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The Hungry Mouth of Rivers:Manderlys and Merlings


hiemal

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48 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

Your tinfoil is the best tinfoil.  Yeah, it's getting squamous out there.

(R'llhor of the peculiar punctuation reminded me very strongly of R'lyeh.  I'm betting on giant albino penguins someplace.)

They are carrying stone eggs on rugose toes in the Land of Always Winter. Teki-li! Teki-li!

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I feel like someone must have pointed this out before, but the Ironborn are almost whole cloth ripped off from the Fomorians. 

From wikipedia: 

"The Fomorians (Old IrishFomoire, Modern IrishFomhóraigh) are a supernatural race in Irish mythology. They are often portrayed as hostile and monstrous beings who come from the sea or underground. Later, they were portrayed as giants and sea raiders. They are enemies of Ireland's first settlers and opponents of the Tuatha Dé Danann,[1] the other supernatural race in Irish mythology."

So they don't come with the regular settlers. They war with them. They are from under the sea (Drowned God) or else underground (where you mine iron). They are sea raiders. They are chaotic and evil. They are on a god damn island off the west coast of Engl-, erm, Westeros. 

Oh yeah and they have a king named Balor. Remind you of anyone? 

So, take Fomorians, add Cthulu, shake (not stir), and you have the Iron Islands. Just sayin. 

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10 minutes ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

I feel like someone must have pointed this out before, but the Ironborn are almost whole cloth ripped off from the Fomorians. 

From wikipedia: 

"The Fomorians (Old IrishFomoire, Modern IrishFomhóraigh) are a supernatural race in Irish mythology. They are often portrayed as hostile and monstrous beings who come from the sea or underground. Later, they were portrayed as giants and sea raiders. They are enemies of Ireland's first settlers and opponents of the Tuatha Dé Danann,[1] the other supernatural race in Irish mythology."

So they don't come with the regular settlers. They war with them. They are from under the sea (Drowned God) or else underground (where you mine iron). They are sea raiders. They are chaotic and evil. They are on a god damn island off the west coast of Engl-, erm, Westeros. 

Oh yeah and they have a king named Balor. Remind you of anyone? 

So, take Fomorians, add Cthulu, shake (not stir), and you have the Iron Islands. Just sayin. 

Yep. Me, for one. I have Euron pegged as Balor (although:

Spoiler

TWoW The Forsaken reveals that Euron covers heterochromia with his patch rather than a missing eye)

and Jaime as Nuada. Battle of Kingslayers in the works: Victory Euron.

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3 minutes ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

LOL Euron

Also Balor's death explains the God's Eye. It's all right there. Head=moon meteor, and so on and so on. 

But back to merlings. I was looking for any cool deep ones references in mythology, and got sidetracked.

Yep, and I think Sarella or Sam will put an arrow through an eye.

Spoiler

The blue one is smiling, so the black could be frowning?

 

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8 hours ago, hiemal said:

I seem to have edited out my thoughts on the Driftwood Throne and the my musing on the Bastard of Driftmark. :(

Anyways- I'd love to hear more if you have any. It feels important- we have driftwood and sea dragons!

Sea Dragon Point exists in the North. Hence there must have been sea dragons at one point to name it after.

6 hours ago, hiemal said:

Yep, and I think Sarella or Sam will put an arrow through an eye.

  Reveal hidden contents

The blue one is smiling, so the black could be frowning?

 

Better be Sarella.

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9 hours ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

...But back to merlings. I was looking for any cool deep ones references in mythology, and got sidetracked.

No worries! There's plenty of time to discuss all the ramifications of the mythological sources GRRM used.

Do selkies fit in here?

Or is that another discussion?

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35 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

No worries! There's plenty of time to discuss all the ramifications of the mythological sources GRRM used.

Do selkies fit in here?

Or is that another discussion?

There's an island family that warg into seals, I think?  The Farwynds. They sound right out of the tradition. 

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7 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

No worries! There's plenty of time to discuss all the ramifications of the mythological sources GRRM used.

Do selkies fit in here?

 

Sure! My own tinfoil is that the merlings are the Children of the Drowned Forest, and underwater "branch" sprouting from those weirwoods that were drowned during the Children's offensive floods, primarily in Shipbreaker Bay and off of Sea Dragon Point. Selkies, Walrus-Men, and were-orca are their skinchangers. The Drowned God is a grove that has been drowned and corrupted by the Deep Ones using Oily Black Stone.

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29 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Sure! My own tinfoil is that the merlings are the Children of the Drowned Forest, and underwater "branch" sprouting from those weirwoods that were drowned during the Children's offensive floods, primarily in Shipbreaker Bay and off of Sea Dragon Point. Selkies, Walrus-Men, and were-orca are their skinchangers. The Drowned God is a grove that has been drowned and corrupted by the Deep Ones using Oily Black Stone.

I'm not sure of the mechanism involved, but I concur that 'the Drowned God' is none other than the 'weirnet, perhaps referring to whomever is trapped in there.'  Please reread my musings on your 'nennymoan' thread (:P) in which I argued that 'drowning is a metaphor for greenseeing.'  Drowning and being 'under the sea' can be understood figuratively; I leave the logistics of how it might apply more literally to the rest of you!

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[probably has a relationship with her brother and bore twins - one a sun god and the other a sea god(Gwidion and Dylan)I quite like the Iron Island as Fomorian idea BUT there are a lot of people with Balor in the name - Baelor, Baelish and Bael the Bard.  Definitely NOT accidental but I am not sure of the connection.

Bael was not so much a king as a terrible warrior with a medusa eye ie turn you to stone. Mind you there is an obvious connection with Beli the war god (and presumably even the Roman "bellus"  - war and of course the many words about anger and fighting that stem,

While Irish legend is important I believe it is WELSH legend that is more important, especially in the North and probably in Dorne. There is of course a lot of overlap between the two. We have for example clear Arthurian references in the Daynes but take a look at the two key mystical Starks - Barn and Arya. Ban is named after the mythical hero Bran who became a para/quadriplegic after some battle (to rescue his sister Bronwen - Jon ref too?)) and stayed on living and giving advice to warriors for many years. He is associated with ravens and indeed the name means raven (Irish too).

The second reference is Aria and she shares quite a lot of similarity with Arianrhod the goddess who gives birth to twins - a sea god and a sun god (Dylan and Lleu). There is a clear suggestion this was based on an affair with her brother Gwydion. She seems to be associated with death and reincarnation which is very Aria like. Her name means Silver wheel which may be a moon reference and according to one (very unreliable) source she is a moon goddess.

To the extent that we associate characters with ancient deities I also feel that if the lords of the houses in the south are associated with various Germanic gods (Anglosaxon and Viking) three other Starks Ned, Robb and Sansa seem to represent the three hostage Vanir gods -Nudd, Fryr (lord) and Freya (lady). These three went south and only Freya survived. Catelyn has parallels with Skadi who marries Nudd almost by mistake thinking it was Baldur the beautiful (bit like the Brandon and Ned story).

 

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5 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

[probably has a relationship with her brother and bore twins - one a sun god and the other a sea god(Gwidion and Dylan)I quite like the Iron Island as Fomorian idea BUT there are a lot of people with Balor in the name - Baelor, Baelish and Bael the Bard.  Definitely NOT accidental but I am not sure of the connection.

Bael was not so much a king as a terrible warrior with a medusa eye ie turn you to stone. Mind you there is an obvious connection with Beli the war god (and presumably even the Roman "bellus"  - war and of course the many words about anger and fighting that stem,

While Irish legend is important I believe it is WELSH legend that is more important, especially in the North and probably in Dorne. There is of course a lot of overlap between the two. We have for example clear Arthurian references in the Daynes but take a look at the two key mystical Starks - Barn and Arya. Ban is named after the mythical hero Bran who became a para/quadriplegic after some battle (to rescue his sister Bronwen - Jon ref too?)) and stayed on living and giving advice to warriors for many years. He is associated with ravens and indeed the name means raven (Irish too).

The second reference is Aria and she shares quite a lot of similarity with Arianrhod the goddess who gives birth to twins - a sea god and a sun god (Dylan and Lleu). There is a clear suggestion this was based on an affair with her brother Gwydion. She seems to be associated with death and reincarnation which is very Aria like. Her name means Silver wheel which may be a moon reference and according to one (very unreliable) source she is a moon goddess.

To the extent that we associate characters with ancient deities I also feel that if the lords of the houses in the south are associated with various Germanic gods (Anglosaxon and Viking) three other Starks Ned, Robb and Sansa seem to represent the three hostage Vanir gods -Nudd, Fryr (lord) and Freya (lady). These three went south and only Freya survived. Catelyn has parallels with Skadi who marries Nudd almost by mistake thinking it was Baldur the beautiful (bit like the Brandon and Ned story).

 

As for the Bael names.... It is a call out to Ba'al, Balor and the Arthurian Sir Balin and his brother Sir Balan.

 

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Crowfood daughter

Yes all those Bael names relate to Beli etc - but of course so do the twin gods/heroes Balin and Balon who are middle ages personification of ancient deities ie the twin gods Beli and Bali (not sure of the second namel) but Beli was the father of Danu  and also I think Arianhod.  There is obviously a resemblance to the Latin word for war and also the concept of the twin gods found throughout Europe - Castor and Pollux.

GRRM being GRRM I feel sure that these references are not accidental. From what I have read there is a sun god/sea god sort of association and also that threesome - sky, sea underworld - Zeus, Poseidon, Hades or in Celtic mythology.

Gwyn ap Nudd is the son of Nudd (Llud) and is the ruler of the faery folk/underworld - also the white god. Both Jon and Bran seem to fit this character although the white connection points at Jon. He is the ruler of the "other world."  He also loved his sister. He is the leader of the wild hunt with a pack of dogs. It is NOT the same to equate this character with Hades, but there is still an element of it - caves/weirwoods, Odin etc

There are several sea gods in Welsh legend - Manawaden who is linked by name and family to the sea god Lir and is similar in parts to his Irish counterpart Manannán, although they are also different. Based on the name alone I see Mance in this role and I see him as probably a Stark (son of Rodrick the wandering wolf ??????). Manawaden marries Rhiannon the horse goddess who loses or has a son stolen - (Mance could perhaps be the stolen son??????) or conceivably this is Jon with Lyanna as parents as mother. Lyanna is very definitely a Rhiannon type figure. Brandon has the personality of the missing son Pryderi - perhaps GRRMis giving a wave to FAegon too - who is very, very Pryderi like in his tale.

Lyr is another Sea god but not much is known of him. The word means sea. He is the father of Bran the Blessed, Manawadyn and Branwen and possibly Rhiannon

Dylan the son of Arianh=rhod is a sea "god" and his brother Lleu a classic sun god. Again I see the two babies - Mances and Gillie's in these roles.

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11 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

Crowfood daughter

Yes all those Bael names relate to Beli etc - but of course so do the twin gods/heroes Balin and Balon who are middle ages personification of ancient deities ie the twin gods Beli and Bali (not sure of the second namel) but Beli was the father of Danu  and also I think Arianhod.  There is obviously a resemblance to the Latin word for war and also the concept of the twin gods found throughout Europe - Castor and Pollux.

GRRM being GRRM I feel sure that these references are not accidental. From what I have read there is a sun god/sea god sort of association and also that threesome - sky, sea underworld - Zeus, Poseidon, Hades or in Celtic mythology.

Gwyn ap Nudd is the son of Nudd (Llud) and is the ruler of the faery folk/underworld - also the white god. Both Jon and Bran seem to fit this character although the white connection points at Jon. He is the ruler of the "other world."  He also loved his sister. He is the leader of the wild hunt with a pack of dogs. It is NOT the same to equate this character with Hades, but there is still an element of it - caves/weirwoods, Odin etc

There are several sea gods in Welsh legend - Manawaden who is linked by name and family to the sea god Lir and is similar in parts to his Irish counterpart Manannán, although they are also different. Based on the name alone I see Mance in this role and I see him as probably a Stark (son of Rodrick the wandering wolf ??????). Manawaden marries Rhiannon the horse goddess who loses or has a son stolen - (Mance could perhaps be the stolen son??????) or conceivably this is Jon with Lyanna as parents as mother. Lyanna is very definitely a Rhiannon type figure. Brandon has the personality of the missing son Pryderi - perhaps GRRMis giving a wave to FAegon too - who is very, very Pryderi like in his tale.

Lyr is another Sea god but not much is known of him. The word means sea. He is the father of Bran the Blessed, Manawadyn and Branwen and possibly Rhiannon

Dylan the son of Arianh=rhod is a sea "god" and his brother Lleu a classic sun god. Again I see the two babies - Mances and Gillie's in these roles.

My welsh kung-fu is relatively weak being mostly mabinogion stuff (and its past time I did a reread) so thanks for the insight!

A musical interlude- the lead singer personally recommended the Mabinogion to me before the release of this album! Not strictly relevant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkNf0k3Gas4

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11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Yes all those Bael names relate to Beli etc - but of course so do the twin gods/heroes Balin and Balon who are middle ages personification of ancient deities ie the twin gods Beli and Bali

Thank you for the heads up. You seem to have a pretty in depth knowledge of the subject.  I was wondering if could you please recommend a website or link for research into this topic.  I have done a couple quick web searches and haven't found anything so far on Beli's twin brother.  The "brothers theme" is something that interests me greatly, so I am in a state of disappointment not being able to find what you are referring to with Beli and his brother.

You know it is funny that you mention these because Garth and the Grey King may well be twins, it was something we toyed with a bit a bit in our discussion.  When you look at the sigil for the extinct House GreyIron, who were the first driftwood kings after the Grey King, you see their sigil is a picture of "the Sea King" crowned with green hair and a green beard.  It is most likely a mugshot of the pre-grey transformation of the Grey King as their Drowned God is already depicted in the sigil of House Sunderly and this description of the Drowned God is, of course:

Spoiler

 confirmed in the Forsaken chapter. 

“All gods are lies, but yours is laughable. A pale white thing in the likeness of a man, his limbs broken and swollen and his hair flipping in the water while fish nibble at his face. What fool would worship that?”

 

To tie this back to the original post, I have seen some assume the GreyIron sigil is the head of the Merling King as semi-cannon  mentions the sigil as the head of the "Sea King". This is also somewhat backed by the eerily similar sigil of House Manderly that depicts a merling with green hair and a green beard.  But, if we start piecing the myth together once it is realized that the Grey King and Garth were brothers, you will see that the "Sea King" and the Grey King are once in the same.  The assumptions people make of the sigil of house Greyiron being the Merling King now make sense (at least in my mind) when you see that the "Merling King" gave the ancestors of what is now House Velaryon a Driftwood throne to conclude a pact.  As we also know legendary throne which is now lost to history was not in fact Nagga's bones, but driftwood...the washed up remains of a weirwood boat.  Just as some say the Grey King's crown was made of Nagga's teeth while other accounts say the Grey King had a driftwood crown.

An allusion to the Grey king is coyly mentioned in a Davos chapter when he is taken to Mermen's Court

                The knight wore silver armor, his greaves and gauntlet inlaid with niello to suggest        

                 flowing fronds of seaweed. The helm beneath his arm was the head of the merling

                king, with a crown of mother-of-pearl and a jutting beard of jet and jade. His own

                beard was as grey as the winter sea. Davos rose. “May I know your name, ser?” “Ser

                Marlon Manderly.” He was a head taller than Davos and three stones heavier, with

                slate-grey eyes and a haughty way of speaking. “I have the honor to be Lord   

                Wyman’s cousin and commander of his garrison. Follow me.”

 As Marlon is wearing his merling king costume, we see that underneath his armor his description and the Grey King’s are almost duplicated     

            The Grey King ruled the sea itself and took a mermaid to wife […] His hair and beard   

             and eyes were as grey as a winter sea, and from these he took his name.

As I mentioned earlier, I think some ideas of merpeople in the ASOIAF legends are just allusions to raiders from the sea and others are about the squisher folk, but the two legendary folk have been melted down into history and given similar labels further confusing legend. 

I look forward to any reference or website you could steer me in the right direction when it comes to the twins Beli and Bali.  Thanks!

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  • 9 months later...

"Ser Wendel Manderly rose ponderously to his feet, holding his leg of lamb. A quarrel went in his open mouth and came out the back of his neck."...  ASoS

A lot of interesting stuff going on here for only two sentences. Wendel rises to defend himself like a true Manderly, with food. It is absurd but it fits the profile. Was this leg served by the Freys or did he bring his own snacks like his father bringing wagons of food wherever he travels? Earlier in the chapter Cat was listing the poor fare they were being served so Wendel suddenly having his own joint of meat could be more than just the comic imagery. Lambs are better symbolic substitutes for children than kids, after all, and Wyman does sup on roast goat soon.

The manner of his death is even more striking, however- he unsuccessfully tries to "eat" the Frey's bolt. I think it pairs nicely with Biter's attempted second taste of Brienne:

"Biter threw back his head and opened his mouth again, howling, and stuck his tongue out at her. It was sharply pointed, dripping blood, longer than any tongue should be. Sliding from his mouth, out and out and out, red and wet and glistening, it made a hideous sight, obscene. His tongue is a foot long, Brienne thought, just before the darkness took her. Why, it looks almost like a sword."... AFfC

That's the closest link between Wendel and cannibalism that I can find, but the image of him choking on his last meal (and Biter straining for one last taste) tickles me. Is Biter a secret or bastard Manderly?

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