If dany becomes queen, what would she change?

[WSmith84]

3 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Yeah but Dany never claimed to not have usurped the great pyramid, that's the point, meanwhile Robert deluded himself into thinking he was a legitimate king and some posters here are trying to defend that, if Robert admitted that he was a traitorous usurper then I wouldn't hate him much 1

And I'm simply telling you that you can't compare the ownership of a mere house with that of a throne, which the Targaryens made themselves and have owned for 300 years. Anyway I can't defend Dany on every point as I do not beeline she's perfect and I'm more accepting of her mistake than that of other characters since she's just a small girl who's only just being exposed to politics, with time she will learn, she's learning quite well as of now. 2

 

The victor writes history, Dany can command for Robert's reign to be scrapped from every book, record or paper. Similar to how Aegon II declared that his traitorous half-sister must be removed from records and not recognised, even though she was a queen who had real power unlike Viserys. That would be fitting end to the usurperous Baratheons who destabilised the continent and gave Westeros the most incomptent king to ever sit the iron throne. 3

1 - I don't recall Dany ever claiming or admitting to have usurped the pyramid of Meereen.

2 - And I'm asking why they are different. The woman's family might have lived in that house for generations, they might have even built it. What makes a throne different? At what point does something become forfeitable when you flee it? A throne, a city, a castle, a keep, a house, a sword etc.?

3 - I'd argue Aegon the Unworthy and Aerys II were both worse than Robert (which I believe George agrees with in an SSM). Also, Aerys started the war, not the Baratheons, so really it's the Targaryens who destabilized the continent.

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

The highlords accepted Robert because there was no longer any Targaryen claimant availabl, Viserys and Dany were missing at the time. But the most important highlords (the Targaryens) did not recognize him, which still makes his right by conquest claim not complete. And some of those very highlords were conspiring against Robert like the Martells. 

Let me give this another turn, do you belive that the Boltons are the legitimate lords of the north? Many lords of the north swore fealty to them as well, but many people don't accept them, a lot of the lords are also against them but they played along with the mummers farce. Words are wind. The people that recognised Robert did so because they had to, and some of them will rebel against Robert in a heartbeat. 

The Targs were not the most important lords (only in their own minds, as usual) once Robert won the war and was crowned king with all major high lords swearing fealty to him. So no one gives a rat's arse that two kids living in exile didn't bend the knee to him. 

The Boltons are not lords of the north, as in, there's no such title. They're lords, and from the north, that's it. As of now Roose is Warden of the North since he was appointed by the crown and the other northerners swore them fealty. Do I believe they'll remain in this position? Fuck no. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 (only in their own minds, as usual)

And the minds of their fans. Why do you bother tho? Haven't you seen that it is speaking with close minded haters is fruitless?

[Lord Varys]

The claim of the members of a royal dynasty never disappears unless those members themselves reject those claims or the members of the dynasty all die. Such are the rules of monarchies and monarchistic societies. Westeros is no different in this regard than any of the real world monarchies. Countless royal descendants continued to pretend to this or that throne just as many actual monarchs included royals titles referring to holdings or countries they had long since lost. And many of those regained thrones they previously lost. The Stuarts were restored to the British throne after the death of Cromwell and the Bourbons were restored to the throne of France after the end of Napoleon.

Neither Queen Rhaella nor King Viserys III or Queen Daenerys I gave up their claims to the Iron Throne of Westeros, so they still have that claim and can push it.

If it was not very easy and to be expected that the Targaryens would be restored to the Iron Throne one way or another Robert wouldn't be as afraid as he is of Viserys III and his Dothraki allies as he actually is.

And this is certainly not only the case for the Targaryens. The Northmen also feel very strongly about the Starks. Wyman Manderly and others have bent the knee to King Tommen but that gesture of submission is worth nothing. When a Stark comes to claim Winterfell they will follow, just as the Targaryen loyalists all across the Realm will soon declare for Aegon.

Robert would also not care about the fact that quite a few lords still call him usurper if that fact wasn't, you know, important.

Robert was a charismatic warrior-king who developed into a fat drunkard who disgraced himself and his crown. His 'justice' was a joke, his government corrupt, and his way of life beggaring the Crown. The idea that this man would have been able to mount a strong resistance against any outside threat or inspire the younger generation to fight for him as the people had done fifteen years ago. Just look what Jon and Sansa think about this fat man. They are disgusted by him, and rightfully so.

[Philokles]

2 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

The victor writes history, Dany can command for Robert's reign to be scrapped from every book, record or paper. Similar to how Aegon II declared that his traitorous half-sister must be removed from records and not recognised, even though she was a queen who had real power unlike Viserys. That would be fitting end to the usurperous Baratheons who destabilised the continent and gave Westeros the most incomptent king to ever sit the iron throne.

And that worked well didn't it. Nobody has ever heard of this Rhaenyra..

If Dany tries it, there would at least be scope for a good sitcom - "History has known many great liars - Copernicus... Goebbels... St. Ralph the Liar. But there have been none quite so vile as the Targaryen queen Daenerys."

[kissdbyfire]

Robert Baratheon, as shit a king as he was, is nowhere near the worst king the 7K ever had, and to even suggest that is pretty laughable and desperate.

[Lord Varys]

A victor himself doesn't write history. Historians do. And they continue to do so after the monarch in question has died. The crucial work on any historical figure is done in the years and decades immediately after his or her death. That's when the historians shape the standard image of a monarch or head of state. Work continues later on, of course, but in that crucial time the lasting image is created and all the later work is working on that - either reinforcing or criticizing it.

Now, of course there are court historians and the life in a monarchy, which means that the standard image of a monarch will in no small degree dependent how the successors of that monarch want to see their predecessor(s). But that works only up to a point. A tyrant cannot be reinvented as a just or exemplary king by some historians, at least not in a society where historians actually are historians writing history (and not blatantly inventing stuff).

The practice to erase entire kings or reigns from history doesn't seem to be common in Westeros. If that was the case Jaehaerys I would have reshaped his father Aenys I into an exemplary king and would also have erased his uncle Maegor from history in favor of his two elder brothers, 'the true and rightful kings Aegon II and Viserys I'. But nothing of this sort happened.

It is different if a new dynasty is founded or another permanently toppled in civil war. Then a new narrative is created, one that is continued and upheld as long as that dynasty reigns. That can qualify as the victor writing history. The arguments or merits of the loser in such a war are quickly forgotten or survive only in distorted fashion. But they are not completely erased from history. Damnatio memoriae is no thing in the middle ages. And even in the cultures where it was a thing it seldom worked all that effectively.

We can reasonably expect that Daenerys might count her brother Viserys III as the rightful king of Westeros and legitimate successor of her own father, King Aerys II, but she won't be able to erase Robert from history.

But it is quite clear that the Baratheon interregnum will lose all legitimacy in the wake of a Targaryen restoration, be it King Aegon VI Targaryen or Queen Daenerys I Targaryen. That is inevitable. They will create a narrative of Targaryen continuity leading from Aerys II through Viserys III to Aegon VI and Daenerys I. The Baratheons became pretenders and usurpers and - in the case of Cersei's children - outright frauds.

The case of Rhaenyra is actually rather interesting. Aegon II decreed that she was no queen but that didn't change the facts. She sat the Iron Throne and she was the chosen heir of her father Viserys I. And this fact is recognized by the historians writing about her. Both Yandel and Gyldayn refer to her as 'Queen Rhaenyra' from the moment she is crowned on Dragonstone until the day she dies there. Whether she is listed as queen in some official kings list or not is not all that relevant.

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Robert Baratheon, as shit a king as he was, is nowhere near the worst king the 7K ever had, and to even suggest that is pretty laughable and desperate.

Nobody has said he was. Robert was certainly a better king than both Aegon the Unworthy (the worst king in Westerosi history according to George himself) and Maegor the Cruel. But that's it. His sole good quality was that he wasn't cruel and had no bad or evil intentions. But he didn't care about being a good ruler, and he knew how bad the people running his court and council were, and did nothing to stop or replace him. That makes him very bad in my book. Aerys II was a madman but Robert doesn't have such an excuse.

[kissdbyfire]

@Lord Varys, perhaps you missed this:

   3 hours ago,  Yucef Menaerys said: 

The victor writes history, Dany can command for Robert's reign to be scrapped from every book, record or paper. Similar to how Aegon II declared that his traitorous half-sister must be removed from records and not recognised, even though she was a queen who had real power unlike Viserys. That would be fitting end to the usurperous Baratheons who destabilised the continent and gave Westeros the most incomptent king to ever sit the iron throne.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Lord Varys, perhaps you missed this:

   3 hours ago,  Yucef Menaerys said: 

The victor writes history, Dany can command for Robert's reign to be scrapped from every book, record or paper. Similar to how Aegon II declared that his traitorous half-sister must be removed from records and not recognised, even though she was a queen who had real power unlike Viserys. That would be fitting end to the usurperous Baratheons who destabilised the continent and gave Westeros the most incomptent king to ever sit the iron throne.

I read that, I was referring to both you and @Yucef Menaerys without making that explicit enough.

[Graydon Hicks]

now, i feel i have to make point to all those who say that daenerys will be a horrible queen. i dont agree, and its not just because i like her. i feel what she is sorely lacking in a experience, both administrative and political. she definitely has the will, the strength of personality, to rule, but she doenst know how to rule. all of her previous experience in how leaders are supposed to act, are in her brother viserys's ramblings about what he would do when he became king, his demands and whims and tales of the targaryen kings of the past, and how drogo behaved among the dothraki, which was about strength of personility and arms, his own casualness towards certain behaviors that most civilizations consider unacceptable. its not that she is emulating them, but that with those as her only personal examples, she doesnt have that many forms of rule to follow. we know jorah is trying to teach her a little bit, and that tyrion is likely to prove invaluable, with his experience as a competent administrator, but she was never really raised or taught the ways of rule, the ways of king or queenship, the way the heirs of the westerosi houses were. shes having to learn on the go. 

but she will not be weak queen, i can be sure of that. she's not going to let others do all the decision making for her, the way several of her ancestors did, and she is not going to back down from a decision she makes, even when her whole small council disagrees with her over it. this doesnt mean she will be a good or bad queen, just that she will be strong one. and if she can bring herself to listen to her advisors before she makes a decision, then hopefully she can doing something disastrous.

[kissdbyfire]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I read that, I was referring to both you and @Yucef Menaerys without making that explicit enough.

So? I said  "Robert wasn't the worst" (as bad as he was); you said, "no one is saying that". But  since someone did say that, I thought you might have missed that post. 

[BalerionTheCat]

I will not say Daenerys is a bad person. I believe she would be very much like Jon if she had been born a bastard, raised by a man of honor like Ned. Had maester Aemon, Qhorin Halfhand or Donal Noye for teaching what sacrifice is. But GRRM has not written that. Most of those around her are either incompetent or traitors playing her. Why would that change? And she doesn't see that ruling people in general is not much different from owning them, from owning slaves. She looks much at what she want, less at what her people desire (which is probably peace ASAP).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

11 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

"History has known many great liars - Copernicus... Goebbels... St. Ralph the Liar. But there have been none quite so vile as the Targaryen queen Daenerys."

And her story will end something like:
So now, the wage of sin is paid,

The blade is still, the black steed worm grazes.

The only sound across the glade,

is Edmund Barri pushing up the daisies.

Black Adder,Dany Black Adder! Ew Dany!

A shame about the plan.

Black Adder,Dany Black Adder! Ew Dany!

farewell you horrid man lass.

 

Paraphrasing Blackadder of course.

[SeanF]

On ‎6‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 9:14 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

now, i feel i have to make point to all those who say that daenerys will be a horrible queen. i dont agree, and its not just because i like her. i feel what she is sorely lacking in a experience, both administrative and political. she definitely has the will, the strength of personality, to rule, but she doenst know how to rule. all of her previous experience in how leaders are supposed to act, are in her brother viserys's ramblings about what he would do when he became king, his demands and whims and tales of the targaryen kings of the past, and how drogo behaved among the dothraki, which was about strength of personility and arms, his own casualness towards certain behaviors that most civilizations consider unacceptable. its not that she is emulating them, but that with those as her only personal examples, she doesnt have that many forms of rule to follow. we know jorah is trying to teach her a little bit, and that tyrion is likely to prove invaluable, with his experience as a competent administrator, but she was never really raised or taught the ways of rule, the ways of king or queenship, the way the heirs of the westerosi houses were. shes having to learn on the go. 

but she will not be weak queen, i can be sure of that. she's not going to let others do all the decision making for her, the way several of her ancestors did, and she is not going to back down from a decision she makes, even when her whole small council disagrees with her over it. this doesnt mean she will be a good or bad queen, just that she will be strong one. and if she can bring herself to listen to her advisors before she makes a decision, then hopefully she can doing something disastrous.

I don't think that Dany will be a mediocre ruler.

I think she'll either be very good or very bad.

She is magical and plainly has a huge role to play in world history.  She has a mix of good qualities (courage, intelligence, compassion, a conscience ) and bad ones (cruelty, arrogance, impulsiveness).  Her coin is still spinning.

[SeanF]

If Dany wins, I imagine that Maester Yandel will completely rewrite the most recent chapters of his chronicle.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't think that Dany will be a mediocre ruler.

I think she'll either be very good or very bad.

She is magical and plainly has a huge role to play in world history.  She has a mix of good qualities (courage, intelligence, compassion, a conscience ) and bad ones (cruelty, arrogance, impulsiveness).  Her coin is still spinning.

And the bold, I was thinking exactly that only yesterday...

[The Commentator]

On 6/24/2017 at 5:46 PM, kissdbyfire said:

The Targs were not the most important lords (only in their own minds, as usual) once Robert won the war and was crowned king with all major high lords swearing fealty to him. So no one gives a rat's arse that two kids living in exile didn't bend the knee to him. 

The Boltons are not lords of the north, as in, there's no such title. They're lords, and from the north, that's it. As of now Roose is Warden of the North since he was appointed by the crown and the other northerners swore them fealty. Do I believe they'll remain in this position? Fuck no. 

If you believe the Baratheons are legitimate rulers because of the right of conquest then the Boltons are also the legitimate paramounts of the North. Because they defeated the Starks.  You can't have it both ways and I know from your posts that you are a Stark loyalists.  The Baratheons can't be rightful without the Boltons being rightful.  Both justify their rights due to conquest and victory.

Daenerys and Viserys Targaryen have just as much, if not more,rights to rule the Seven Kingdoms than the Starks do to in the North.

The Targaryens are the most prominent and the most important family in Westeros and in Essos (By the way, I do not consider Jon a Targaryen).  The calendar is based on the arrival of their ancestor, the highest monetary denomination is called "Golden Dragon", not "golden direwolf".

[HaeSuse]

3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

If you believe the Baratheons are legitimate rulers because of the right of conquest then the Boltons are also the legitimate paramounts of the North. Because defeated the Starks.  You can't have it both ways and I know from your posts that you are a Stark loyalists.  

Daenerys and Viserys Targaryen have just as much, if not more,rights to rule the Seven Kingdoms than the Starks do to in the North.

It is not legitimate to murder your rightful lord. It is especially not so to do that under the protection of having eaten of their bread and salt. The Baratheons rebelled, fought a war, and won it. The Boltons murdered Rob and Cat and their men. Not war. 

 

You can have that one both ways.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

If you believe the Baratheons are legitimate rulers because of the right of conquest then the Boltons are also the legitimate paramounts of the North. Because defeated the Starks.  You can't have it both ways and I know from your posts that you are a Stark loyalists.  

Daenerys and Viserys Targaryen have just as much, if not more,rights to rule the Seven Kingdoms than the Starks do to in the North.

No, Roose Bolton is Warden of the North b/c he was appointed to the position by the crown, which I clearly stated in my post. 

[The Commentator]

3 minutes ago, HaeSuse said:

It is not legitimate to murder your rightful lord. It is especially not so to do that under the protection of having eaten of their bread and salt. The Baratheons rebelled, fought a war, and won it. The Boltons murdered Rob and Cat and their men. Not war. 

 

You can have that one both ways.

You're the one trying to have it both ways.  

Jaime murdered the king he was sworn to protect.  That is not legitimate.  

The fact is, those anti-Targaryens who believe Robert is the legitimate ruler because of right of conquest and also believe the Starks retained rights to Winterfell are wrong.  You cannot have it both ways.