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Various questions and comments re: archived threads


Aemon Targaryen

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Some basic questions/comments have come to mind in reading archived threads, and I'm listing them here.  I hope they are of some interest.  Answers, of course, would be welcome and appreciated.

1.  Is there something resembling a consensus that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar?  Is it RLJ level (>60%) or AJT level (<40%)? 

2.  If Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, why did she never reveal herself to Dany or take a more direct role with Dany rather than glass candles?  [this might've lessened the drama of Dany's development, so I don't mean author/writer based reasons, but rather character reasons -- why would Shiera Seastar not have stayed physically close to Dany and introduced herself and overtly helped her?

3.  Once Melisandre learns of the birth of Dany's dragons, why doesn't she rush on the next boat to her?

4.  This is a really lame comment.  In re-reading the pronunciation thread, I finally found some evidence that GRRM hears "Arya" as pronounced in two syllables as "ARE-ya", rather than how I had always heard it in mind and as it is pronounced on the show - "AH-ree-ah".  The meaning of "arya" never quite made sense to me - aria as in a beautiful solo song - well, the solo bit perhaps. But the "ARE-ya" pronunciation could directly link to the identity theme - as in who are ya? See, I told you it was lame.

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25 minutes ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

Some basic questions/comments have come to mind in reading archived threads, and I'm listing them here.  I hope they are of some interest.  Answers, of course, would be welcome and appreciated.

1.  Is there something resembling a consensus that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar?  Is it RLJ level (>60%) or AJT level (<40%)? 

2.  If Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, why did she never reveal herself to Dany or take a more direct role with Dany rather than glass candles?  [this might've lessened the drama of Dany's development, so I don't mean author/writer based reasons, but rather character reasons -- why would Shiera Seastar not have stayed physically close to Dany and introduced herself and overtly helped her?

3.  Once Melisandre learns of the birth of Dany's dragons, why doesn't she rush on the next boat to her?

4.  This is a really lame comment.  In re-reading the pronunciation thread, I finally found some evidence that GRRM hears "Arya" as pronounced in two syllables as "ARE-ya", rather than how I had always heard it in mind and as it is pronounced on the show - "AH-ree-ah".  The meaning of "arya" never quite made sense to me - aria as in a beautiful solo song - well, the solo bit perhaps. But the "ARE-ya" pronunciation could directly link to the identity theme - as in who are ya? See, I told you it was lame.

More to be added.

1. No, not really.

2. If she is Shiera Seastar would it be helpful to reveal who she is to Dany? Shiera would be about Bloodraven's age and, therefore, not immediately identifiable to Dany. Hell, Dany would probably not believe her. If I were a 120-year-old woman, I wouldn't bother trying to convince someone of that.

3. Has Melisandre learned of Dany's dragons? I don't remember that happening.

4. Maybe.

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35 minutes ago, bent branch said:

1. No, not really.

2. If she is Shiera Seastar would it be helpful to reveal who she is to Dany? Shiera would be about Bloodraven's age and, therefore, not immediately identifiable to Dany. Hell, Dany would probably not believe her. If I were a 120-year-old woman, I wouldn't bother trying to convince someone of that.

3. Has Melisandre learned of Dany's dragons? I don't remember that happening.

4. Maybe.

Re: 2 - but presumably she would be able to convince Dany that she was talking to a fellow Targaryen, especially as Targaryens are Dany's number one focus and she could also do with a wise mother figure?  Probably if she had become  Melisandre to Dany's Stannis, that would have been too repetitive.  And, I agree, in explaining who she truly was and her true age, she would probably have to reveal her magic to make it plausible -- though I don't see why she wouldn't or couldn't do that.  ETA - obviously, Quaithe might not be Shiera and this lack of logic seems to be an argument against it.

Re: 3 - I also don't remember that happening.  The question is why on Planetos does she not know?  This is one of those basic questions that is either a really good one or a really dumb one, and I'm thinking the latter, but it still doesn't make sense to me.  Melisandre should be able to see the dragons in her fires by now.  There's probably an obvious answer to this, which I hope to find in my current re-read.

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5.  What happened to Rhaegar's body?

6.  Do we know that Ned told Lyanna that Rhaegar had died, or is this a necessary inference of Lyanna making Ned promise to raise her son as his son -- i.e. Ned told her that the war was over, Robert had won and had killed Rhaegar?

7.  Do we know that Ned took Lyanna's body back to Winterfell?  (is this the necessary inference that Howland and Ned only build 8 cairns for the 3 KG and their 5 dead companions, rather than a 9th for Lyanna?)

 Tinfoil based on above questions -

It doesn't make obvious sense to me that Eddard Stark, of all people, takes it upon himself to alter a tradition of only the Lord of Winterfell being buried in the crypts.  Maybe Brandon makes sense, given that he died almost at the same time as his father Rickard. But it seems to me a complete stretch to add a woman.  It suggests, to me, that Lyanna at the ToJ also made Ned promise to take her body back to Winterfell, or that he make a place for her there.  So Lyanna also asking Ned to do that seems the best explanation to me.  But if so, why did Lyanna do that? Why would she be so concerned about that?  

[edited to make timeline sense - duh - Rhaegar is already dead when Ned promises Lyanna]

That, in turn, leads to me suspect that she wanted either Rhaegar himself to be buried there, or at least for something to be put there that referred to Rhaegar and indicated that she was a true princess, properly married to the true heir of the Iron Throne, Rhaegar. 

It's at least possible that the change in the statute tradition may relate to Ned's promise -- if only that Lyanna would have wanted there to be perpetual proof, for the sake of her son whom her prince said was Azor Ahai, of the fact that she was never dishonoured (as she would have been, in her own eyes by the way, if she had been forced to marry Robert) and that her child was trueborn. Re: this last point -- this may give resonance to Robert's statements in the Crypts at Winterfell:

"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore. "What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!"

The bolded suggest a typical GRRM literalism/irony -- that down there is in fact the evidence that Rhaegar was honourable towards Lyanna and that Lyanna always retained her honour.

Of further note is the unbolded section above ... did the Others in fact "take" the Stark's honor??

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8.  Was Rhaegar's martial prowess entirely based on glamouring/magic?  Is that what the true significance of the rubies in his armour was -- magic a la Melisandre?  And is that why the falling of the rubies is so intimately linked with Robert's strike at him -- i.e. Rhaegar could only be defeated once the rubies were 'disarmed' first, and it was the subsequent blows once he was 'disarmed' that killed him -- thus creating the 'truth' that Robert's single blow that collapsed his rubied chest was the 'true' killer blow?

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9.  Who else was there in the TOJ (apologies if this is obvious, I have yet to read all the TOJ threads).

i.e. who is the "they" in the quote from AGOT below?

It's re: TOJ - when Ned is remembering with Robert in AGOT he says "

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." ... Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.
 
Don't we find out later in AGOT that it was 7 vs 3, and that only Ned and Howland Reed survived?  If so, how could it be more than one person who found him still holding her body?  Ned wouldn't have been able to see Bran surely.  So there was someone else there?
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I won't keep editing posts, but re: 9 ... it is, of course, speculation but it seems that Lyanna may have had at least one midwife present, who may have been a woman linked with the Daynes and perhaps specifically linked to Ashara Dayne.

Nevertheless, the "they" is striking given how GRRM reiterates that of the named people only Howland and Ned survived the ToJ.  So the "they" at least confirms that someone else is there in the room with Ned, the dead Lyanna and Howland .... well, unless the baby is being counted as a person, but that wouldn't make sense in the phrase "They had found him still holding her body ...".

Spoiler

This also fits with the show, where there is at least one midwife I think in the room.

 

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3 hours ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

Re: 2 - but presumably she would be able to convince Dany that she was talking to a fellow Targaryen, especially as Targaryens are Dany's number one focus and she could also do with a wise mother figure?  Probably if she had become  Melisandre to Dany's Stannis, that would have been too repetitive.  And, I agree, in explaining who she truly was and her true age, she would probably have to reveal her magic to make it plausible -- though I don't see why she wouldn't or couldn't do that.  ETA - obviously, Quaithe might not be Shiera and this lack of logic seems to be an argument against it.

Re: 3 - I also don't remember that happening.  The question is why on Planetos does she not know?  This is one of those basic questions that is either a really good one or a really dumb one, and I'm thinking the latter, but it still doesn't make sense to me.  Melisandre should be able to see the dragons in her fires by now.  There's probably an obvious answer to this, which I hope to find in my current re-read.

Re: 2- Like I said, I think taking the time to try to convince Dany she is a supposedly long dead relative is waste of time. I wouldn't do it even if I were Shiera.

Re: 3- One of Melisandre's biggest problems seems to be her visions don't tell her when or where. She may have seen the dragons, but believes they are yet to come. The best example I can think of to illustrate what I mean is when she sees Bloodraven and Bran in a vision. Notice how the vision is of something current, but yet very symbolic. If Melisandre has seen the dragons, she may not know how they relate.

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1 hour ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

5.  What happened to Rhaegar's body?

6.  Do we know that Ned told Lyanna that Rhaegar had died, or is this a necessary inference of Lyanna making Ned promise to raise her son as his son -- i.e. Ned told her that the war was over, Robert had won and had killed Rhaegar?

7.  Do we know that Ned took Lyanna's body back to Winterfell?  (is this the necessary inference that Howland and Ned only build 8 cairns for the 3 KG and their 5 dead companions, rather than a 9th for Lyanna?)

 Tinfoil based on above questions -

It doesn't make obvious sense to me that Eddard Stark, of all people, takes it upon himself to alter a tradition of only the Lord of Winterfell being buried in the crypts.  Maybe Brandon makes sense, given that he died almost at the same time as his father Rickard. But it seems to me a complete stretch to add a woman.  It suggests, to me, that Lyanna at the ToJ also made Ned promise to take her body back to Winterfell, or that he make a place for her there.  So Lyanna also asking Ned to do that seems the best explanation to me.  But if so, why did Lyanna do that? Why would she be so concerned about that?  

[edited to make timeline sense - duh - Rhaegar is already dead when Ned promises Lyanna]

That, in turn, leads to me suspect that she wanted either Rhaegar himself to be buried there, or at least for something to be put there that referred to Rhaegar and indicated that she was a true princess, properly married to the true heir of the Iron Throne, Rhaegar. 

It's at least possible that the change in the statute tradition may relate to Ned's promise -- if only that Lyanna would have wanted there to be perpetual proof, for the sake of her son whom her prince said was Azor Ahai, of the fact that she was never dishonoured (as she would have been, in her own eyes by the way, if she had been forced to marry Robert) and that her child was trueborn. Re: this last point -- this may give resonance to Robert's statements in the Crypts at Winterfell:

"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore. "What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!"

The bolded suggest a typical GRRM literalism/irony -- that down there is in fact the evidence that Rhaegar was honourable towards Lyanna and that Lyanna always retained her honour.

Of further note is the unbolded section above ... did the Others in fact "take" the Stark's honor??

5. It was cremated. This is per an SSM.

6. We don't know what Ned said to his sister. Except for "Promise me" we don't know what Lyanna said.

7.Lyanna's body was prepared by the Silent Sisters and returned to Winterfell. ALL Starks are buried in the crypts. The only way Ned broke tradition was having a statue of Lyanna made. He also broke the tradition for Brandon. Is it significant? Probably? Maybe? Either way, the promise Lyanna wanted probably did not relate to the handling of her remains.

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3 minutes ago, bent branch said:

5. It was cremated. This is per an SSM.

6. We don't know what Ned said to his sister. Except for "Promise me" we don't know what Lyanna said.

7.Lyanna's body was prepared by the Silent Sisters and returned to Winterfell. ALL Starks are buried in the crypts. The only way Ned broke tradition was having a statue of Lyanna made. He also broke the tradition for Brandon. Is it significant? Probably? Maybe? Either way, the promise Lyanna wanted probably did not relate to the handling of her remains.

Thanks bent branch - especially for the point that all Starks are buried in the crypts, and that it was just the statue.  But still it does raise the question - if the statues are only for the true rulers of the North, going back to the Kings of Winter, Brandon and Lyanna do not deserve a statue.  They would still be honoured, by being  buried there, even if there are no statues.  

It can be said that having a statue of Lyanna conformed to that tradition if she at least was married to the true heir of the whole kingdom.  But what of the basis of Brandon? He was never the Stark in Winterfell, never Lord of Winterfell.  I guess it fits Ned's psychology re: "Brandon should have been Lord of Winterfell, not me", but it doesn't fit with the tradition.

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16 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Re: 3- One of Melisandre's biggest problems seems to be her visions don't tell her when or where. She may have seen the dragons, but believes they are yet to come. The best example I can think of to illustrate what I mean is when she sees Bloodraven and Bran in a vision. Notice how the vision is of something current, but yet very symbolic. If Melisandre has seen the dragons, she may not know how they relate.

Fair enough, but this is a point I will be closely scrutinising on my re-read.  My overall impression (probably affected by the show), was that at some point most of Westeros knows of Daenerys and her dragons.  And one would think that, of all people, Melisandre would know -- either through literally being informed or through her visions or both.

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7 minutes ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

Fair enough, but this is a point I will be closely scrutinising on my re-read.  My overall impression (probably affected by the show), was that at some point most of Westeros knows of Daenerys and her dragons.  And one would think that, of all people, Melisandre would know -- either through literally being informed or through her visions or both.

Be very careful about letting the show influence how you understand the books. They are very different beasts now and I doubt you can get any insight from either of them about the other.

In the books, Jon doesn't get the news (gossip?) about the dragons until pretty far into ADWD. Jon hears about the dragons from Tycho Nestoris. This can be considered the first the Wall is hearing about them. Since Melisandre is at the Wall, we can't consider her to have heard from a natural source until this point. Like I said before, visions and their interpretation are very shaky things.

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3 hours ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

Thanks bent branch - especially for the point that all Starks are buried in the crypts, and that it was just the statue.  But still it does raise the question - if the statues are only for the true rulers of the North, going back to the Kings of Winter, Brandon and Lyanna do not deserve a statue.  They would still be honoured, by being  buried there, even if there are no statues.  

It can be said that having a statue of Lyanna conformed to that tradition if she at least was married to the true heir of the whole kingdom.  But what of the basis of Brandon? He was never the Stark in Winterfell, never Lord of Winterfell.  I guess it fits Ned's psychology re: "Brandon should have been Lord of Winterfell, not me", but it doesn't fit with the tradition.

Ned's the Lord. Lord's can do what they want, if he wants to have statues for his siblings then he would. 

"His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

I kind of doubt there are any rules about this, it would be the prerogative of the current ruler of Winterfell. And no. I doubt this is a hint about Lyanna being married as this is public knowledge. Robert clearly knew about it. If people in the fandom could jump to that conclusion then the people of Westeros would have and Ned was charged with keeping Jon's birth a secret. 

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7 hours ago, bent branch said:

5. It was cremated. This is per an SSM.

6. We don't know what Ned said to his sister. Except for "Promise me" we don't know what Lyanna said.

7.Lyanna's body was prepared by the Silent Sisters and returned to Winterfell. ALL Starks are buried in the crypts. The only way Ned broke tradition was having a statue of Lyanna made. He also broke the tradition for Brandon. Is it significant? Probably? Maybe? Either way, the promise Lyanna wanted probably did not relate to the handling of her remains.

We do know a little more about what Lyanna said to Ned.  She asked him to take her remains back to Winterfell and to bury her in the crypts. "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king.  "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."  

This also means that Ned told her that he had recovered Brandon's and Rickard's bones and that he was sending them to Winterfell (or that they had been sent to Winterfell previously).  

 

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