Is the Northern Rebellion based off of the US Civil War?

[Praetor Xyn]

48 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

As have been said by others, you have a much better case for US civil war history when it comes to Daenerys and her war in the east.

Indeed, I was confused when I read the topic title as I thought the two wars were being confused.

[HoodedCrow]

In the end, an author synergizes their experiences, knowingly, or even unconsciously.

J.R.R. Tolkien denied that LOTR was an analogy of the First World War. Yet, it could not help being informed by the war that he fought in and his friends died in. He was probably even influenced by the Manichaeian faiths input into Catholic Church ideas about Good and Evil as well as the Norse Mythology he studied.

Martin as an author is going to be impacted by the history that he loves, deliberately or not. While I don't think the American Civil war is a great match for the King in the North war in Westeros, there are probably some elements in there, as I doubt Martin is ignorant about the American Civil war.

Just as a wild speculation, in my humble opinion, I'll say Robbs war is  50% Wars of the Roses, 35 %  Bonnie Prince Charlie's Jacobite battles, 10% Every War and 5% American Cvil war. Somebody who is a student of wars may have a better opinion:)

[GyantSpyder]

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

Just as a wild speculation, in my humble opinion, I'll say Robbs war is  50% Wars of the Roses, 35 %  Bonnie Prince Charlie's Jacobean battles, 10% Every War and 5% American Cvil war. Somebody who is a student of wars may have a better opinion:)

Useless fun fact time!

The Scottish Catholic rebels in the late 1600s and 1700s, source of romantic literature and song, were the Jacobites.

The later era of Shakespeare, in the early 1600s, after death of Queen Elizabeth, characterized by its heavy, uncomfortable furniture, lively theater scene, and the King James Bible, was the Jacobean era.

The hard-core Reign of Terror dudes during the French Revolution were the Jacobins.

Useless fun fact time over!

[HoodedCrow]

Smiles at GyantSpyder.

[Traverys]

I was cringing when I saw this was about the Civil War and told myself: just read it but don't respond. I just wanted to say that I'm impressed that everyone is having a civilized/respectuful and informed conversation (minus one poster) about this topic.

On 5/24/2017 at 4:15 PM, Protagoras said:

As have been said by others, you have a much better case for US civil war history when it comes to Daenerys and her war in the east.

I would have to disagree with this. Daenerys' purposes have little in common with those of the American Civil War outside of the fact they are both focused or revolved around slavery. The why is in stark (pun?) contrast, however. I know you only said you could make a much better case for Daenerys, but I figured someone else is gonna discuss this so may as well be me.

Depending on who you ask, Daenerys is either conquering Slaver's Bay in order to liberate slaves or something else (no need to get into that). So, in essence, she began an altruistic war. What I mean by that is a war whose aggressor is motivated by selfless reasons; personal gain is not the primary motivation.

When you get into the nuances of the Civil War it make both sides far from altruistic. Both sides are not something a modern American can be proud of when it comes down to it, but we can be proud that it finally led to the abolishment of slavery. A history professor at a HBU once told me: Slavery was the focus of the Civil War, but neither side gave a shit about the slaves.

Warning: If anyone compares Daenerys to Abe Lincoln I'll have to harm a kitten.

[HoodedCrow]

Steals kittens. Abe Lincoln had freeing slaves in common with Daenerys!

Otherwise she has more in common with Alexander the Great.:}

[Protagoras]

On 2017-05-26 at 9:18 PM, Traverys said:

I was cringing when I saw this was about the Civil War and told myself: just read it but don't respond. I just wanted to say that I'm impressed that everyone is having a civilized/respectuful and informed conversation (minus one poster) about this topic.

I would have to disagree with this. Daenerys' purposes have little in common with those of the American Civil War outside of the fact they are both focused or revolved around slavery. The why is in stark (pun?) contrast, however. I know you only said you could make a much better case for Daenerys, but I figured someone else is gonna discuss this so may as well be me.

Depending on who you ask, Daenerys is either conquering Slaver's Bay in order to liberate slaves or something else (no need to get into that). So, in essence, she began an altruistic war. What I mean by that is a war whose aggressor is motivated by selfless reasons; personal gain is not the primary motivation.

When you get into the nuances of the Civil War it make both sides far from altruistic. Both sides are not something a modern American can be proud of when it comes down to it, but we can be proud that it finally led to the abolishment of slavery. A history professor at a HBU once told me: Slavery was the focus of the Civil War, but neither side gave a shit about the slaves.

Warning: If anyone compares Daenerys to Abe Lincoln I'll have to harm a kitten.

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2015/02/01-laboratory-of-politics-part-vi/noscript.html

[Traverys]

7 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Steals kittens. Abe Lincoln had freeing slaves in common with Daenerys!

Otherwise she has more in common with Alexander the Great.:}

Doh! Master evil plan foiled again! The problem with saying they both freed slaves is that freeing them was not really Abe's original intention as a president. I don't claim to be a scholar of history (and especially not the Civil War) in its entirety; I approach history in regards to people, culture, beliefs, etc. rather than troop numbers, battles, tactics or whatever else. However, Lincoln is a particularly fascinating person to me. Reading his letters and speeches, it's abundantly clear how much he hated the institution of slavery on moral grounds but took a political stance that opposed its expansion. His objective as president was to save the union, not to free slaves (even though he found the practice abhorrent).

This is probably quoted way too much, but at least I'm not using it out of context: 

Quote

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it byI freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."

Letter to Horace Greeley, (1862)

So yes, Daenerys and Lincoln both freed slaves but the reason why is so completely different it's silly to me it's silly to compare. Daenerys did it because she was personally opposed (and probably projecting her own feelings onto them) and Lincoln did it because it was the only way he could preserve the Union. It may not seem like an important difference to some, but the difference in their motivation is the difference between an irresponsible and responsible leader.

 

1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2015/02/01-laboratory-of-politics-part-vi/noscript.html

This essay is interesting, thanks for sharing. However, the majority of the parallels provided are heavily skewed towards American Reconstruction and very little about events prior to and during the Civil War. My stance was that I was opposed to comparing Daenerys to the Union during the Civil War, especially in terms of motivation and methods. Casting the north as the saviors of the oppressed is comparable to the south recasting themselves as the victims of "Northern aggression." Both have a truth to them when you cover one eye and squint the other, but otherwise they are glossing over important realities. Like I said in the previous post: The war was about slavery, but neither side gave a shit about the slaves. The common north citizen wasn't looking down and thinking "Oh, those poor, wretched slaves. Free Slaves!" but rather "I don't want to compete with southern plantations in our new western territories. Stop the expansion of slavery!"

As much as I dislike Daenerys as a person and a leader, she obviously gives a shit about the slaves.