa begging for Lady's life to his sister make a modicum of sense.

The thing is, people treat R+L=J as this super-guarded mystery reveal, and it's just...not. It's a texture to Ned's story. And it is something that could have plot-consequences later given the stations of R+L and what that might mean for Jon's position within this society, sure. But it's not this twist-to-end-all-twists. 

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47 minutes ago, Chebyshov said:

To the OP's point, I think it's quite a inaccurate to paint this series as one that's "meant to deceive." Martin will turn conventional storytelling tropes on their head, and takes a certain delight in that (Quentyn serving as an inversion of the hero's monomyth is a nice microcosm of that), but he really doesn't actively deceive. In fact, the "shocks" are so obvious and born of the narrative that on reread, you smack yourself for not seeing the writing on the wall (the Red Wedding's heavy foreshadowing may be the most accessible example to that point).

We don't joke about Quentyn being dead, he is still alive.

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On 6/5/2017 at 3:55 PM, Agent 326 said:

We don't joke about Quentyn being dead, he is still alive.

I prefer my theory that the Quentyn sent to Essos is not the biological Quentyn Martell but a kid from the Water Gradens raised to give the Yronwoods.

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On 5/21/2017 at 6:43 PM, John Suburbs said:

although his eyes appear black, like Dany's

When Jon's eyes are described in the text they are described as grey and only once as  "a grey so dark they seemed almost black" AGOT-Bran I. 

Dany's eyes are described as purple, and never black.

Nothing seems to link Jon and Dany's eye color. 

In response to the OP, yes, I have grown to doubt RLJ with every reread. I was pretty convinced it was the truth after my first read of the series and first reread. Five times through the series later, I am not at all sure RLJ is the case. It's certainly plausible and is hinted in the text, but I have come to think that GRRM could be leading us down a merry little path, and he is ready to shock us with the true reveal, which isn't the wolf maid and the silver prince ever having a child together! 

I may change my mind after another couple rereads and see that RLJ is the only plausible answer, but for now, I am a doubter! 

 

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9 hours ago, St Daga said:

When Jon's eyes are described in the text they are described as grey and only once as  "a grey so dark they seemed almost black" AGOT-Bran I. 

Dany's eyes are described as purple, and never black.

Nothing seems to link Jon and Dany's eye color. 

In response to the OP, yes, I have grown to doubt RLJ with every reread. I was pretty convinced it was the truth after my first read of the series and first reread. Five times through the series later, I am not at all sure RLJ is the case. It's certainly plausible and is hinted in the text, but I have come to think that GRRM could be leading us down a merry little path, and he is ready to shock us with the true reveal, which isn't the wolf maid and the silver prince ever having a child together! 

I may change my mind after another couple rereads and see that RLJ is the only plausible answer, but for now, I am a doubter! 

 

I thought there was some text somewhere that had her eyes a deep purple that most people thought they were black at first. But I couldn't find it on a quick scan. If I spot it, I'll post it.

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Posted (edited)

There's this from AFFC (The Queenmaker)

Quote

[Darkstar] His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew they were purple. Dark purple. Dark and angry.

And this from Dance:

Quote

Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pale, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple.

So purple to black eyes are a thing.

Edited by Springwatch
quote

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I'm a firm believer in R+L=J. I think the problem is that with there being so much time in between each book, it's easy to start overthinking things, or to get bored with old theories and start exploring new ones. I haven't been in this fandom nearly as long as most of the people on here, and even still I'm finding myself overanalyzing the books all the time. I can only imagine what it's like for anyone who's been reading ASOIAF since the 90s. 

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L.E.B. - i read all (to date) the books before I watched the show (to season 4) and before I started reading (any internet/ this) message boards - so to cut to the point - i never ever ever thought that it could ever be L + R = J.
nope. never seemed plausible.  i have no proof or any thing further to add other than this, my opinion.

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On Invalid Date at 5:48 PM, Jon Snow Nothing said:

I would be very disappointed with that. Ned never thinks of Jon's mother, but he thinks a lot about Lyanna. If N+A=J, poor Jon Snow had a really cruel father who would take his son away from his mother and never mention her to him, or give him hints. The whole mystery surrounding Jon's parentage is what made him so sullen and melancholic. If his father took him away from his mother, never mentions her, raises him with a very hurt and resentful Catelyn, of course Jon would think she was some horrible whore.

This is some pretty convincing evidence to me that Lyanna is Jon's mother. During my first read of AGOT, the only thing I was 100% convinced of is that Ned is NOT Jon's father. When you pair that idea with how often Ned thinks about Lyanna, and his comment comparing Rheagar to Robert when it comes to brothels, and I feel sure that this is what George had planned - for the first 3 books at least. On later reads, I started to pick up on the thematic repetition and symbolism that further backs up this theory.

Now I think there are many other possibilities to his parentage (and I agree that the mystery surrounding Dany and (F)Aegon's births are meant to further derail us from being certain ) but still, none has more evidence to me that R+L=J.

As to OP's point about how much can we trust prophecy, I know RadioWesteros made a point recently that it sort of depends on where the prophecy is coming from. A prophecy by the GoHH is probably fairly reliable. I imagine the more straight forward the prophecy, the less we can rely on its accuracy - but maybe that is an over simplification. In the case of TPTWP and such, we are hearing different snippets from so many directions, I believe it will come true in an unexpected way.

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Not me, I think it is a very compelling argument and nothing else makes remotely the same amount of sense.

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? + Lyanna = Jon Snow. There I am sure. Ned mentioned several times that he made a promise to Lyanna shortly before she died, a promise he was determined to keep but haunted him over years. It appears obvious, that the child, Lyanna gave birth to just before she died was in the Center of this promise, and that this child was Jon. Ned grew angry when Catelyn tried to rise the question about Jon's mother, And many other hints (Jons look, Jon's dream of ebtering the crypts to find something there, Ned sending Jon to the wall).

As to "?": This is most probably Rhaegar (Lyanna was his captive, she shared his bed willingly or unwillingly).

It might also have been someone else (but I would put all my Gold on Rhaegar). Revealing the name of the man (if other than Rhaegar) would in any way have been very dangerous because it would have drawn Robert's wroth. Imagine e.g. Ser Arthur Dayne was the father - Robert would probably have turned to House Starfall.

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I suppose that Lyanna was gang raped by Rheagar and his paragons of chivalry, so Jon's parentage is impossible to determine.

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