cersie's psyche

[Wolfgirly]

As a kid, Cersei always wanted to marry the handsome prince Rhaegar. However, the mad king said "no" to the proposal. But did the mad king say "yes" to the proposal of Elia and his son? He didn't sound very fond of Elia, according to some sources.I've only read the first two books so far. Cersei ended up with Robert, the killer of Rhaegar, and she went onto have children with her brother Jaime. 

What I get about her is power hungry. She comes across as gentle but really isn't.

[Traverys]

33 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

She murdered her friend Melara.

 

Quote

 

Conduct Disorder

A. A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of at least three of the following 15 criteria in the past 12 months from any of the categories below, with at least one criterion present in the past 6 months:

Aggression to People and Animals

1. Often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others.
2. Often initiates physical fights.
3. Has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun).
4. Has been physically cruel to people.
5. Has been physically cruel to animals.
6. Has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery).
7. Has forced someone into sexual activity.

Destruction of Property

1. Has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage.
2. Has deliberately destroyed others’ property (other than by fire setting).

Deceitfulness or Theft

1. Has broken into someone else’s house, building, or car.
2. Often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others).
3. Has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering: forgery).

Serious Violations of Rules

1. Often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years.
2. Has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in the parental or parental surrogate home, or once without returning for a lengthy period.
3. Is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years.

B. The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
C. If the individual is age 18 years or older, criteria are not met for antisocial personality disorder.

 

Note the qualification of societal norms. At max, you can only accuse her of two things based on what we know about her childhood: bullies/intimidates others and has been physically cruel to people. However, kids with Conduct Disorder are physically aggressive themselves as they don't have the inhibition or boundaries to hold themselves back. Back in the training clinic we would joke that anyone who was seeing a kid for CD needed to wear pads because you couldn't leave them alone in the room and you couldn't restrain them.

Conduct disorder is more descriptive of someone like Joffrey.

Interestingly, you could also accuse Daenerys of this based on criteria alone, but because the societal norms are not aligned with American norms there's just no way that it would stick. But "Has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage" made me laugh in regards to dracarys.

 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Borderline/Narcissistic narrowly missing out on Antisocial Personality.

You'd have to do a differential diagnosis instead of using both.

From the DSM-5:

Quote

 

Other personality disorders may be confused with antisocial personality disorder because they have certain features in common. It is therefore important to distinguish among these disorders based on differences in their characteristic features. Individuals with antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder share a tendency to be tough-minded, glib, superficial, exploitative, and lack empathy. However, narcissistic personality disorder does not include characteristics of impulsivity, aggression, and deceit. In addition, individuals with antisocial personality disorder may not be as needy of the admiration and envy of others, and persons with narcissistic personality disorder usually lack the history of conduct disorder in childhood or criminalbehavior in adulthood.

 

 

[ravenous reader]

6 hours ago, Traverys said:

You'd have to do a differential diagnosis instead of using both.

We can't do that because we can't interview fictional characters.    So it's a moot point!

Also, the spectrum is more fluid than would appear.

[snow is the man]

I'm not an expert but this is my take on her.
 

She truly loves her children because they are "hers" joffrey who was the most like her was her favorite. Toomen she likes and loves but not nearly as much.

She loves jaime like someone said like a shiny toy. She seems to love him because he looks like a male version of her. She is extremly narccesitic and while she never personally tortures someone I think she is a sadist given how she loves to cause people she doesn't like to suffer. She has an extreme case of paranoia not just with tyrion but with pretty much everyone except jaime and that is because she believs she owns him. She loves power and little else.

[foxberlin]

4 hours ago, Traverys said:

I wouldn't call either of the women crazy.

[snap]

 

Thanks for your post. You've shown the narrow ground between culturally encouraged traits and an individual illness in Cersei's character. I support your view, especially your reluctance to call someone "crazy".

 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

She murdered her friend Melara.

I still don't get how people can be so sure about that.

[Traverys]

6 minutes ago, foxberlin said:

Thanks for your post. You've shown the narrow ground between culturally encouraged traits and an individual illness in Cersei's character. I support your view, especially your reluctance to call someone "crazy".

 

I still don't get how people can be so sure about that.

Thanks. It's more apparent in the conduct disorder criteria how much standardized criteria are embedded in our culture. "Has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)" is almost an everyday occurrence for anyone in the setting.

[Helikzhan]

Narcissism comes in two flavors. If you look at the way aristocratic people think it becomes clear. 

 

First way is an obvious sense of superiority in their customs and identity that they exude in the presence of those they feel are inferior. Cersei is a good first example. 

 

Second way is less obvious. The second sort project their superiority through others. The Queen of Thorns is a good example here. The Tyrells attempted to beat the Lannisters through winning over the people. Cersei's fool was to try and win over the faith militant as a direct response to the Tyrell tactic. 

 

Both examples are extremely narcissistic but they illustrate it in different ways. 

 

My own summation of Cersei is that she was a product of her house and her exposure to the world. The prophecy did its part in shaping her and I suspect one of the reasons she bed Jamie was to avoid the prophecy not realizing she played right into it. Really everything she's done to avoid the prophecy has only progressed it. It's a cautionary tale of prophecies and how the world shapes a person. 

[PCK]

Narcissistic, prideful, arrogant, and cruel.

[The Sunland Lord]

It's hard do judge her by modern medical standards.

She's a narcissist that's for sure. 

[Cas Stark]

Oh I don't know, I think she is pretty textbook for a personality disorder.  

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

Adult Cersei qualifies for Conduct Disorder with the Deceitfulness category, as well as setting fire to shit (tower of the hand). Except that she's not under 18 (physically). 

Also, it's important to note that having an extreme case of affluenza doesn't change the clearly disordered behaviour, it only lessens the consequences. 

To flip a Nirvana quote: just because they're after you, don't mean you're not paranoid. 

She's a textbook candidate for the non-DSM disorder (and possibly not a real thing) of malignant narcissism. Which made news recently... Speaking of political figures who have affluenza and are textbook narcissists. 

Also, George has this notion that he can humanise characters who are irredemably evil. The driving notion being the so-called wisdom that, "An enemy is only someone whose story we weren't willing to hear," or some such bullshit. (I mean, this is true in so many cases, especially on the one-on-one level; I am a firm believer in practicioners of the mental arts and their ability to help people.) But this is not universally true! There are lots of people whose confluence of mental illness, bad choices, and power make them so dangerous that we can acknowledge their contributing factors and also unsympathetically extirpate them from... well, life. While also condemning the abusers who made the monsters and set them loose on an innocent public. 

Cersei is a great example of the brutal subjugation of women, being marginalised, stripped of agency, and commodified. She is right to push back. Except that she's hollow, unrepentant, and malicious, so the way she pushes is just plain evil. No excuses. 

[HoodedCrow]

The DSM, (the diagnostic and statistical manual), lists, organizes and describes psychological categories and various other contributing factors. Some categories are firmer than others. Some diagnoses are very squishy, but they enable discussion and observation. Most of the squishy diagnoses are made from various criteria, which can be made from  very rough decisions based on the observer so that the majority fulfill the requirements  It could something like 5 out of 8 criteria are"met". Also, the diagnoses overlap and are not subject to absolute consistency. There are statistics and studies used and clusters of descriptors. As well, people change over years and even hours, depending on many factors. Abnormal diagnoses are added or even dropped.

Personality diagnoses are vague and debatable and in some ways, I would count on a very good psychologist(and half of them graduated at the bottom of their class or have their own agenda), or a very empathic writer to describe a personality type in a realistic way. GRRM is not a psychologist, and yet I think he's got a very chilling narcissistic character in Cersei, with a lot of motivation and detail. I think he probably reverse engineered many of his characters by taking real historical information about people like Margaret of Anjou, and fleshing them out with some twists and combinations. 

So, a skilled and empathetic writer who has an understanding of character and is a keen observer of history can simulate a more realistic person ( he has complete access to their motivations, decisions, actions, and thoughts in a way) than an unempatheric psychologist.

[Traverys]

2 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

The DSM, (the diagnostic and statistical manual), lists, organizes and describes psychological categories and various other contributing factors. Some categories are firmer than others. Some diagnoses are very squishy, but they enable discussion and observation. Most of the squishy diagnoses are made from various criteria, which can be made from  very rough decisions based on the observer so that the majority fulfill the requirements  It could something like 5 out of 8 criteria are"m

ould count on a very good psychologist(and half of them graduated at the bottom of their class or have their own agenda), or a very empathic writer to describe a personality type in a realistic way. GRRM is not a psychologist, and yet I think he's got a very chilling narcissistic character in Cersei, with a lot of motivation and detail. I think he probably reverse engineered many of his characters by taking real historical information about people like Margaret of Anjou, and fleshing them out with some twists and combinations. 

So, a skilled and empathetic writer who has an understanding of character and is a keen observer of history can simulate a more realistic person ( he has complete access to their motivations, decisions, actions, and thoughts in a way) than an unempatheric psychologist.

But you have to consider the relativity of culture as well. The DSM is based on cultural and economical norms of American society. She wasn't acting antisocially or against the laws when she burned down the tower. It's in her rights as Queen Reagent to do that kind of thing if she wants. Like I said before, Daenerys meets the criteria for Conduct Disorder according to the DSM-5 but that's just kind of silly to even consider. She's used weapons (whip to the face of the Wise Master), set things on fire in order to damage, etc.

People also need to realize that the DSM is not some golden standard... the only reason it's become standard in any way is (1) insurance billing, (2) continuity for research/clinical trials, and (3) professional ethics. Not to mention that it's published by the American Psychiatric Association, meaning that they utilize a physician model and have a bad habit of focusing on symptoms treatable by medication.

Furthermore, actual practitioners are hardly ever satisfied with the manual's criteria for the areas in which they specialize. For example, the newest manual has combined Autism Spectrum Disorder with Asperger's, meaning there is now no such thing as Asperger's as far as the clinical world is concerned. Imagine how unhappy you'd be if your child with high functioning Autism (as in they can go to college) is now grouped together with low functioning autism in regards to public school services (which often is administered in groups).

My point: the DSM is arbitrary. You have to go to the operational definition or theory behind these disorders when you try to apply them to anything outside of the context of modern America.

[HoodedCrow]

Travers, well said.

I understand why the spectrum disorders were combined, but it isn't a great call. One day it will be down to groups of genetic markers, but not yet.

Cersei does seem like a classic narcissist, maybe sociopathic with paranoid tendencies, alchholism, and a lot of death and abuse to cope with.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

1 hour ago, Traverys said:

But you have to consider the relativity of culture as well. The DSM is based on cultural and economical norms of American society. She wasn't acting antisocially or against the laws when she burned down the tower. It's in her rights as Queen Reagent to do that kind of thing if she wants. Like I said before, Daenerys meets the criteria for Conduct Disorder according to the DSM-5 but that's just kind of silly to even consider. She's used weapons (whip to the face of the Wise Master), set things on fire in order to damage, etc.

I have to disagree with some of this piece. Otherwise a great post! And I am not saying that levels of violence or other indicators aren't culturally relative. They are. Context always matters. 

But there are countless in-story and historical examples of kings and queens doing extremely fucked up shit that was completely "in their rights." I am talking about people who are obviously mentally ill, doing super disordered things. Joffrey? Never broke the law. Aerys? Within his rights. Maegor the Cruel? Can burn down whatever the fuck he wants to. But these people were crazytown bananapants. (Yeah yeah, I know. It was a joke.)  

As I was alluding to earlier, just because you're in a position where you are shielded from consequences, does NOT mean that your behaviour isn't disordered. 

[HoodedCrow]

It's helpful, book wise, to recall the reactions of other characters to what they are doing.

Barriston Selmy does not think Dany is mad. Her thought don't seem disordered. Whereas, a lot of people think Mad King Aerys was crazy town bananapants. 

Cersei's thoughts seem very off, emotional, and blind to long term consequences and empathy. Her actions are way off the cultural norms. Her brother/lover is eventually turned away by what she is doing. She is also coping with the suppression and restrictions of the society that might have cultivated her strengths had she been male. Still, I think she has signs of having a more genetically based sociopathy.

[SeanF]

Cersei is very frightened, paranoid, filled with anger and bitterness, riddled with guilt, sees slights where none are intended, and thinks the whole world is out to get her and her children. And she thinks she and her family are doomed by the prophecy she heard when she was ten.

[HoodedCrow]

Sean, she seems frightened, bitter, easily offended, murderous, and paranoid. I'm not sure she feels guilty, and that is a question. If she feels some light guilt (and I don't think there is much evidence for that) then she might be more narcissistic, and if she feels none with no empathy, then she is more sociopathic.

On the other hand, Robert did quite a lot to grievously offend even a loving spouse.

Cersei has been playing quite a dangerous game with Robert, Jaime, Arron, the Septons, the Kettleblacks, Lancel, Tywin, The Tyrells, the Kingsguard, and Ned. She knows that you win or die, and doesn't realize that she is getting "help"from Varys and why.

There are a lot of dangerous people who would kill her and her children if they figured it all out, or even to win their own game, so some of the paranoia is justified.

Someone wanted to float Margaery in front of Robert in order to replace her. Nice.

[Renly's Banana]

On 5/23/2017 at 3:01 AM, foxberlin said:

Being wed to someone for about 15 years, who proudly killed your crush that you had since you were six.

Meh, I actually think Rhaegar's death had very little impact on Cersei overall. Yes she had a girl crush on him growing up, but there's nothing to indicate this profoundly affected her or scarred her. In fact she even tells us herself she was over the moon when Tywin betrothed her to Robert, so her "mourning" seems to have been pretty short-lived. She loved the title of Queen more than she loved Rhaegar. 

I don't think Cersei suffers from any sort of mental illness, tbh. Maybe a touch of sociopathy, but so do half the characters. Like others have said, she's just a very narcissistic and shallow person who's not very smart and becomes paranoid over time.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 5/23/2017 at 1:55 AM, ravenous reader said:

Borderline/Narcissistic narrowly missing out on Antisocial Personality.

Why not all 3? Nothing in BPD or NPD accounts for murdering your best friend.