If dany becomes queen, what would she change?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

if Jon arryn had carried out the orders of his king no matter how distasteful and dishonourable he would have saved the lives of thousands who died in the rebellions in doing so.

GRRM is that you? How nice to see you here!

[Yucef Menaerys]

1 hour ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Passive aggressive personal attack. How original *yawning*

No personal attack, was just stating a fact.

1 hour ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

The fact that you believe that doesn't make it true.

Well then we shall see when WoW finally comes out, i only reached my conclusions after having closely observed how her she behaves, her attitude, her beliefs and desire to make the lives of her subjects better, i'm not pulling things out of thin air or trying to white wash her. And if you really believe that dany will be worse than bat shit crazy Cersei and Joffrey then i don't know what to say.

1 hour ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Because she already had done it before.

How so? killing terrible horrendous murderers is genocide? please see my post to John Doe about the slavers, i'm sure most readers who read the books were applauding when dany ordered the execution of the slavers after having seen how they crucified children and left their bodies to rot in the sun.

1 hour ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

True she cares about them so much that she tortures them, makes their lives hell and then takes part of their money when they voluntarily sell themselves to slavery because she has destroyed their lives.

Please don't even try to bring up that point, because that is non-debatable every reader i know even those who hate dany beleives that dany in her own way/belief is trying to make things better, if you stick to this point then you'll risk going against what GRRM has shown us about dany wanting to make the lives of the smallfolk better, how on earth does she torture and make their lives hell? And don't try to bring up some obscure and isolated incident, give an example of dany torturing thousands of people since her subjects count in the hundreds of thousands, then and only then will i believe you. Stop pulling things out of thin air when it suits your agenda.

1 hour ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Unless you are GRRM you have no way to know it. Unless of course you are talking about your fan fiction.

I am not claiming to know anything, but every indication we have seen so far show that it is highly likely that dany is going to do all she can to increase the quality of life of the smallfolk, what indications am i talking about? freeing thousands of people from slavery, carrying out justice on tyrants and human right abusers i.e slavers etc

1 hour ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

That is what makes her a tyrant, when Egg was fighting for some primitive kind of democracy.

Are you for real? fighting to make the lives of smallfolk better is tyranny? please stop making childish comments like this, it really dumbs down the forum. And you will be deluded if you believe that Aegon V was trying to impose democracy which would mean that his family could lose the throne in the future.

1 hour ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

With this act she shows that she doesn't have a claim to Westeros anymore, she lost her claim when she fled from Dragonstone

That's BS you don't lose your claim by fleeing from death, the lannister king also lost his claim to casterly rock when he fled the field of fire, Edward IV of England also lost his claim to the english throne after he fled to Flanders, so did Pedro the cruel when he escaped his kingdom as well by your logic that is.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

25 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Well then we shall see when WoW finally comes out, i only reached my conclusions after having closely observed how her she behaves, her attitude, her beliefs and desire to make the lives of her subjects better, i'm not pulling things out of thin air or trying to white wash her. And if you really believe that dany will be worse than bat shit crazy Cersei and Joffrey then i don't know what to say.

And SB proves how moronic she is as a ruler.

25 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

How so? killing terrible horrendous murderers is genocide? please see my post to John Doe about the slavers, i'm sure most readers who read the books were applauding when dany ordered the execution of the slavers after having seen how they crucified children and left their bodies to rot in the sun.

Killing evil people is still evil. Killing 12 years old people because of who their parents were is evil. Killing people because of their culture when they were practising something that was never illegal is evil. She killed 163 people without knowing if they were those who killed those children, she killed them without a trial. Even an evil person  deserves a trial. She is a monster who killed some people who might be evil.  

25 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Please don't even try to bring up that point, because that is non-debatable every reader i know even those who hate dany beleives that dany in her own way/belief is trying to make things better, if you stick to this point then you'll risk going against what GRRM has shown us about dany wanting to make the lives of the smallfolk better, how on earth does she torture and make their lives hell? And don't try to bring up some obscure and isolated incident, give an example of dany torturing thousands of people since her subjects count in the hundreds of thousands, then and only then will i believe you. Stop pulling things out of thin air when it suits your agenda.

Is it a lie that she was taken money from the people who sold themselves to slavery because she destroyed their lives? Is it a lie that she ordered the torture of two most likely children?

25 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

I am not claiming to know anything, but every indication we have seen so far show that it is highly likely that dany is going to do all she can to increase the quality of life of the smallfolk, what indications am i talking about? freeing thousands of people from slavery, carrying out justice on tyrants and human right abusers i.e slavers etc

Again, SB proves you wrong.

25 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Are you for real? fighting to make the lives of smallfolk better is tyranny? please stop making childish comments, it really dumbs down the forum. And you will be deluded if you believe that Aegon V was trying to impose democracy which would mean that his family could lose the throne in the future.

And you stop personal attacks.

Imposing your beliefs on others with WMD is tyrany. Egg tried to deal with them without WMD.

25 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

That's BS you don't lose your claim by fleeing from death, the lannister king also lost his claim to casterly rock when he fled the field of fire, Edward IV of england also lost his claim to the english throne after he fled, so did Pedro the cruel when he escape his kingdom as well by your logic that is.

Then why the old woman had lost her house when she left?

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

You are missing the point again, my point is not that guest right is not sacred to the andals, my point is if Jon arryn had carried out the orders of his king no matter how distasteful and dishonourable he would have saved the lives of thousands who died in the rebellion in doing so. Do you belive the lives of two people are more important than the lives of thousands?

Your point when it involves Aerys is absurd. The Mad King was evil and people were no longer going to stand for it. Even though thousands died it was a worthy cause to them to end the reign of a tyrant. Just like it was a worthy cause for Dany to conquer Meereen and kill the Great Masters who ordered the deaths of the slave children on the road to Meereen. I mean theatrically if Dany never involved herself in the politics of Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen many people would not have died including the slave children the Great Masters killed in order to send Dany a message. Like Jon Arryn before her Dany chose to fight against tyranny even though people died and many of them were innocent and many more people will die in the coming battle for Meereen. 

However if by some weird chance Jon Arryn did decide to kill Eddard and Robert who knows who else Aerys would have ordered to be murdered? Stannis? Benjen? Renly? When is enough enough when it comes to the murder of innocent people? I mean Aerys did plan on burning King's Landing and everyone in to ashes.  He might have commanded the genocide of the entire North. After he killed the ruling Warden and his entire family could he really ever trust anyone from the North again in his paranoid state?
 

[Yucef Menaerys]

42 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

And SB proves how moronic she is as a ruler.

What's SB?

 

42 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Killing evil people is still evil. Killing 12 years old people because of who their parents were is evil. Killing people because of their culture when they were practising something that was never illegal is evil. She killed 163 people without knowing if they were those who killed those children, she killed them without a trial. Even an evil person  deserves a trial. She is a monster who killed people.

Better to kill evil people than to kill innocents. killing 12 years old people? i specifically remember dany ordering the unsullied to spare the children during the liberation of astapor. Those 163 people were slavers and the perpetrators were among them, and the others who didn't specifically order the crucifixions were fine with it, even if they weren't, they're still slavers, so they deserve to die, slavery is evil. They don't deserve a trial and remember this is the middle ages, if dany had wanted she could've slaughtered every living being in that city for opposing her just like many medieval kings did like Edward III, the black prince, Edward longshanks etc  and no one criticized them at the time, but what did dany do instead? she freed the slaves and carried out justice on the slavers, you call it genocide i call it justice.

 

42 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

And you stop personal attacks.

I'll try to be more careful in the future.

 

42 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Imposing your beliefs on others with WMD is tyrany. Egg tried to deal with them without WMD.

i'm sorry what beliefs? the belief that small folk deserve a better life? the belief that they deserve fair trials? you don't want that to happen? you'd rather they to continue to suffer their miserable lives? i say they deserve better. Also Aegon  badly wanted to have those "WMDs" he died trying to get one.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, Yucef Menaerys said:

What's SB?

Slaver's Bay.

Just now, Yucef Menaerys said:

Better to kill evil people than to kill innocents. killing 12 years old people? i specifically remember dany ordering the unsullied to spare the children during the liberation of astapor.

He ordered the death of 12 years old who wear tokar.

1 minute ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Those 163 people were slavers and the perpetrators were among them, and the others who didn't specifically order the crucifixions were fine with it, even if they weren't, they're still slavers, so they deserve to die, slavery is evil.

Yet before Dany slavery wasn't illegal in SB. Or do you mean that the Westerosi should had killed the Targs for their illegal actions?

2 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

They don't deserve a trial and remember this is the middle ages, if dany had wanted she could've slaughtered every living being in that city for opposing her just like many medieval kings did like Edward III, the black prince, Edward longshanks etc  and no one criticized them at the time, but what did dany do instead? she freed the slaves and carried out justice on the slavers, you call it genocide i call it justice.

If you don't see how this is evil I feel sorry for you.

3 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

i'm sorry what beliefs? the belief that small folk deserve a better life? the belief that they deserve fair trials? you don't want that to happen? you'd rather they to continue to suffer their miserable lives? i say they deserve better. Also Aegon also badly wanted to have those "WMDs" he died trying to get one.

Any belief, in order to be a good ruler you should change the society and not kill them to submission.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

40 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

please stop making childish comments like this, it really dumbs down the forum.

This is a bit of a hypocritical statement when your claiming Jon Arryn should have violated Guest right and murdered his innocent foster children Ned and Robert after Aerys burned Lord Rickard Stark alive in some sick joke of a trail by combat.

[Yucef Menaerys]

7 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Your point when it involves Aerys is absurd. The Mad King was evil and people were no longer going to stand for it. Even though thousands died it was a worthy cause to them to end the reign of a tyrant. Just like it was a worthy cause for Dany to conquer Meereen and kill the Great Masters who ordered the deaths of the slave children on the road to Meereen. I mean theatrically if Dany never involved herself in the politics of Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen many people would not have died including the slave children the Great Masters killed in order to send Dany a message. Like Jon Arryn before her Dany chose to fight against tyranny even though people died and many of them were innocent and many more people will die in the coming battle for Meereen. 

However if by some weird chance Jon Arryn did decide to kill Eddard and Robert who knows who else Aerys would have ordered to be murdered? Stannis? Benjen? Renly? When is enough enough when it comes to the murder of innocent people? I mean Aerys did plan on burning King's Landing and everyone in to ashes.  He might have commanded the genocide of the entire North. After he killed the ruling Warden and his entire family could he really ever trust anyone from the North again in his paranoid state?
 

The rebels were impatient, i'm not saying they were wrong in opposing Aerys but they could've waited for Rhaegar to depose his father, who would've been one of the greatest king to ever sit the iron throne, a king who fully realizes the threat of the others and who will prepare westeros to fight them, instead they got that sorry excuse of a king robert baratheon. Do you think the houses that fought for the royalist side did so because they believe Aerys was in the right? Nay, they were fighting for Rhaegars crown and the hope that one day he'll be king.

You never asked me what i think Jon Arryn should have done, if i were Arryn i'd call my banners and fortify the bloody gate and the eyrie, secure the vale against any attack, and then refuse Aerys' orders, and we know there's virtually no chance that the royalist would've been able to invade the vale give its defensive natural borders and the bloody gate which its said could repel an army a million strong. 

Dany and Arryn's situation were entirely different, the slaves had no one to protect them, while all Arryn should've done was wait for a couple of months for Rhaegar to carry out his coup and right all wrongs. And the rebels got greedy, at first they didn't start a war to seize the iron throne, they only wanted to protect themselves against Aerys and not give up Ned and Robert, seeing that they could usurp the rightful ruling family they took that chance like the usurpers they were. Im sure a nice and civil talk between Rhaegar and Jon Arryn would have resolved everything before it turned to war, he would've told Arryn not to worry since he'll soon depose his father and promise him to immediately rescind the mad king's orders.

[Yucef Menaerys]

9 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

This is a bit of a hypocritical statement when your claiming Jon Arryn should have violated Guest right and murdered his innocent foster children Ned and Robert after Aerys burned Lord Rickard Stark alive in some sick joke of a trail by combat.

Read my post above, i was only arguing that if he had killed Ned and Robert then far less people would've died which is absolutely true, i never said i believe he should've done so.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

13 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

snip

Your whole scenario is based on Arryn knowing what Rhaegar was planning. Which he would had known if Rhaegar wasn't a coward and hadn't abandoned everything to have sex with Lyanna.

[Yucef Menaerys]

22 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Slaver's Bay.

He ordered the death of 12 years old who wear tokar.

Yet before Dany slavery wasn't illegal in SB. Or do you mean that the Westerosi should had killed the Targs for their illegal actions?

If you don't see how this is evil I feel sorry for you.

Any belief, in order to be a good ruler you should change the society and not kill them to submission.

No she did not, this is what she actually said 

Quote

“Unsullied!” Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. “Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.”

Its hard to change a society when one group is exploiting another and the ones in power definitely don't want to lose their privileged position, they will not change, she has to break them as long as its for the greater good, the samllfolk have suffered for far too long, its time for change, no matter how bloody it might be. And who ever foolishly opposed Dany while full well knowing she has dragons brought it on himself. Do you think the lords gave up their right to the first night so because it was the right thing to do? They did it because they were afraid of Jahaerys' dragons, its the only way to make the nobility understand.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

26 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

The rebels were impatient, i'm not saying they were wrong in opposing Aerys but they could've waited for Rhaegar to depose his father, who would've been one of the greatest king to ever sit the iron throne, a king who fully realizes the threat of the others and who will prepare westeros to fight them, instead they got that sorry excuse of a king robert baratheon. Do you think the houses that fought for the royalist side did so because they believe Aerys was in the right? Nay, they were fighting for Rhaegars crown and the hope that one day he'll be king.

You never asked me what i think Jon Arryn should have done, if i were Arryn i'd call my banners and fortify the bloody gate and the eyrie, secure the vale against any attack, and then refuse Aerys' orders, and we know there's virtually no chance that the royalist would've been able to invade the vale give its defensive natural borders and the bloody gate which its said could repel an army a million strong. 

Dany and Arryn's situation were entirely different, the slaves had no one to protect them, while all Arryn should've done was wait for a couple of months for Rhaegar to carry out his coup and right all wrongs. And the rebels got greedy, at first they didn't start a war to seize the iron throne, they only wanted to protect themselves against Aerys and not give up Ned and Robert, seeing that they could usurp the rightful ruling family they took that chance like the usurpers they were. Im sure a nice and civil talk between Rhaegar and Jon Arryn would have resolved everything before it turned to war, he would've told Arryn not to worry since he'll soon depose his father and promise him to immediately rescind the mad king's orders.

Honesty it's hard to converse with you because you keep changing your thoughts, you went from Guest right is "probably not that big of a deal to Jon Arryn" to "it wasn't the point." Then you went from "If Jon Arryn would have killed Ned and Eddard thousands of lives would have been saved" to this here. 

Jon Arryn called his banners for a reason you can't go against a royal command and not be an enemy of the crown. He couldn't have just held up in the Eyrie and waited for things to play out because he has no idea where Rhaegar was or who he'll end up siding with. He had to give Ned a chance to go North and call his banners and give Robert a chance to go to the Stormlands and call his if the three of them had any chance of surviving. What he did was smart and it was part of the reason they won the the Rebellion. What you suggested would have gotten them all killed.

Rhaegar never tried to make peace with Jon Arryn, Ned Stark or Robert Baratheon at anytime he fought against them all in fact.

Dany and Jon Arryn both fought against what they thought was injustice. Jon Arryn protected Ned and Robert like Dany thought she was protecting the slaves.

[Yucef Menaerys]

6 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Your whole scenario is based on Arryn knowing what Rhaegar was planning. Which he would had known if Rhaegar wasn't a coward and hadn't abandoned everything to have sex with Lyanna.

Fair enough, then he should've done what i proposed and simply fortify the vale and refuse to carry out the mad king's orders.

OMG Rhaegar did not abandon everything to have sex with Lyanna, he did it because he believed himself having a child with a stark will be the only to save the world as that child will be the prince that was promised, people should be thanking Rhaegar, this action he did which he gets so much bad rap over may actually be what will save the world if Jon becomes Azor Ahai (which i believe he will)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

6 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

No she did not, this is what she actually said 

Its hard to change a society when one group is exploiting another and the ones in power definitely don't want to lose their privileged position, they will not change, she has to break them as long as its for the greater good, the samllfolk have suffered for far too long, its time for change, no matter how bloody it might be. And who ever foolishly opposed Dany while full well knowing she has dragons brought it on himself. Do you think the lords gave up their right to the first night so because it was the right thing to do? They did it because they were afraid of Jahaerys' dragons, its the only way to make the nobility understand.

Even in Westeros 12 years old are still children. Also do you really believe that the unsullied would had asked about the child's age?

Her actions were to order the death of children because of who their parent were and how rich they were.

As for the second part you are describing tyrany.

3 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Fair enough, then he should've done what i proposed and simply fortify the vale and refuse to carry out the mad king's orders.

And then Aerys would had ordered the deaths of Benjen, Stannis and Renly.

3 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

OMG Rhaegar did not abandon everything to have sex with Lyanna, he did it because he believed himself having a child with a stark will be the only to save the world as that child will be the prince that was promised, people should be thanking Rhaegar, this action he did which he gets so much bad rap over may actually be what will save the world if Jon becomes Azor Ahai (which i believe he will)

Not true. He thought that Aegon was tptwp, after he proved himself wrong about him being the savior, and only looked for a new baby making maschine only after Elia wouldn't had been able to have more. In a simple way, he had no way to know if his actions would had a good outcome. Even if he was right he shouldn't had run.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

12 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Fair enough, then he should've done what i proposed and simply fortify the vale and refuse to carry out the mad king's orders.

This still would have lead to war except Ned and Robert wouldn't have had a chance to call their banners. The milk was spilt, the glass was broken already. Lord Rickard was murdered, Rhaegar was gone with Lyanna MIA and Aerys was calling for the heads of two Lord Paramounts.

[Yucef Menaerys]

1 minute ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Honesty it's hard to converse with you because you keep changing your thoughts, you went from Guest right is "probably not that big of a deal to Jon Arryn" to "it wasn't the point." Then you went from "If Jon Arryn would have killed Ned and Eddard thousands of lives would have been saved" to this here. 

Jon Arryn called his banners for a reason you can't go against a royal command and not be an enemy of the crown. He couldn't have just held up in the Eyrie and waited for things to play out because he has no idea where Rhaegar was or who he'll end up siding with. He had to give Ned a chance to go North and call his banners and give Robert a chance to go to the Stormlands and call his if the three of them had any chance of surviving. What he did was smart and it was what part of the reason they won the the Rebellion. What you suggested would have gotten them all killed.

Rhaegar never tried to make peace with Jon Arryn, Ned Stark or Robert Baratheon at anytime he fought against them all in fact.

Dany and Jon Arryn both fought against what they thought was injustice. Jon Arryn protected Ned and Robert like Dany thought she was protecting the slaves.

 I never once changed my opinion during the entirety of this conversation, i still stand by what i said that if Arryn killed Ned and Eddard many lives would be saved BUT i do not believe that's what he should've done, two different things, don't try to mix them up.

No it absolutely would not have gotten them killed, because as I've said there's virtually no chance a royalist army could successfully invade the vale and punish Jon Arryn for refusing to carry put the king's orders.

Rhaegar fought the rebels only in self-defense, he didn't go out looking for them, they called their banners first and declared war.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

On 2017-05-22 at 6:42 AM, John Doe said:

Many more people would die, she'd be a terrible queen. 

Why the well being of the people seem to be what interests her the most.

[Yucef Menaerys]

1 minute ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

This still would have lead to war except Ned and Robert wouldn't have had a chance to call the their banners. The milk was spilt, the glass was broken already. Lord Rickard was murdered, Rhaegar was gone with Lyanna MIA and Aerys was calling for the heads of two Lord Paramounts.

What kind of war? the way i see it, Aerys may try to invade the vale and fail and just give up or maybe he will be deposed by Rhaegar before any of this even happened, and i don't think the starks would declare war against the IT as that would be extremely foolish, they'd be crushed beneath the weight of the realm with the exception of the Vale, and Stormlands. Rhaegar i'mm sure will try to make amends with Tywin, name him hand of the king and offer to marry Viserys or dany to a Lannister.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

 offer to marry Viserys or dany to a Lannister.

A second son wouldn't had been enough for Tywin. Also without the war Dany wouldn't had been alive.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

4 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

 I never once changed my opinion during the entirety of this conversation, i still stand by what i said that if Arryn killed Ned and Eddard many lives would be saved BUT i do not believe that's what he should've done, two different things, don't try to mix them up.

No it absolutely would not have gotten them killed, because as I've said there's virtually no chance a royalist army could successfully invade the vale and punish Jon Arryn for refusing to carry put the king's orders.

Rhaegar fought the rebels only in self-defense, he didn't go out looking for them, they called their banners first and declared war.

You just stated that if Jon Arryn killed Robert and Ned thousands of lives would be saved. Then asked if two lives were more important then thousands and never expanded on anything which heavily implies that's what you thought. Then you waited after three posts and said what "he should have done" which wouldn't have worked anyway.

What you suggested is not a long term solution. If Jon Arryn defies Aerys orders and calls his banners like you suggested would the Vail just be left alone until the end of time? Rhaegar is mia and Jon Arryn and the rest of the realm believed he kid napped Lyanna because Rhaegar never said anything different. At some point Aerys is going to march on the Vale and lay siege to Eyrie. Then what?