The Hungry Mouth of Rivers:Manderlys and Merlings

[hiemal]

The Maderlys are associated with appetite above all else. Lord Too-Fat-To-Sit-A-Horse travels with a moveable feast that puts even Ilyrio to shame and mentions of his two sons in the text are likewise always accompanied by mentions of food, eating, and the need to eat. Most disturbing of all, we have three incidents of cannibalism in our Song so far. Perhaps that should not be a surprise given their sigil, the Merling King- who dwells in the deep and feasts on all those who drift down to him and his children and on those who they lure to their deaths on shoals and reefs.

Why is a House linked twice with rivers represented by a deep sea King? The Merman's Court depicts a scene from the ocean's depths, not a river bottom, and kraken and leviathan instead of  crab and turtle.

House Manderly's course seems to shaped by its conflicts with House Peake. I am reminded of Aeron's conversation with Victarion in which he speaks of waves, mountains, and pebbles. The river has shifted its bed but seems to be still nibbling away at the mountain.

Why do the Manderly's keep alive the "Order of the Green Hand"?

Breaking down the cannibalism:

The Frey pies were motivated by a hunger for a vengeance and mythically tied to the Rat Cook/Philomela. Side note on Philomela- I am convinced that this myth also ties into the tapestries that Littlefinger is having delivered from the Red Keep and possibly the secret of Valyrian Steel and to the ongoing nightingale theme in general.

Wylis Manderly ate the Goat, but probably without knowing what he was eating. It is worth noting that Euron claims to have fed his captive warlocks a similar diet.

Lady Donella Hornwood ate her own fingers in the extremity of her starvation, or at least is said to have done so. The unpleasant symbolism of that act speaks for itself, I think.

Why are they so hungry? Bring me your tinfoil and theories, insights and intuitions!

Here we go:

1. House Manderly was displaced from the Stormlands by Durran Godsgrief as semi-immortalized in the legendary founding of Storm's End. They fled to the Riverlands and changed their names but not their sigil. They were offered sanctuary by Garth or his descendant and offered their loyalty in exchange for something. They maintain that commitment despite House Gardner's extinction and thus the knightly order.

2. The same thing, but with MERMAIDS! The legends of Storm's End are at least partially literally true. Arya mentions the Merling King with someone called the Moon-Pale Maiden. Godsgrief's bride was their literal daughter. The Manderlys eat human flesh because that's just something they do- another bounty from the water and from the Merling King.

3. The Manderly's are the descendants of the union between Garth Greenhand and the Merling Queen. They were charged with maintaining a connection between land and sea and thus the Green Hand.

Chime in!

 

[Daendrew]

Quote

Willas Manderly ate the Goat, but probably without knowing what he was eating.

I think I missed this one. Could you please point out where this was stated in the text?

[hiemal]

5 minutes ago, Daendrew said:

I think I missed this one. Could you please point out where this was stated in the text?

When Jaime revisists Harrenhall and discusses the hostages with Raff the Sweetling and Shitmouth in AFfC. It amused the Mountain to carve Hoat up bit by bit feed him both to himself to the hostages. Wylis was said to have eaten the largest portion because he was always begging for food.

[Daendrew]

26 minutes ago, hiemal said:

When Jaime revisists Harrenhall and discusses the hostages with Raff the Sweetling and Shitmouth in AFfC. It amused the Mountain to carve Hoat up bit by bit feed him both to himself to the hostages. Wylis was said to have eaten the largest portion because he was always begging for food.

3

Thanks

 

Quote

Ser Wylis, a bushy-faced tub of suet with dull eyes and sallow, sagging jowls. When Jaime told him that he would be escorted to Maidenpool and there put on a ship for White Harbor, Ser Wylis collapsed into a puddle on the floor and sobbed longer and louder than Pia had. It took four men to lift him back onto his feet. Too much roast goat, Jaime reflected. 

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https://asearchoficeandfire.com

[White Ravens]

Most instances of cannibalism in the books are associated with the desperation of hunger or an act of revenge or sadism. The Goat and Wylis Manderly ate Goat while being held prisoner by a sadistic fuck and may not have even known that they were eating human flesh.  Bran and Co. appear to have been fed long pig (human flesh) by Coldhands without being told what they were eating. Stannis punishes some of his men for eating flesh from someone who had died while they were so desperately hungry as to be starving.  Euron kills one of the four warlocks he captures and feeds him to the other three because he is a sick fuck.  Donella Hornwood ate her own fingers after being locked up and starved and was likely completely insane by the time she did it.  Those are all acts of ignorance and/or desperation.  And I suppose you might even argue that Wyman Manderly's act of cannibalism was also one of desperation driven by his lust for vengeance on his enemies and the only way he could have the satisfaction of seeing the Frey's eat their own people was to trick them into doing it by demonstrating his own willingness to eat the same pie he was offering them.  Again, a very desperate act. 

And I don't see that much of a stretch to imagine why the Manderlys still associate with the sea.  White Harbour is situated at the mouth of the White Knife River with command of a protected harbour on the coast of the Narrow Sea.

Edit:  The text explains that the Manderlys used to rule a castle on the Mander River named Dunstonbury but I can't find where it was located on the river.  Given their connection with mermaids and sea imagery we might assume that they were at the mouth of that river too.  But then again maybe they started associating with the sea once they relocated to White Harbor about 1,000 years ago.

[The Fattest Leech]

Pork, pork, and more pork. What's with all of the pork???

By the laws of the skinchangers & wargs, to eat human flesh while in an animal is also an abomination. Both Bran and Arya have committed this rule breaker.

• A Feast for Crows - Arya II

(possibly this one as she is awake Arya???)

The dead were never hard to find. They came to the House of Black and White, prayed for an hour or a day or a year, drank sweet dark water from the pool, and stretched out on a stone bed behind one god or another. They closed their eyes, and slept, and never woke. "The gift of the Many-Faced God takes myriad forms," the kindly man told her, "but here it is always gentle." When they found a body he would say a prayer and make certain life had fled, and Arya would fetch the serving men, whose task it was to carry the dead down to the vaults. There acolytes would strip and wash the bodies. The dead men's clothes and coins and valuables went into a bin for sorting. Their cold flesh would be taken to the lower sanctum where only the priests could go; what happened in there Arya was not allowed to know. Once, as she was eating her supper, a terrible suspicion seized hold of her, and she put down her knife and stared suspiciously at a slice of pale white meat. The kindly man saw the horror on her face. "It is pork, child," he told her, "only pork."

• A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl

  Her nights were lit by distant stars and the shimmer of moonlight on snow, but every dawn she woke to darkness.
  She opened her eyes and stared up blind at the black that shrouded her, her dream already fading. So beautiful. She licked her lips, remembering. The bleating of the sheep, the terror in the shepherd's eyes, the sound the dogs had made as she killed them one by one, the snarling of her pack. Game had become scarcer since the snows began to fall, but last night they had feasted. Lamb and dog and mutton and the flesh of man. Some of her little grey cousins were afraid of men, even dead men, but not her. Meat was meat, and men were prey. She was the night wolf. But only when she dreamed.

• A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

(This is also while Bran is awake, and it ain't pig)

Behind her, Hodor was tearing eagerly at a chunk of hot charred flesh as blood and grease ran down into his beard. Wisps of smoke rose from between his fingers. "Hodor," he muttered between bites, "hodor, hodor." His sword lay on the earthen floor beside him. Jojen Reed nipped at his own joint with small bites, chewing each chunk of meat a dozen times before swallowing.

The ranger killed a pig. Coldhands stood beside the door, a raven on his arm, both staring at the fire. Reflections from the flames glittered off four black eyes. He does not eat, Bran remembered, and he fears the flames.

• A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

  "Hodor." Hodor clapped his hands together.
  "Jojen just needs to eat," Bran said, miserably. It had been twelve days since the elk had collapsed for the third and final time, since Coldhands had knelt beside it in the snowbank and murmured a blessing in some strange tongue as he slit its throat. Bran wept like a little girl when the bright blood came rushing out. He had never felt more like a cripple than he did then, watching helplessly as Meera Reed and Coldhands butchered the brave beast who had carried them so far. He told himself he would not eat, that it was better to go hungry than to feast upon a friend, but in the end he'd eaten twice, once in his own skin and once in Summer's. As gaunt and starved as the elk had been, the steaks the ranger carved from him had sustained them for seven days, until they finished the last of them huddled over a fire in the ruins of an old hillfort.

However, aside from the common cannibalism for revenge, most of the time in real life history, and in myth, it was done as a belief that you consume the power of what/who you ingest, which is why the chance of Jojen paste being true is a real, bonafide possibility. It also parallels the "singer's stew" in King's Landing pot shops where you can get a bowl of brown.

• A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

  "For the next step. For you to go beyond skinchanging and learn what it means to be a greenseer."
  "The trees will teach him," said Leaf. She beckoned, and another of the singers padded forward, the white-haired one that Meera had named Snowylocks. She had a weirwood bowl in her hands, carved with a dozen faces, like the ones the heart trees wore. Inside was a white paste, thick and heavy, with dark red veins running through it. "You must eat of this," said Leaf. She handed Bran a wooden spoon.
  The boy looked at the bowl uncertainly. "What is it?"

I guess, for me, it depends on the situation and the "reasoning" behind it. Is it revenge for some? Absolutely. It is a way to ingest the powers of another in order to increase your own (in belief)? Most definitely. Is it a means for survival in desperate situations? Yes, yes it is.

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, White Ravens said:

Edit:  The text explains that the Manderlys used to rule a castle on the Mander River named Dunstonbury but I can't find where it was located on the river.  Given their connection with mermaids and sea imagery we might assume that they were at the mouth of that river too.  But then again maybe they started associating with the sea once they relocated to White Harbor about 1,000 years ago.

Good point. The Merman's Court seems out of place in Dunstonbury. Maybe a "hobbit's court".

Or Glastonbury Tor and all that goes with it...

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, White Ravens said:

Most instances of cannibalism in the books are associated with the desperation of hunger or an act of revenge or sadism. The Goat and Wylis Manderly ate Goat while being held prisoner by a sadistic fuck and may not have even known that they were eating human flesh.  Bran and Co. appear to have been fed long pig (human flesh) by Coldhands without being told what they were eating. Stannis punishes some of his men for eating flesh from someone who had died while they were so desperately hungry as to be starving.  Euron kills one of the four warlocks he captures and feeds him to the other three because he is a sick fuck.  Donella Hornwood ate her own fingers after being locked up and starved and was likely completely insane by the time she did it.  Those are all acts of ignorance and/or desperation.  And I suppose you might even argue that Wyman Manderly's act of cannibalism was also one of desperation driven by his lust for vengeance on his enemies and the only way he could have the satisfaction of seeing the Frey's eat their own people was to trick them into doing it by demonstrating his own willingness to eat the same pie he was offering them.  Again, a very desperate act.

 

Could be desperation, but I read Wyman as savoring every crumb and relishing his joke. He didn't need to bother. He could have let the missing stay missing forever, swallowed by the North but he chose to eat them himself and to share his hot-weasel pie with more of their stoatish kin.

It could be that coming North has made the Manderlys savage, but perhaps all of this long-pork is pointing to figurative or literal merling heritage- much like Lord Borrel who lures ships to their doom so he can scavenge the wreckage like crabs on a carcass.

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 had sustained them for seven days, until they finished the last of them huddled over a fire in the ruins of an old hillfort.

However, aside from the common cannibalism for revenge, most of the time in real life history, and in myth, it was done as a belief that you consume the power of what/who you ingest, which is why the chance of Jojen paste being true is a real, bonafide possibility. It also parallels the "singer's stew" in King's Landing pot shops where you can get a bowl of brown.

• A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

  "For the next step. For you to go beyond skinchanging and learn what it means to be a greenseer."
  "The trees will teach him," said Leaf. She beckoned, and another of the singers padded forward, the white-haired one that Meera had named Snowylocks. She had a weirwood bowl in her hands, carved with a dozen faces, like the ones the heart trees wore. Inside was a white paste, thick and heavy, with dark red veins running through it. "You must eat of this," said Leaf. She handed Bran a wooden spoon.
  The boy looked at the bowl uncertainly. "What is it?"

I guess, for me, it depends on the situation and the "reasoning" behind it. Is it revenge for some? Absolutely. It is a way to ingest the powers of another in order to increase your own (in belief)? Most definitely. Is it a means for survival in desperate situations? Yes, yes it is.

I think Euron's Warlocks could be an attempt to distill power as well as break wills.

 

[Pain killer Jane]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

possibly this one as she is awake Arya???)

I tend to think Arya ate human flesh during her time in Flea Bottom with the Bowl O' Brown termed by Tyrion as Singer's Stew. 

 

5 hours ago, hiemal said:

he Frey pies were motivated by a hunger for a vengeance and mythically tied to the Rat Cook/Philomela. Side note on Philomela- I am convinced that this myth also ties into the tapestries that Littlefinger is having delivered from the Red Keep and possibly the secret of Valyrian Steel and to the ongoing nightingale theme in general.

While I am not discounting the influence of Philomela myth on the pregnant Woman praying for revenge in front of the heart tree, the cannibalism in association with the North is influenced by the myth of Lycaon. It unites wargs, cannibalism, breaking of guest rite, curse from the gods and as a bonus Lycaon's only daughter Callisto was transformed into a bear so that brings the Mormonts. It isn't a coincidence that Varamyr's bear is a she-bear. 

Honestly the cannibalism for me means the making of monsters. 

 

[Pain killer Jane]

5 hours ago, hiemal said:

The Maderlys are associated with appetite above all else. Lord Too-Fat-To-Sit-A-Horse travels with a moveable feast that puts even Ilyrio to shame and mentions of his two sons in the text are likewise always accompanied by mentions of food, eating, and the need to eat. Most disturbing of all, we have three incidents of cannibalism in our Song so far. Perhaps that should not be a surprise given their sigil, the Merling King- who dwells in the deep and feasts on all those who drift down to him and his children and on those who they lure to their deaths on shoals and reefs.

I think their physical appearance is indicative of their position as being the lords of merchants and the overindulgence is the manifestation of abuse and corruption of the economy. Rather than fat cat bankers, we have fat jolly mermen. Littlefinger's first job was managing the customs of Gulltown and while Petyr, physically does not reflect the abuse and corruption of the economy that we suspect, he did wield enough power to cause chaos where he himself has admitted that he thrives. And both Lord Manderly and Petyr are associated with lamprey. Petyr loves lamprey pie and Manderly is mocked as Lord Lamprey. 

[Lord Wraith]

8 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I think their physical appearance is indicative of their position as being the lords of merchants and the overindulgence is the manifestation of abuse and corruption of the economy. Rather than fat cat bankers, we have fat jolly mermen. Littlefinger's first job was managing the customs of Gulltown and while Petyr, physically does not reflect the abuse and corruption of the economy that we suspect, he did wield enough power to cause chaos where he himself has admitted that he thrives. And both Lord Manderly and Petyr are associated with lamprey. Petyr loves lamprey pie and Manderly is mocked as Lord Lamprey. 

I do remember a theory that Manderely and Baelish will team up at some point. Manderely needs a Stark and if Rickon's story does turn out to be a Shaggy Dog one... well its the next best alternative. Unless Robb will finally shows up and Jon takes his place.

[Pain killer Jane]

8 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I do remember a theory that Manderely and Baelish will team up at some point. Manderely needs a Stark and if Rickon's story does turn out to be a Shaggy Dog one... well its the next best alternative.

Not a ridiculous notion that Manderly and Baelish will team up. But I wonder how that would work? I feel like the team up would have to be extremely specific like Manderly being married to Sansa which I don't put past him since he asked to marry another mermaid/greenseer symbol person, Lady Donella Hornwood nee Manderly. But I don't see it ending in a very good way for either side like Joffrey's assassination ended with both parties satisfied. 

Honestly it seems like they are mirrors to each other. Manderly and Lady Dustin mirroring Baelish and Olenna/Sansa which also mirrors Varys and Illyrio. If you look they mirror quite well. Varys and his status as a eunuch corresponds to Olenna and Lady Dustin. Sansa has the Tully half fish thing going so that makes her a mermaid like the Manderly granddaughter and they both color their hair. Illyrio due to their physical appearance mirrors Manderly. Baelish and Manderly are associated with lamprey eels meaning that they are slippery characters. And Baelish, Manderly, and Illyrio can be counted having been masters of merchants.  

But poor Davos if this is the case with Rickon. A pointless journey for the onion knight. 

30 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Unless Robb will finally shows up and Jon takes his place.

????????

[Lord Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Not a ridiculous notion that Manderly and Baelish will team up. But I wonder how that would work? I feel like the team up would have to be extremely specific like Manderly being married to Sansa which I don't put past him since he asked to marry another mermaid/greenseer symbol person, Lady Donella Hornwood nee Manderly. But I don't see it ending in a very good way for either side like Joffrey's assassination ended with both parties satisfied. 

Honestly it seems like they are mirrors to each other. Manderly and Lady Dustin mirroring Baelish and Olenna/Sansa which also mirrors Varys and Illyrio. If you look they mirror quite well. Varys and his status as a eunuch corresponds to Olenna and Lady Dustin. Sansa has the Tully half fish thing going so that makes her a mermaid like the Manderly granddaughter and they both color their hair. Illyrio due to their physical appearance mirrors Manderly. Baelish and Manderly are associated with lamprey eels meaning that they are slippery characters. And Baelish, Manderly, and Illyrio can be counted having been masters of merchants.  

But poor Davos if this is the case with Rickon. A pointless journey for the onion knight. 

????????

Robb's Will that he made before he left for the Red Wedding. The will that most people think names Jon as Robb's heir.

[Pain killer Jane]

1 minute ago, Lord Wraith said:

Robb's Will that he made before he left for the Red Wedding. The will that most people think names Jon as Robb's heir.

ah ok I understand now. I was confused for a moment. 

Hmm....I can see Baelish and Manderly on opposing sides of that issue. The situation would be like the comment Tyrion made about how droll it would be to set Myrcella against Tommen. Some would side with Sansa and others with Jon and either Baelish or Manderly would prosper. 

[Lord Wraith]

Just now, Pain killer Jane said:

ah ok I understand now. I was confused for a moment. 

Hmm....I can see Baelish and Manderly on opposing sides of that issue. The situation would be like the comment Tyrion made about how droll it would be to set Myrcella against Tommen. Some would side with Sansa and others with Jon and either Baelish or Manderly would prosper. 

No worries I was unclear.

Its all a matter of timing and interests, those can change like the wind. I don't actually think they will, but then again I don't think Baelish has plans for going North. He is simply misdirecting Sansa and the readers again. I think he actually plans to head to the Riverlands but that is a discussion for another thread.

As far a Manderely goes he certainly does seem interested in amassing wealth and influence. He was aiming for for both Master of Coin and/or Ships in the new Stark kingship. Shame Robb didn't really have time to set up a government.  A little known youtuber has two interesting videos on Manderely if you have the time. Also its where the Manderely/Baelish plot could occur.

 

Also an interesting take on Northern economics and the politics of the North.

[Pain killer Jane]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

Good point. The Merman's Court seems out of place in Dunstonbury. Maybe a "hobbit's court".

Or Glastonbury Tor and all that goes with it...

Dunstonbury is a clever way of hiding a reference to House Dustin of Barrowtown where the first king is buried. 

[Pain killer Jane]

7 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

No worries I was unclear.

Its all a matter of timing and interests, those can change like the wind. I don't actually think they will, but then again I don't think Baelish has plans for going North. He is simply misdirecting Sansa and the readers again. I think he actually plans to head to the Riverlands but that is a discussion for another thread.

As far a Manderely goes he certainly does seem interested in amassing wealth and influence. He was aiming for for both Master of Coin and/or Ships in the new Stark kingship. Shame Robb didn't really have time to set up a government.  A little known youtuber has two interesting videos on Manderely if you have the time. Also its where the Manderely/Baelish plot could occur.

 

Also an interesting take on Northern economics and the politics of the North.

Now that is an interesting theory on Baelish. That seems like he would make a play for Riverrun. It is the site of the formation of his obsession but I don't put it past him to go North afterward as it would mean the greatest insult to Brandon Stark, his eternal enemy. 

Thanks for the vids. I will check them out tomorrow when I have time.

[Lord Wraith]

32 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Now that is an interesting theory on Baelish. That seems like he would make a play for Riverrun. It is the site of the formation of his obsession but I don't put it past him to go North afterward as it would mean the greatest insult to Brandon Stark, his eternal enemy. 

Thanks for the vids. I will check them out tomorrow when I have time.

Not Riverrun per say. Get Harrenhal and take his Lord Paramouncy. The Vale Lords will be itching to get revenge on House Frey for the Red Wedding and losing control of their numerous lordships. Riverrun, Twins, Darry will be very appealing for younger sons. Not to mention the likely Frey Civil War and whatever LSH and the BWB are planning.

[Prof. Cecily]

My, what an intriguing catch this thread is up til now.

8 hours ago, hiemal said:

...

Lady Donella Hornwood ate her own fingers in the extremity of her starvation, or at least is said to have done so. The unpleasant symbolism of that act speaks for itself, I think.

Why are they so hungry? Bring me your tinfoil and theories, insights and intuitions!

 

I read somewhere that the poor lady ate her fingers because Ramsey had flayed them. From Theon/Reek we know the pain of such a flaying is intolerable, driving the victim to beg to have the fingers removed. Trust Ramsey to invent a variant of this practise.

Quote

Reek had tried to bite his own ring finger off once, to stop it hurting after they had stripped the skin from it. Lord Ramsay would never simply cut off a man's finger. He preferred to flay it and let the exposed flesh dry and crack and fester. Reek had been whipped and racked and cut, but there was no pain half so excruciating as the pain that followed flaying. It was the sort of pain that drove men mad, and it could not be endured for long. Soon or late the victim would scream, "Please, no more, no more, stop it hurting, cut it off," and Lord Ramsay would oblige. It was a game they played. Reek had learned the rules, as his hands and feet could testify, but that one time he had forgotten and tried to end the pain himself, with his teeth. Ramsay had not been pleased, and the offense had cost Reek another toe.

A Dance with Dragons - Reek I

 

 

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

... And both Lord Manderly and Petyr are associated with lamprey. Petyr loves lamprey pie and Manderly is mocked as Lord Lamprey. 

Nice catch!

 

1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

..I don't think Baelish has plans for going North. He is simply misdirecting Sansa and the readers again. I think he actually plans to head to the Riverlands but that is a discussion for another thread.

As far a Manderely goes he certainly does seem interested in amassing wealth and influence. He was aiming for for both Master of Coin and/or Ships in the new Stark kingship. Shame Robb didn't really have time to set up a government.  A little known youtuber has two interesting videos on Manderely if you have the time. Also its where the Manderely/Baelish plot could occur.

 

Also an interesting take on Northern economics and the politics of the North.

Harrenhall.

We always come back to Harrenhall. Was Baelish at the tourney? 

Interesting videos, yes. I watch that youtuber's work regularly.Thanks for posting them!

 

35 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Not Riverrun per say. Get Harrenhal and take his Lord Paramouncy. The Vale Lords will be itching to get revenge on House Frey for the Red Wedding and losing control of their numerous lordships. Riverrun, Twins, Darry will be very appealing for younger sons. Not to mention the likely Frey Civil War and whatever LSH and the BWB are planning.

A complex situation, yes.

Plus WW and dragons.