The Hungry Mouth of Rivers:Manderlys and Merlings

[Lord Wraith]

9 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Harrenhall.

We always come back to Harrenhall. Was Baelish at the tourney? 

Interesting videos, yes. I watch that youtuber's work regularly.Thanks for posting them!

 

A complex situation, yes.

Plus WW and dragons.

I do think that Harrenhal is be important to the end game of the series. After all if its walls could repel a million men then why not a million wights? Also I always figured it make a excellent capitol after someone burns KL to the ground. Also I think a great council will be held there.

I hope he posts more soon its usually good stuff.

WW and dragons are for the finale aka Spring. Baelish is trying to survive Winter.

[SeaWitch]

Harrenhal, and the Isle of Faces in God's Eye.  

A huge weirwood, with all the associated proto-Celtic batshittery.  Everything kicked off from there, it has to play a part in the ending.

(Yes, Petyr was at the tourney.  Things hadn't gone sideways, he was still a Tully Ward.)

[Lord Wraith]

1 hour ago, SeaWitch said:

Harrenhal, and the Isle of Faces in God's Eye.  

A huge weirwood, with all the associated proto-Celtic batshittery.  Everything kicked off from there, it has to play a part in the ending.

(Yes, Petyr was at the tourney.  Things hadn't gone sideways, he was still a Tully Ward.)

Funny thing we never hear of the Tully's doing anything at the Tournament or if they were even there. I mean they live next door and tis the social event of like the decade but nothing conclusive.

[Luddagain]

I think you MUST understand the Mandelys and Gardiners (and the Storm god and drowned god) in the context of the first men and the pact. and GRRMs familiarity with the ancient religions of the British Isles.

The old gods are ancient animistic gods ie the trees and the animals, life and death, rivers and hills. These are the god/spirits of the first inhabitants of Britain (and Europe). The Green man is a very real ancient spirit often carved rather inappropriately in old churches in Britain. He was a benevolent sort of god and much loved.

The Merling King is another rather more recent British spirit and obviously has a name to reflect the wizardry of King Arthur's court ie Merlin.  The ancient sea god of the Celts was MANawading and clearly there is a sea association with the Manderlys. Note their symbol is the trident which of course is also Poseidon and Neptune. Fighting with the Peaks is a good catch as is the excellent comment re "Dustinbury" . Throw in the Storm God and the drowned god and you sort of have Zeus, Poisidon, Hades and Demeter or Gaia (a man in this case). The Celtic Equivalents are Danu (mother), Ludd/Nudd and Manawading. are the later more sophisticated versions of these nature spirits (Dany, Ned and Mance???????).

[LordImp]

Why the Manderlys still care about " the order of the green hand " is indeed a interesting question . 

Maybe they will revive the entire order and be important during the Long night ? 

[chrisdaw]

I think the meaning behind most these things won't be for the Manderlys in their own right but that they will relate to Davos.

HH will be a simple metaphor for the stone beast.

[Pain killer Jane]

10 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Nice catch!

That was @ravenous reader who caught that. 

[Prof. Cecily]

14 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

Harrenhal, and the Isle of Faces in God's Eye.  

A huge weirwood, with all the associated proto-Celtic batshittery.  Everything kicked off from there, it has to play a part in the ending.

(Yes, Petyr was at the tourney.  Things hadn't gone sideways, he was still a Tully Ward.)

Indeed. I seemed to remember him saying so in the HBO production, but wasn't certain the books included this information.

Quote

...the associated proto-Celtic batshittery

Well played! When will someone think to trace ley lines in the Westeros landscape?

16 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I do think that Harrenhal is be important to the end game of the series. After all if its walls could repel a million men then why not a million wights? Also I always figured it make a excellent capitol after someone burns KL to the ground. Also I think a great council will be held there.

I hope he posts more soon its usually good stuff.

WW and dragons are for the finale aka Spring. Baelish is trying to survive Winter.

Well, yes, on paper Harrenhall looks ideal for a capital, except for that curse.

6 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

That was @ravenous reader who caught that. 

Oh, well spotted.

Pies seem associated with death and deception, other than Hotpie's of course.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

you may want to add Biter to your list of people eaters, dude was chewing down on Brienne AND swallowing.  I think the similarities between Biter and the description of Squishers are creepily similar IMO.

[hiemal]

So a little more tinfoil in the Stormlands origin theory:

Hypothesizing that the story of Storm's End's founding is based on real history, either gauded up by Golden Age syndrome or reported faithfully to give the lie all of those maesters (theories 1 and 2) I think that the Merling King would fit well right symbolically on Shipbreaker Bay but I'm not convinced it is where the current keep is. The Queen of the Wind could possibly be a Griffin flown down from the Vale. The connection to the sea and the mer-lifestyle continue well past Crackclaw Point and clear to the Sisters and the Borrels. The Merling kingdom would have been quite large indeed. Durran shows up and steals himself a wife (on some level) and a kingdom and seven failed sieges later the erstwhile king seeks sanctuary from the Greenhand who asks in return that they swear to protect the Reach as knights of the Order of the Green Hand from that day forward.

[hiemal]

Random left-field tinfoil:

"Old Fishfoot" sets my mythic sense tingling but my intuitions are vague and weird. Fishfoot conjures up snakefoot which reminds me the snake-footed figure on some Abrasaxes (Zeus tzabaous or something like that?) but I'm a sucker for gnosticism and probably reaching way too far.

But...

Looking at the night sky, Jon recalls that he has been taught the twelve Houses of Heaven and their rulers. I'm calling the Merling King as one of those Archons or Deacons or whatever terminology they use. Just a hunch.

 

[hiemal]

14 hours ago, Luddagain said:

 The Celtic Equivalents are Danu (mother), Ludd/Nudd and Manawading. are the later more sophisticated versions of these nature spirits (Dany, Ned and Mance???????).

Don't get me started on Lebor Gaballa Erenn. That's at least three or four threads in and of itself.

Briefly, though, my take:

The Great Empire of the Dawn and the Valyrians are the Tuatha de Dannan. The Deep Ones are the Fomar. CotF are Fir Bolgs. Essentially, though, I think the Merling King is not Mannanan Mac Lir or any kind of Tuatha analog, but representative of a competing, alien order- in Celtic terms more Fomorian than Tuatha.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

13 minutes ago, hiemal said:

So a little more tinfoil in the Stormlands origin theory:

Hypothesizing that the story of Storm's End's founding is based on real history, either gauded up by Golden Age syndrome or reported faithfully to give the lie all of those maesters (theories 1 and 2) I think that the Merling King would fit well right symbolically on Shipbreaker Bay but I'm not convinced it is where the current keep is. The Queen of the Wind could possibly be a Griffin flown down from the Vale. The connection to the sea and the mer-lifestyle continue well past Crackclaw Point and clear to the Sisters and the Borrels. The Merling kingdom would have been quite large indeed. Durran shows up and steals himself a wife (on some level) and a kingdom and seven failed sieges later the erstwhile king seeks sanctuary from the Greenhand who asks in return that they swear to protect the Reach as knights of the Order of the Green Hand from that day forward.

The Garth connections are pretty well lined out with the Storm Kings, so on Order of the Green Hand membership is probably a pretty decent bet for the Storm Kings of Old.  I am almost sure the Merling King is all allusion to the Ironborn.  This concept I have is mostly supported by the idea of the "Driftwood Throne" given to House Velaryon to conclude a pact.  As we know, the driftwood throne made by "Nagga's Bones" is a storied throne that is lost to history.  Have this hunch the two thrones are one in the same.  I think some ideas of merpeople in the ASOIAF legends are just allusions to raiders from the sea and others are about the squisher folk, but the two legendary folk have been melted down into history and given similar labels further confusing legend.  If you notice in TWOIAF, it mentions there is a more malign type of merling, I think these are the squishers.   

[Luddagain]

I think we will find that Garth Greenhand has a direct descendent who will be very important to the final story. Like the Manaderlys this Garth descendent is overweight called the whale but is also smart, brave in an unconventional way and very, very loyal.

That is what characterises the order of the green hand. Ser Samwell Tarly will become a member of this order. He is after all probab;ly the rightful heir (after his Mum and one cousin to the Reach.

[Luddagain]

Crowfoot

I am not so sure that the Merlin King and the Drowned god are one and the same - hence the connection with the iron born is not so clear.

I am on record many times as saying that I think that each of the houses/people are associated with ancient BRITISH deities and that at least when he started GRRM as telling the tale of Rajnarok. 

The Southern Kingdoms (or their chief houses) represent the gods of the Romanised Anglosaxons/Vikings who settled the British isles with the seven houses associated with the seven gods associated with the seven planetary bodies,

Thus:

Stormlands = Thor with his hammer and Robert is a decidedly Thor like personality (Jupiter the father and thunder god). Before the Andals the first man god would have been the STORM god

Westerlands= Tyw god of justice and war. Like Tyr Jaime had his hand bitten off.  Mars god of war). but there is also a Nuada overlap) so some sort of warrior god - Nuada silver hand I assume, given Jaime's story

The Vale = Mani the mood GOD.  They were the first to join the Targs and also the first day of the week.

Dorne = Sol the sun. They were the last to join the Targs and are the last day of the week

The reach and the Riverlands BOTH seem associates with fertility and plenty and therefore with the GODDESS Freya (Venus as the planet). However the more ancient Garth Greenhands is very strong here too. the connection with Freyr and Freya (vanir gods held captive by Asgard) is strong

This leaves two planets or Romanised gods Wodin and he who is not named (Saturn) and two Kingdoms as part of the IT. 

 

The drowned god seems a pretty good fit with the dark and nasty god of Saturday which in some part is not named. The Germanic god associated with Saturday and the roman Saturn and the planet is probably Loki.

The Odin/woden similarities with Blood raven are so obvious that it barely needs repeating. However it is not quite clear if they are Andal ie Riverland gods or something older ie from the North. Once again since we can safely assume GRRM knows more about Nordic (and probably celtic) mythology that any of the rest of us mere mortals - he studied it an Uni- we can also not the similarities between the character of Odin/Woden and also the Celtic (ie first man) stories of Merlin or indeed other modern "wizards" Gandalf and Dumbledore who like Odin and Merlin combine warrior skills, great wisdom and extremely strong magic. Initially this was confusing because BR was of the Riverlands, but the WOIF book has made it clear that the Backwoods and hence BR is originally Northern, or perhaps is an amalgam of all - the Old gods of the North and CoF (weirwoods), the Celtic god of the Fist men eg Merlin and the Odin god of the underworld and also magic and wisdom of the Andals. This Odin/Wodin is the North which is entirely consistent with the good/bad living/dead/ underworld and normal world, Summer/winter that seems to hang about the Starks.

 

 

[hiemal]

16 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

The Garth connections are pretty well lined out with the Storm Kings, so on Order of the Green Hand membership is probably a pretty decent bet for the Storm Kings of Old.  I am almost sure the Merling King is all allusion to the Ironborn.  This concept I have is mostly supported by the idea of the "Driftwood Throne" given to House Velaryon to conclude a pact.  As we know, the driftwood throne made by "Nagga's Bones" is a storied throne that is lost to history.  Have this hunch the two thrones are one in the same.  I think some ideas of merpeople in the ASOIAF legends are just allusions to raiders from the sea and others are about the squisher folk, but the two legendary folk have been melted down into history and given similar labels further confusing legend.  If you notice in TWOIAF, it mentions there is a more malign type of merling, I think these are the squishers.   

I've considered the Iron Islands as the ancestral home of the Manderly's (how not when the Gray King took a wermaid to wife and the dead in the faith are said to be rewarded with mermaids of their own to wait on their every whim) but ultimately I went with the Stormlands for the reasons above and one about the squishers.

I believe the Squishers are either the Deep Ones themselves or human/Deep One hybrids straight out of The Shadow Over Innsmouth, possibly up to the point of the promised afterlife in the Drowned God's deep sea paradise being analogous to Lovecraft's "mature" stage when the townsfolk leave the surface forever. Yep- I'm tinfoiling that Balon is literally feasting under the sea and the merfolk are the original "salt wives".

 

[Crowfood's Daughter]

2 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I've considered the Iron Islands as the ancestral home of the Manderly's (how not when the Gray King took a wermaid to wife and the dead in the faith are said to be rewarded with mermaids of their own to wait on their every whim) but ultimately I went with the Stormlands for the reasons above and one about the squishers.

I believe the Squishers are either the Deep Ones themselves or human/Deep One hybrids straight out of The Shadow Over Innsmouth, possibly up to the point of the promised afterlife in the Drowned God's deep sea paradise being analogous to Lovecraft's "mature" stage when the townsfolk leave the surface forever. Yep- I'm tinfoiling that Balon is literally feasting under the sea and the merfolk are the original "salt wives".

That is certainly something to gnaw on while we wait for WOW to come!  Love me some Ironborn mythos. 

[hiemal]

5 minutes ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

That is certainly something to gnaw on while we wait for WOW to come!  Love me some Ironborn mythos. 

I seem to have edited out my thoughts on the Driftwood Throne and the my musing on the Bastard of Driftmark.

Anyways- I'd love to hear more if you have any. It feels important- we have driftwood and sea dragons!

[Crowfood's Daughter]

16 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I seem to have edited out my thoughts on the Driftwood Throne and the my musing on the Bastard of Driftmark.

Anyways- I'd love to hear more if you have any. It feels important- we have driftwood and sea dragons!

I have some stuff I am still sorting through.  I am hoping to post something some time next month.

[SeaWitch]

54 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I've considered the Iron Islands as the ancestral home of the Manderly's (how not when the Gray King took a wermaid to wife and the dead in the faith are said to be rewarded with mermaids of their own to wait on their every whim) but ultimately I went with the Stormlands for the reasons above and one about the squishers.

I believe the Squishers are either the Deep Ones themselves or human/Deep One hybrids straight out of The Shadow Over Innsmouth, possibly up to the point of the promised afterlife in the Drowned God's deep sea paradise being analogous to Lovecraft's "mature" stage when the townsfolk leave the surface forever. Yep- I'm tinfoiling that Balon is literally feasting under the sea and the merfolk are the original "salt wives".

 

Your tinfoil is the best tinfoil.  Yeah, it's getting squamous out there.

(R'llhor of the peculiar punctuation reminded me very strongly of R'lyeh.  I'm betting on giant albino penguins someplace.)