U.S. education under attack?

[MerenthaClone]

2 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

That's way to much. If 10-15% of your diet is what I consider literal poison, that's just a countdown until when you are going to need even more money for your healthcare. Technically a bag of Doritos can save someones life on the brink of starvation but I don't want to pay ANYTHING for that to be a regular part of your diet. I don't eat like that.

I, too, think that the poors should be denied any form of joy from their food.  Nothing but efficient drudgery for you, serf.

 

2 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 In my mind, eating out is a luxury. That's something you do when you're flush. 

Ask me about my occasional 15 hour work days (before commute) for 6+ days in a row.  I can try to make food beforehand, but I frankly don't have enough room in the fridge for that since I'm splitting a 2.5 bedroom apartment with three people.  Eating out isn't always a luxury, especially for the people who are trying to work two jobs to afford to live.  

e:  Maybe we shouldn't demonize and condemn people for having the moral weakness and temerity to try and enjoy something on our dollar, is all I'm saying.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, MerenthaClone said:

Ask me about my occasional 15 hour work days (before commute) for 6+ days in a row.  I can try to make food beforehand, but I frankly don't have enough room in the fridge for that since I'm splitting a 2.5 bedroom apartment with three people.  Eating out isn't always a luxury, especially for the people who are trying to work two jobs to afford to live.  

I get that there are exceptions, but honestly I think this is another exaggerated argument at the end of the day. The period of my life that I could most relate to being concerned about finances to the degree that I could imagine what it might be like to being on EBT/Food Stamps, was when I first moved out of my parent's house. I was 19, had a full-time job, and was going to school full-time. I moved into an apartment with a good friend, and my budget margins were razor thin. If I prepared my own meals 6 days a week, I could probably afford to eat out for one meal a week. My free time was at a premium, but my finances demanded that I use a fair amount of it to prepare my own food if I wanted to eat and cover gas and housing. In my experience eating out is a convenience or luxury 9 times out of 10. You do it when you can afford to do it.

I believe that a safety net is an integral part of any civilized society. I believe that it is important, and I don't begrudge those who need it, but there have to be some sensible limits to it.  

[DunderMifflin]

26 minutes ago, MerenthaClone said:

I, too, think that the poors should be denied any form of joy from their food.  Nothing but efficient drudgery for you, serf.

Yes, and you know who else I would like to take away a hyper sense of food=joy connections that can't be replaced by anything but sugar and whatever that powdery film of stuff is on potato chips from? People who are not poor. Meaning everyone.  

Also, serfs? really? Orange Soda and Pringles are the delicacy of the upper class now

Quote

Ask me about my occasional 15 hour work days (before commute) for 6+ days in a row.  I can try to make food beforehand, but I frankly don't have enough room in the fridge for that since I'm splitting a 2.5 bedroom apartment with three people.  Eating out isn't always a luxury, especially for the people who are trying to work two jobs to afford to live.  

e:  Maybe we shouldn't demonize and condemn people for having the moral weakness and temerity to try and enjoy something on our dollar, is all I'm saying.  

I'm not condemning anyone, I just don't want to pay for that. When the only argument is that you deprive the poor of the joy of eating shit food that eventually leads to health problems I think thats weak.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

10 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I think some small percentage should be reasonably allowed. Say 10-15%. But the overall goal should be to provide nutrition, so I do think it's reasonable to limit choices insofar as that goes.

Also, the less people get in food stamps, the more they have to rely on cheaper, highly processed foods. On top of this, it is so Republican to moralize about how people spend the money given to them to help. It's like when you're down on your luck, borrow some money, and when you use it, you're afraid the person you borrowed from will find out you're doing something nice for yourself for once here or there. It's no one's business. The entitlement is handed out.

Food education is more important than this rampant moralizing. If someone can walk into a store and buy Mountain Dew, then someone on foodstamps should be able to as well. If someone on EBT though, were to buy fresh fruit, healthy options, etc., I can guarantee their benefits would last about 2 weeks.

Whenever I was on EBT during my hardest days of school, I had to research very carefully the best ways to get the healthiest foods for my son and I. Most people don't do this--and they aren't bad, immoral, or whatever. If the government puts in some rule/exemption on the benefit, it ALWAYS affects things the person could use or need that wasn't intended to be categorized. It's a mess. I really hate the moralizing though. People who have enough, who live okay, they look down at those in need. Make up arguments like "all they buy are Cheetos and Mountain Dew with my tax dollars" or "how dare they buy New York Strips with my tax dollars." Bunch of assholes.

[Jo498]

Isn't the food problem a tangent here? Unless one believes that too much sugar (or whatever) leads to ADS or similar concentration problems, this is not directly related to education. But it also seems to be an example of something so screwed up that band-aids will not help much. How can it be that highly processed foods are cheaper than simple fruit, rice, potatoes and vegetables? Is this an effect of subsidies? How can markets be so dysfunctional that there are "food deserts" in one of the most affluent and developed regions on earth? Shouldn't one fix these things first before debating on whether food stamps are good for soft drinks? (If one was really interested in improving popular health one should ban most soft drinks but this would obviously be an infringement on basic liberties, like a speed limit on the autobahn...)

[Seli]

14 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, I get where you're coming from, and I'm sure there are good examples of true food deserts where it is only reasonable to allow foer EBT/Food Stamps to be used for Fast Food and the like. The thing is, I see this in my own community where there is no reasonable argument for it, IMHO. For example the McDonald's up the street from my house is right across the street from a major supermarket, and they accept EBT. If you're on EBT/Food Stamps, and you're eating at McDonalds with any sort of regularity, you're not being financially responsible. In my mind, eating out is a luxury. That's something you do when you're flush. 

This is an example why one should always do a complete analysis and don't jump to conclusions.

We need to consider cost of preparation, cost of storage, time available, etc etc etc.

[DunderMifflin]

2 hours ago, Seli said:

This is an example why one should always do a complete analysis and don't jump to conclusions.

We need to consider cost of preparation, cost of storage, time available, etc etc etc.

Why? No one is doing that for the thread topic of budget cuts. It's just immediately "racist, poor people haters!!!"

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

5 hours ago, Seli said:

This is an example why one should always do a complete analysis and don't jump to conclusions.

We need to consider cost of preparation, cost of storage, time available, etc etc etc.

Sure, all those factor in, but preparing your own food is always going to be cheaper and more cost effective, and generally healthier.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

6 hours ago, Jo498 said:

Isn't the food problem a tangent here? Unless one believes that too much sugar (or whatever) leads to ADS or similar concentration problems, this is not directly related to education. But it also seems to be an example of something so screwed up that band-aids will not help much. How can it be that highly processed foods are cheaper than simple fruit, rice, potatoes and vegetables? Is this an effect of subsidies? How can markets be so dysfunctional that there are "food deserts" in one of the most affluent and developed regions on earth? Shouldn't one fix these things first before debating on whether food stamps are good for soft drinks? (If one was really interested in improving popular health one should ban most soft drinks but this would obviously be an infringement on basic liberties, like a speed limit on the autobahn...)

Yeah, we totally got off the education track here. My apologies for that. On a related note, I think it might be a really good idea for our schools to offer a finance class that teaches folks how to balance a personal budget and the like. 

[IamMe90]

2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Sure, all those factor in, but preparing your own food is always going to be cheaper and more cost effective, and generally healthier.

If you live in a big family and have a good amount of cold storage space, sure. If you are a single person living within a large inner city, who can't drive, not true. The amount of calories I can get out of buying something like ramen in bulk compared to the amount of food I can feasibly make and store for myself before it goes bad is not even close. 

Disgusting? Sure. But you seem to be making almost purely a "people aren't budgeting efficiently enough" type argument, which I'd say is not necessarily true. Even McDonalds, while foul shit, is pretty calorically packed and inexpensive.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, IamMe90 said:

If you live in a big family and have a good amount of cold storage space, sure. If you are a single person living within a large inner city, who can't drive, not true. The amount of calories I can get out of buying something like ramen in bulk compared to the amount of food I can feasibly make and store for myself before it goes bad is not even close. 

Disgusting? Sure. But you seem to be making almost purely a "people aren't budgeting efficiently enough" type argument, which I'd say is not necessarily true. Even McDonalds, while foul shit, is pretty calorically packed and inexpensive.  

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about pre-packaged foods like Ramen or canned soup, those are some of the staples that I lived off of when I was living check to check. When I say "prepare your own food" I'm not talking about 3 course meals from scratch here.

My foundational strategy was to buy a 5 dozen blister pack of eggs (I worked at Costco at the time, so this cost me about $3.50) a loaf of bread, peanut butter, a blister pack of salami, some cheese, some fresh fruit and vegetables, things like the aforementioned bulk Ramen and soup, and maybe some frozen chicken.

 I'd boil up a couple dozen of the eggs, alternate between the peanut butter and salami for sammiches, throw in a piece of fresh fruit, and you've got lunches for the week. It got boring as hell, but I could feed myself very cheaply.

I can't see cold storage being an issue with this strategy. Me and my roommate had one relatively small Refrigerator/Freezer. I don't know. It just seems really financially irresponsible to me to use EBT for Fast Food. If I had say $150 worth of Food Stamps a month at that time in my life, I could've freed up that amount from my razor thin budget to allocate to other things.  

[MerenthaClone]

15 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Sure, all those factor in, but preparing your own food is always going to be cheaper and more cost effective, and generally healthier.

Time and storage are also factors consistently ignored by people, though.  You're right, but I've definitely made the calculation that if I pick up overtime on my food-prep/shopping day for the week, I make more money on that day than I lose by not cooking my own food.  Remember, I can't store a week's worth of food either.  I can't store more than maybe three days worth.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, MerenthaClone said:

Time and storage are also factors consistently ignored by people, though.  You're right, but I've definitely made the calculation that if I pick up overtime on my food-prep/shopping day for the week, I make more money on that day than I lose by not cooking my own food.  Remember, I can't store a week's worth of food either.  I can't store more than maybe three days worth.  

Sure, I get that there are reasonable exceptions. The fact that you've done the math in regards to time spent preparing food versus time you could be working shows that you have carefully considered the economics of your situation. I think that there are a lot of folks who don't bother to do that math, and it's kind of befuddling to me..

[MerenthaClone]

10 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Sure, I get that there are reasonable exceptions. The fact that you've done the math in regards to time spent preparing food versus time you could be working shows that you have carefully considered the economics of your situation. I think that there are a lot of folks who don't bother to do that math, and it's kind of befuddling to me..

Right, but why this attitude that the people who we've decided need help only can get help in certain ways?  Why the assumption that without your guiding hand, that people would just descend into an orgy of fast food bacon grease?  It took maybe 30 seconds figure out my overtime vs foodprep decision.  I think I'm just arguing from the position that its just weirdly patronizing to think that a lot of people don't "bother" to do that math, when maybe they're just prioritizing other things.  Like, I can totally see someone prioritizing fast food over making a meal because then they have some free time to spend playing with their kid, for instance.  Not an economically or healthily ideal decision, but I certainly won't begrudge them that.  Or, for that matter, general leisure.  I think having some level of personal time is goddamn crucial to sanity and humanity and its kind of ignored by people as a whole.  

e:  I am 100% in favor of finance and home-ec classes throughout school, though.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, MerenthaClone said:

Right, but why this attitude that the people who we've decided need help only can get help in certain ways?  Why the assumption that without your guiding hand, that people would just descend into an orgy of fast food bacon grease?  It took maybe 30 seconds figure out my overtime vs foodprep decision.  I think I'm just arguing from the position that its just weirdly patronizing to think that a lot of people don't "bother" to do that math, when maybe they're just prioritizing other things.  Like, I can totally see someone prioritizing fast food over making a meal because then they have some free time to spend playing with their kid, for instance.  Not an economically or healthily ideal decision, but I certainly won't begrudge them that.  

I agree that I'm picking nits to some degree. I'm not suggesting that a majority of folks on Food Stamps abuse it, I'm saying that I find the EBT option for Fast Food (particularly in my community) to be a wasteful one. 

And yeah, I agree with your last example there. I'm not going to judge someone who takes that trade, I'm just not sure how often that sort of trade is truly being made.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 I guess my main point in playing Devil's Advocate here in regards to Welfare in general is that I think some reasonable compromise can be found on this issue. I am totally onboard with the foundational Liberal argument here. We should be concerned with providing a fair, baseline quality of life for everyone in our society. I think that is a necessity. That said, I think some of the Conservative push back is reasonable, and we should also seek to address it instead of simply hand-waving it away, as DunderMifflin and the like have pointed out. That's all. There is a middle ground to be found here, and as a basically democratic society, we should seek it out.

[maarsen]

Education about how to eat  nutritional meals and on preparing them is still education.  Education on this subject and many others is how you get an informed public. Thomas Jefferson,  whatever failings he may have had, realized this. Education is important. The right to free speech is the basis of a good educational system. Not spending money on education is a means of abridging the rights of the people to freedom of thought and speech.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

9 hours ago, Jo498 said:

Isn't the food problem a tangent here? Unless one believes that too much sugar (or whatever) leads to ADS or similar concentration problems, this is not directly related to education. But it also seems to be an example of something so screwed up that band-aids will not help much. How can it be that highly processed foods are cheaper than simple fruit, rice, potatoes and vegetables? Is this an effect of subsidies? How can markets be so dysfunctional that there are "food deserts" in one of the most affluent and developed regions on earth? Shouldn't one fix these things first before debating on whether food stamps are good for soft drinks? (If one was really interested in improving popular health one should ban most soft drinks but this would obviously be an infringement on basic liberties, like a speed limit on the autobahn...)

I agree, and I'll round this back to my original point about the programs most likely to be affected by the education cuts: something like Head Start which educates family on just how important it is to keep children on healthy diets. Head Start provides more than before/after school supervision, it feeds kids, educates them (and their families) beyond school topics in areas such as nutrition/health. These programs are so important.

Now the other portion of the problem--highly processed foods being cheaper? I don't know how that gets fixed. It is a mess. And again, people complain when poor people buy good, nice food with food stamps too--which, who cares? But something has to be done there. When I struggled on foodstamps while in school, I was lucky enough to be pointed to the food bank--I could go once a week and fill up on a number of items, which freed up my foodstamp budget for more nutritional, healthy items for my son and I. I don't know how other states approach this kind of thing--I live in a fairly progressive town, in a state that has become progressive over the years.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

2 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, we totally got off the education track here. My apologies for that. On a related note, I think it might be a really good idea for our schools to offer a finance class that teaches folks how to balance a personal budget and the like. 

As far left as I am, I read a book my super conservative David Ramsey called the Total Money Makeover. I hated the cover, I thought I'd hate him, but honestly--the book was full of good advice I'd wished I had since I was 20 years old (not 35 and wallowing in debt!). He isn't about beating you up for your mistakes, but he outlines a clear plan on how to get out of debt, how much to save, and he provides free budget sheets on his website and says it is imperative to create a budget every single month. When I was still teaching, I had paid off all my credit cards, was doing great--then I jumped into this PhD thing and things unraveled. My fault. But I'm going to go back and get it on track. The point is--his advice isn't so extraordinary.

I wish when I first applied for food stamps, college student or not, I had been given this book/mentored/or allowed to register for a class that would help me with budget. The sooner the better.

Edit: Here is a state run example of Devos' proposed school choice system. Overseen by Indiana's Mike Pence! What the vouchers did? Allowed people already attending private schools to now go to private schools on tax payer money for the most part. Some changes happened happened though:

"This shift in the program's rules, begun by Pence in 2013, has led to a shift in student demographics as well. White voucher students are up from 46 percent that first year to 60 percent today, and the share of black students has dropped from 24 percent to 12 percent. Recipients are also increasingly suburban and middle class. A third of students do not qualify for free or reduced-price meals."

But again, to say this is racism would be wrong according to Dundermifflin and his buds. In fact, it'd be to liken them to Hitler or the Klan! I think the concept of systemic racism has alluded them.

Anyway. States rights and school of choice at work.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

As far left as I am, I read a book my super conservative David Ramsey called the Total Money Makeover. I hated the cover, I thought I'd hate him, but honestly--the book was full of good advice I'd wished I had since I was 20 years old (not 35 and wallowing in debt!). He isn't about beating you up for your mistakes, but he outlines a clear plan on how to get out of debt, how much to save, and he provides free budget sheets on his website and says it is imperative to create a budget every single month. When I was still teaching, I had paid off all my credit cards, was doing great--then I jumped into this PhD thing and things unraveled. My fault. But I'm going to go back and get it on track. The point is--his advice isn't so extraordinary.

I wish when I first applied for food stamps, college student or not, I had been given this book/mentored/or allowed to register for a class that would help me with budget. The sooner the better.

Yeah, most of it (up to true wealth building) is just common sense. I was fortunate in that I had a job at a fairly early age. Just a simple paper route, but it required that you did a balance sheet. You knew how much you owed to the distributor, and how much your customers owed you. I don't get how people can claim to not understand how credit works. It's simple math that everyone should have in their toolbox by the time you're in say 5th grade. Living beyond your means comes with a multiplier penalty (interest). Once that multiple reaches a certain percentage of your income/budget, you are screwing yourself. It's a simple matter of computing your income versus your expenditures and reacting accordingly. It amazes me how many adults seem to be ignorant when it comes to personal finance.