Mance Rayder and Petyr Baelish are allies

[300 H&H Magnum]

Preston's latest show open's a new theory in who might have wanted Bran killed.  In this case, Mance Rayder.  The objective was to cause the Starks to fight the Lannisters.  I finished the show and a thought came to me.  What if Mance and Petyr are working together?  They made an agreement before the start of the story to work together to collapse the government in Westeros.  Mance and his freefolk gets the North and Littlefinger gets everything below the Neck. 

[Good Guy Garlan]

So Mance would've still tried to kill Bran (or another one of the Stark kids) even if Jaime hadn't pushed him out the window? 

[Makk]

So where did these two meet for each of their Machiavellian moments (including the first time)?

[Lord Wraith]

5 minutes ago, Makk said:

So where did these two meet for each of their Machiavellian moments (including the first time)?

This really.

Granted I like the evidence that Mance was behind it all. Bag of silver and a vested interest in causing chaos in the seven kingdoms. Makes a lot of sense. Ned even mentions early in GOT that he might have to march North to deal with Mance Rayder.

[Prof. Cecily]

In the books, Mance is still alive (that is to say, not confirmed 100% dead) and with a son in the Citadel.

That could provide some action, yes.

 

Where did Mance and Baelish meet?

In Braavos.

[Lord Wraith]

12 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

In the books, Mance is still alive (that is to say, not confirmed 100% dead) and with a son in the Citadel.

That could provide some action, yes.

 

Where did Mance and Baelish meet?

In Braavos.

Explain this please you have my attention.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/9f/4f/bc/9f4fbca6639e18e7badf416fe36fe64b.jpg

[Prof. Cecily]

Yerba mate! So decadent, so satisfying.

Well, the idea came to me because in Westeros, Lord Varys' little birds are everywhere. Everywhere.

So as I pondered the question, it seemed to me that foggy and accessible Braavos would be the ideal place to set up such a meeting.

Accessible to one such as Mance, as well as to one such as Lord Baelish.

 

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

PJ obviously didn't read my spectacular theory. He missed the biggest clue: the dagger only matters if the assassination fails, and the only one who could have planned for that was basically Bloodraven via warging Summer to kill the would-be assassin.

Mance and/or LF may have been involved, especially considering the bag of silver. I personally think they are both working for BR. We know that people who have had near-death experiences or been crippled in some fashion can be sent powerful visions, like Bran, Jojen, Lancel, Varys, BR himself, and many others. Well it just so happens that Mance was mauled by an animal, and LF was seriously wounded in a duel. I think they are both BR's pawns.

[Lord Wraith]

18 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

PJ obviously didn't read my spectacular theory. He missed the biggest clue: the dagger only matters if the assassination fails, and the only one who could have planned for that was basically Bloodraven via warging Summer to kill the would-be assassin.

Mance and/or LF may have been involved, especially considering the bag of silver. I personally think they are both working for BR. We know that people who have had near-death experiences or been crippled in some fashion can be sent powerful visions, like Bran, Jojen, Lancel, Varys, BR himself, and many others. Well it just so happens that Mance was mauled by an animal, and LF was seriously wounded in a duel. I think they are both BR's pawns.

To be fair everyone could be BR's pawn in one form or the other. I certainly think BR is response for a great deal of the tragedy that has befallen Brandon Stark. After all if he is a happy and healthy Prince of Winterfell he wouldn't come North to the COTF cave.

Now its a matter of what BR and the COTF motives actually are. Going read the theory now.

[ravenous reader]

Forget it guys --

Joffrey did it.

The incriminating (un)familiarity with Valyrian steel  and that quintessential GRRM ellipsis...

DOT DOT DOT

And the rest is history...

[Luddagain]

Jeepers

Write your own books and stop twisting GRRM.   Mance is scared of the OTHERS and seeks support. LF has not got a clue about them or is one of them.

Stabbing Bran was cooked up by LF along with Joffrey. The issue is why and how?

The why I think is because of his hatred of Ned and Catelyn. His spies would have told him that Catelyn loved Bran above all others, so killing him was pay back.  He also wanted to pry Catelyn out of Winterfell and Bran would be key to that.

The how - well he would have had time for a raven or two and he would certainly have had two-five spies marching with Robert and some at Winterfell itself. He need only have put the thought into Joffrey's head - better off dead etc. Show strength - Ned and daddy are weak etc .

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, Luddagain said:

Jeepers

Write your own books and stop twisting GRRM.   Mance is scared of the OTHERS and seeks support. LF has not got a clue about them or is one of them.

Stabbing Bran was cooked up by LF along with Joffrey. The issue is why and how?

The why I think is because of his hatred of Ned and Catelyn. His spies would have told him that Catelyn loved Bran above all others, so killing him was pay back.  He also wanted to pry Catelyn out of Winterfell and Bran would be key to that.

The how - well he would have had time for a raven or two and he would certainly have had two-five spies marching with Robert and some at Winterfell itself. He need only have put the thought into Joffrey's head - better off dead etc. Show strength - Ned and daddy are weak etc .

What drivel are you speaking here?

It's very simple --

Cersei had the most motive to wish Bran dead.

So, in order to subvert our expectations -- since he's the 'master of subverting those tropes' -- it had to be someone else.

Why not Joffrey?

(Un)familiarity with that Valyrian steel and those ellipses...

Does the trick, I'm telling you.

Cease this pointless enquiry and submit to the superior wisdom of the master.

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

44 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Forget it guys --

Joffrey did it.

The incriminating (un)familiarity with Valyrian steel  and that quintessential GRRM ellipsis...

DOT DOT DOT

And the rest is history...

Powerful argument  

[ravenous reader]

Just now, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Powerful argument  

Thought you might like it.

[Lord Wraith]

1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

Jeepers

Write your own books and stop twisting GRRM.   Mance is scared of the OTHERS and seeks support. LF has not got a clue about them or is one of them.

Stabbing Bran was cooked up by LF along with Joffrey. The issue is why and how?

The why I think is because of his hatred of Ned and Catelyn. His spies would have told him that Catelyn loved Bran above all others, so killing him was pay back.  He also wanted to pry Catelyn out of Winterfell and Bran would be key to that.

The how - well he would have had time for a raven or two and he would certainly have had two-five spies marching with Robert and some at Winterfell itself. He need only have put the thought into Joffrey's head - better off dead etc. Show strength - Ned and daddy are weak etc .

Blaming Baelish is twisting the writing as much as the next person. 

[ravenous reader]

5 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Blaming Baelish is twisting the writing as much as the next person. 

Please stop Wraith. We all know you aren't a psychopath!

[Luddagain]

Of course it could have been Cersai but why kill Bran!!!!!!  He was not a threat to her or her children. She is stupid and vengeful but she had not reason to particularly dislike Catelyn. Possibly Ned but why pick on Bran?  Also she would have used poison or some other less clear cut means of killing him.

No the stabbing was stupid, amateurish and poorly managed. This is much more like a child eg Joffrey that Cersai or LF.  

LF was manoeuvring to get Ned and Cat to KL. This we KNOW since he killed Jon Arryn. He must have had some half formed plan to injure Ned - perhaps he STILL thought of marrying Cat. To do this the girls are no problem nor is Robb since he is heir to Winterfell and would stay in the North. Cat's attachment to Bran could have prevented a remarriage. That is motive enough.

Recall that LFis by his own words an opportunist he has vague plans but always seizes an opportunity when it presents itself.  His only weakness seems to be Catelyn and then Sansa.

He NEVER marries - why not - he has become rich and their would be girls of reasonable birth and good looking a plenty for him now. However he does not marry until AFTER Catelyn is dead.  Then at the first chance he shoves his wife out the moon door and starts chasing Sansa.

[SeaWitch]

7 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

Of course it could have been Cersai but why kill Bran!!!!!!  He was not a threat to her or her children. She is stupid and vengeful but she had not reason to particularly dislike Catelyn. Possibly Ned but why pick on Bran?  Also she would have used poison or some other less clear cut means of killing him.

No the stabbing was stupid, amateurish and poorly managed. This is much more like a child eg Joffrey that Cersai or LF.  

LF was manoeuvring to get Ned and Cat to KL. This we KNOW since he killed Jon Arryn. He must have had some half formed plan to injure Ned - perhaps he STILL thought of marrying Cat. To do this the girls are no problem nor is Robb since he is heir to Winterfell and would stay in the North. Cat's attachment to Bran could have prevented a remarriage. That is motive enough.

Recall that LFis by his own words an opportunist he has vague plans but always seizes an opportunity when it presents itself.  His only weakness seems to be Catelyn and then Sansa.

He NEVER marries - why not - he has become rich and their would be girls of reasonable birth and good looking a plenty for him now. However he does not marry until AFTER Catelyn is dead.  Then at the first chance he shoves his wife out the moon door and starts chasing Sansa.

Cersei had motive, because Bran could wake up and confirm what he saw.  In fact, has anyone suggested that *Cersei* might have wondered aloud in Joffrey's hearing about what a good thing it would be if...  But the botched plot was all Joff.

i don't think Petyr wanted the Starks in KL, Ned blundered through too many ongoing plots by various people, a sword through the spider-web.

He can't marry whilst he wants to keep Lysa's favour. If he did, I expect his wife would have an Amy Robsart style accident fairly swiftly.  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

19 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

Of course it could have been Cersai but why kill Bran!!!!!!  He was not a threat to her or her children. She is stupid and vengeful but she had not reason to particularly dislike Catelyn. Possibly Ned but why pick on Bran?  Also she would have used poison or some other less clear cut means of killing him.

No the stabbing was stupid, amateurish and poorly managed. This is much more like a child eg Joffrey that Cersai or LF.  

LF was manoeuvring to get Ned and Cat to KL. This we KNOW since he killed Jon Arryn. He must have had some half formed plan to injure Ned - perhaps he STILL thought of marrying Cat. To do this the girls are no problem nor is Robb since he is heir to Winterfell and would stay in the North. Cat's attachment to Bran could have prevented a remarriage. That is motive enough.

Recall that LFis by his own words an opportunist he has vague plans but always seizes an opportunity when it presents itself.  His only weakness seems to be Catelyn and then Sansa.

He NEVER marries - why not - he has become rich and their would be girls of reasonable birth and good looking a plenty for him now. However he does not marry until AFTER Catelyn is dead.  Then at the first chance he shoves his wife out the moon door and starts chasing Sansa.

WTF are you talking about? The entire reason Bran was in a coma in the first place was because Bran witnessed the twincest and Jaime tried to kill him.

[Lord Wraith]

3 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Yerba mate! So decadent, so satisfying.

Well, the idea came to me because in Westeros, Lord Varys' little birds are everywhere. Everywhere.

So as I pondered the question, it seemed to me that foggy and accessible Braavos would be the ideal place to set up such a meeting.

Accessible to one such as Mance, as well as to one such as Lord Baelish.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Forget it guys --

Joffrey did it.

The incriminating (un)familiarity with Valyrian steel  and that quintessential GRRM ellipsis...

DOT DOT DOT

And the rest is history...

 

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Please stop Wraith. We all know you aren't a psychopath!

 

1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

He NEVER marries - why not - he has become rich and their would be girls of reasonable birth and good looking a plenty for him now. However he does not marry until AFTER Catelyn is dead.  Then at the first chance he shoves his wife out the moon door and starts chasing Sansa.

Mainly because who would want to marry him? His mind, his devilish good looks? Lord of Westeros carry nothing for such things. He has a shit castle and shit lands, thus is a shit marriage proposal.  Granted he has now lots of money, and with Harrenhal a big ass castle and vast tracts of land. Not to being the LP of the Riverlands. Basically the most desirable bachelor in Westeros now. The irony.

1 hour ago, SeaWitch said:

He can't marry whilst he wants to keep Lysa's favour. If he did, I expect his wife would have an Amy Robsart style accident fairly swiftly.  

Fun fact I think he has been getting Lysa to poison herself with Sweetsleep for awhile now. I don't think he planned the whole kissing in the snow seen for Lysa. (Some do but who do they think he is Bloodraven?) He needed her for a couple more years preferably. 

Also would explain Sweetrobins insane resistance to Sweetsleep, since he keeps breastfeeding for so long. Granted the poison might not work like that but this is a fantasy series with Ice zombies and fire dragons.