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cersie's psyche


Graydon Hicks

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when i look at her behavior, it almost like she doesnt love anything beyond herself, that all those people with a connection are looked at as possessions. she doesnt see her children as her children, they are her children. she hates having them form attachments to anyone other than her, cause it means she has to share.

with jaime, hes like a favorite shiny toy, the moment he lost his hand, he he became a broken toy, and no longer fun to play with. actually in the case of that relationship, its interesting how it actually works. for one, i think she is the one that seduced him in the first place. and have you ever noticed how he seems to change whenever hes away from her? i think he puts on the arrogant asshole semblance cause she wants it, it turns her on. that might be what had first attracted her to robert, maybe even to rhaegar, the cocky arrogance, the confidence in power. hell, power might be the biggest attraction to her of all.

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23 minutes ago, Graydon Hicks said:

when i look at her behavior, it almost like she doesnt love anything beyond herself, that all those people with a connection are looked at as possessions. she doesnt see her children as her children, they are her children. she hates having them form attachments to anyone other than her, cause it means she has to share.

This is typical of a narcissist, whereby other people are but extensions of the ego (do you have any background in psychology?).

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with jaime, hes like a favorite shiny toy, the moment he lost his hand, he he became a broken toy, and no longer fun to play with. actually in the case of that relationship, its interesting how it actually works. for one, i think she is the one that seduced him in the first place.

Couldn't agree more.  Symbolically, Jaime was born clinging to her ankle.  His is the more interesting 'arc'.

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and have you ever noticed how he seems to change whenever hes away from her? i think he puts on the arrogant asshole semblance cause she wants it, it turns her on. that might be what had first attracted her to robert, maybe even to rhaegar, the cocky arrogance, the confidence in power. hell, power might be the biggest attraction to her of all.

So true.

It's about power.  And underneath it all, she's but a quivering egg yolk, awaiting the valonqar to provide the liberating crack.

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no background in pych, wish i could have taken it in school, it and philosophy. i am a bit of an amateur  theoretical meta-physicist. and i love taking fictional characters and breaking down their psychologies. you should hear my analysis of harry potter, the character. 

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Victim psychology sheds an interesting light on Cersei. There's actually a lot of rejection in her POV and not just from Tywin which really makes me wonder how she'll handle Jaime leaving.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-victim-psychology.htm

 

Victim psychology is a frequently heard term in modern discussions of mental health. The term generally refers not to a person who is the victim of a terrible act, such as a natural disaster, but rather to someone who avoids personal responsibility or bad feelings by blaming others. Many therapists and mental health professionals see victim psychology as a destructive mechanism that can inhibit personal relationships and a happy life.

The psychological journey of a person prone to victimized thinking is complex, and may begin in early childhood. Some people who have abusive or highly critical parents develop strong feelings of shame and guilt in early life. If these problems are not dealt with and managed, it is easy for them to be carried into adulthood and manifest as a victim psychology; rather than deal with the shame or guilt that reminds them of past trauma, a person thinking like a victim will blame others for the situation.

[Cersei felt like she was treated as second-class and inferior because she was a woman, but refuses to acknowledge that it was her personality which was the problem. She also felt rejected for not being good enough for Rhaegar when a Targ/Lannister match was extremely important to Tywin. Robert later rejected her for Lyanna.]

A person displaying victim psychology may be obsessed with fairness or morality. Generally, he or she believes that good things that occur are deserved, and bad things that occur are because someone else is being cruel, thoughtless, or unfair. It is difficult for a person with victim mentality to take responsibility for his or her part in a problem, because that may leave him or her vulnerable to the painful feelings of shame, guilt, or fear of rejection for being wrong. While the behavior of a person with victim mentality may seem illogically selfish or narcissistic, it is important to bear in mind that it is actually an unfortunate and often unhealthy reaction to traumatic pain, not necessarily an inherent arrogance.

[She’s obsessed with fairness and morality when it comes to herself, but has no concept of it for others. I do think it’s an inherent arrogance in Cersei’s case as she exhibited these traits as a young child]

Like a deer in the headlights, victim psychology can paralyze a person and prevent him or her from making logical decisions. Being so caught up in how unfair a situation is, a person may be unable to think of ways or actions that could solve the problem. Instead of determining how to fix an issue, arguments or problems can quickly dissolve into accusations of blame, which is generally helpful to no one.

[The solution to every problem, especially challenging ones, is wine or murder]

Dysfunctional relationships can cause a tendency toward victim psychology, even without an early trauma of affections. A person in a relationship with an alcoholic partner has a legitimate complaint against the addiction, yet may instead begin to use the addiction as a means of justifying his or her own passivity or actions. For instance, if the spouse of an addict began having affairs and blaming them on his or her partner's refusal to stay clean, this is an example of victim psychology. Even in a situation where there is a legitimate complaint, a person is responsible for his or her own actions.

Therapy for a person caught in victim psychology can take many forms. Generally, the person must confront the underlying feelings of shame, guilt, and poor self-esteem in order to recognize the problem. The work then becomes in learning to accept responsibility for personal actions and feelings, and channeling efforts into taking action rather than assigning blame.

 

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8 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Victim psychology sheds an interesting light on Cersei. There's actually a lot of rejection in her POV and not just from Tywin which really makes me wonder how she'll handle Jaime leaving.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-victim-psychology.htm

 

 

 

Victim psychology is a frequently heard term in modern discussions of mental health. The term generally refers not to a person who is the victim of a terrible act, such as a natural disaster, but rather to someone who avoids personal responsibility or bad feelings by blaming others. Many therapists and mental health professionals see victim psychology as a destructive mechanism that can inhibit personal relationships and a happy life.

 

The psychological journey of a person prone to victimized thinking is complex, and may begin in early childhood. Some people who have abusive or highly critical parents develop strong feelings of shame and guilt in early life. If these problems are not dealt with and managed, it is easy for them to be carried into adulthood and manifest as a victim psychology; rather than deal with the shame or guilt that reminds them of past trauma, a person thinking like a victim will blame others for the situation.

 

[Cersei felt like she was treated as second-class and inferior because she was a woman, but refuses to acknowledge that it was her personality which was the problem. She also felt rejected for not being good enough for Rhaegar when a Targ/Lannister match was extremely important to Tywin. Robert later rejected her for Lyanna.]

 

A person displaying victim psychology may be obsessed with fairness or morality. Generally, he or she believes that good things that occur are deserved, and bad things that occur are because someone else is being cruel, thoughtless, or unfair. It is difficult for a person with victim mentality to take responsibility for his or her part in a problem, because that may leave him or her vulnerable to the painful feelings of shame, guilt, or fear of rejection for being wrong. While the behavior of a person with victim mentality may seem illogically selfish or narcissistic, it is important to bear in mind that it is actually an unfortunate and often unhealthy reaction to traumatic pain, not necessarily an inherent arrogance.

 

[She’s obsessed with fairness and morality when it comes to herself, but has no concept of it for others. I do think it’s an inherent arrogance in Cersei’s case as she exhibited these traits as a young child]

 

Like a deer in the headlights, victim psychology can paralyze a person and prevent him or her from making logical decisions. Being so caught up in how unfair a situation is, a person may be unable to think of ways or actions that could solve the problem. Instead of determining how to fix an issue, arguments or problems can quickly dissolve into accusations of blame, which is generally helpful to no one.

 

[The solution to every problem, especially challenging ones, is wine or murder]

 

Dysfunctional relationships can cause a tendency toward victim psychology, even without an early trauma of affections. A person in a relationship with an alcoholic partner has a legitimate complaint against the addiction, yet may instead begin to use the addiction as a means of justifying his or her own passivity or actions. For instance, if the spouse of an addict began having affairs and blaming them on his or her partner's refusal to stay clean, this is an example of victim psychology. Even in a situation where there is a legitimate complaint, a person is responsible for his or her own actions.

 

Therapy for a person caught in victim psychology can take many forms. Generally, the person must confront the underlying feelings of shame, guilt, and poor self-esteem in order to recognize the problem. The work then becomes in learning to accept responsibility for personal actions and feelings, and channeling efforts into taking action rather than assigning blame.

 

 

 

My heart bleeds for Cersei.

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now, i think a lot of that arrogance is inherent, from her being a lannister. not just a lannister, but a lannister of the main line of casterly rock. you've seen how all the banners in the royal party, and at kingslanding, even when robert lived, showed the lannister lion just as prominently as the baratheon stag, when she had married into his family, and it was the current royal house. so lannisters have pride out the ass. she also inherited, of all her siblings, tywin's personality, his ambition, his ruthlessness, his pragmatism. but she's not as intellegent or subtle as her father, so when she plays the Game of thrones, shes not as good at it as he is. she thinks her much smarter than she really is, so she makes great plays and moves that she likely thinks of as masterful, but they do tend to be horribly obvious. such attempts showcase, at least to tywin, her incompetence. and as that incompetence is public, at least to those who actually play the game with skill, like tywin or olenna tyrell, they are an embarrassment to tywin and house lannister. thats why he doesnt so much respect for her. if there are two things tywin hates most in the world, its incompetence and embarrassment to the house.

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Just now, ravenous reader said:

My heart bleeds for Cersei.

I've met some people with victim psychology that I can sympathize with, but add certain ingredients to it and you have someone pretty monstrous on your hands.

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1 hour ago, Graydon Hicks said:

i wish to start a topic on the psychology on cersie. i know she's not as crazy as lysa, but her attachment to her children, dismissal of her family beyond them, i feel needs a closer look.

I wouldn't call either of the women crazy.

For Cersei, it would probably be beneficial to read some literature on clinical narcissism (narcissistic personal disorder, specifically). She doesn't fit the diagnosis completely, and GRRM obviously isn't a trained clinician. A general definition would be a consistent, long-term pattern of:

  1. Exaggerated/inflated feelings of self-importance (grandiosity)
  2. Excessive need for praise, admiration, and/or attention
  3. Inability to understand the feelings of others (empathy). This often leads to them taking advantage of those around them in order to meet their needs.
  4. Unfortunately, they also don't see how this is a problem (thus, in modern times, therapy is rarely ever effective)

Grandiosity

Tricky to accuse Cersei of grandiosity at first blush because this is how the highborn are in regards to their House. It's a culturally encouraged trait. However, apply this sense of grandiosity to her perceptions about her own cunning and abilities as a reagent and it becomes very apparent she has delusions of grandeur.

Need for Admiration/Narcissistic Supply

Another instance where highborn families encourage a somewhat negative trait. Though Lannisters are exceptionally prone to flashing their name, pride, and beauty in excess, you can't really say they are the only house that does this.

Something to understand about narcissists is that they have what some term a "Narcissistic Supply," which is the source(s) where they get the praise and/or attention that they need. Attention/praise/admiration for a narcissist is what alcohol is to an alcoholic. In Cersei's case, she already has natural sources of supply. She is a Lannister, she is beautiful, she is rich, she has exquisite clothes and jewelry, she is Queen, her children are royalty, her twin and her father are as famous as she is, and the list goes on. Any minor slight or hindrance to the income of this supply of attention will be taken as a huge slight and the narcissist will go on a rampage for disproportionate retribution. Sound like anyone we know?

Specific to Cersei are the relationship she has with her brother, her children, and her father. A narcissist typically views people that live up to their image of themselves as extensions of themselves, meaning that the qualities that these people possess are also possessed by the narcissist (more on this below when I discuss Jaime and Tywin). In the grand play of a narcissists life, their family are either cast as the golden child/parent/sibling (think Joffrey) or a form of a scapegoat/black sheep, with the only criteria being they either provide supply or they don't. Imagine if Cersei had a child that had something other than blonde hair! Beyond the prophecy of the volonqar, it's no wonder Tyrion is so despised by her. A maimed, ugly, stunted dwarf with mismatched eyes is the antithesis of Lannister and provides her with no supply.

Special note can go to her relationship with her brother. Having sex with your twin is already a narcissistic act, whether the person is a true narcissist or not. However, the whole realm knows how close Cersei is to Jaime; they are two peas in a pod. All his good looks, wit, and martial prowess are known across the realm, and by claiming him as hers all of these qualities that are praised (supply) by others transfer to her as well. In fact, she already thinks she is an excellent warrior and is just forbidden to have a sword. It's no wonder how she comes to reject Jaime upon his return to KL after he has been maimed; he is now disfigured and has lost all his martial prowess. What good is he to her now that he can't fuel her addiction?

Another special note goes to her father. Tywin has a reputation of his own that she takes great pride (supply) in. As with Jaime, she believes all of Tywin's qualities are also her qualities (fueling her grandiosity). Even others acknowledge that she thinks she is Tywin with teats, though we all see that this is far from the truth. When her father dies, she doesn't even notice the dead whore in his bed until someone asks what they should do with her body. With her father gone, she's had to try and work even harder to match his qualities because she craves that supply her father commanded of the realm. It would explain why her time as reagent for Tommen is disastrously worse than it was when she ruled in Joffrey's name: she wants that praise back and she is rampaging until she gets it.

Empathy (or lack thereof)

I don't think I really need to go deep into this concept. She clearly has no sense of others' feelings and hardly cares to learn. This even goes for her own twin, who she quickly rejects once his image as a beautiful swordsman is damaged beyond repair. However, I think it puts some of the things she has done in a new light when you realize she can't see things from their perspective. For example, the women she has given to Qyburn all either damaged her supply (her handmaid) or threatened to (Stokeworth). The woman in Casterly Rock that Robert slept and fathered bastards with also tarnished this supply, and she acted accordingly. This is not to excuse her behavior, but mix this addiction for positive attention with her father's methods and... well, you get exactly what she ends up doing in all of these cases and more. It makes you question this idea that she is an evil person rather than just someone who does evil things (yes, there is a difference).

Anyways, I personally find Cersei to be one of the top 3 fascinating characters of the series. Her complexity, snark, rage, and callousness makes for an interesting character. I could write pages focusing on different aspects about her, but I figured that a deep analysis of her narcissism was least likely to be discussed by someone else.

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3 minutes ago, Graydon Hicks said:

now, i think a lot of that arrogance is inherent, from her being a lannister. not just a lannister, but a lannister of the main line of casterly rock. you've seen how all the banners in the royal party, and at kingslanding, even when robert lived, showed the lannister lion just as prominently as the baratheon stag, when she had married into his family, and it was the current royal house. so lannisters have pride out the ass. she also inherited, of all her siblings, tywin's personality, his ambition, his ruthlessness, his pragmatism. but she's not as intellegent or subtle as her father, so when she plays the Game of thrones, shes not as good at it as he is. she thinks her much smarter than she really is, so she makes great plays and moves that she likely thinks of as masterful, but they do tend to be horribly obvious. such attempts showcase, at least to tywin, her incompetence. and as that incompetence is public, at least to those who actually play the game with skill, like tywin or olenna tyrell, they are an embarrassment to tywin and house lannister. thats why he doesnt so much respect for her. if there are two things tywin hates most in the world, its incompetence and embarrassment to the house.

I know.  It's all very lamentable.  She's 'just a clumsy narcissist'  instead of an exquisitely sophisticated psychopath -- it seems the gene pool was only partially distributed, poor thing.  

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9 minutes ago, Traverys said:

I wouldn't call either of the women crazy.

For Cersei, it would probably be beneficial to read some literature on clinical narcissism (narcissistic personal disorder, specifically). She doesn't fit the diagnosis completely, and GRRM obviously isn't a trained clinician. A general definition would be a consistent, long-term pattern of:

  1. Exaggerated/inflated feelings of self-importance (grandiosity)
  2. Excessive need for praise, admiration, and/or attention
  3. Inability to understand the feelings of others (empathy). This often leads to them taking advantage of those around them in order to meet their needs.
  4. Unfortunately, they also don't see how this is a problem (thus, in modern times, therapy is rarely ever effective

Grandiosity

Tricky to accuse Cersei of grandiosity at first blush because this is how the highborn are in regards to their House. It's a culturally encouraged trait. However, apply this sense of grandiosity to her perceptions about her own cunning and abilities as a reagent and it becomes very apparent she has delusions of grandeur.

Need for Admiration/Narcissistic Supply

Another instance where highborn families encourage their progeny to hold themselves above others in order to command admiration and envy. Though Lannisters are exceptionally prone to flashing their name, pride, and beauty in excess, you can't really say they are the only house that does this.

Something to understand about narcissists is that they have what some term a "Narcissistic Supply," which is the source(s) where they get the praise and/or attention that they need. Attention/praise/admiration for a narcissist is what alcohol is to an alcoholic. In Cersei's case, she already has natural sources of supply. She is a Lannister, she is beautiful, she is rich, she has exquisite clothes and jewelry, she is Queen, her children are royalty, her twin and her father are as famous as she is, and the list goes on. Any minor slight or hindrance to the income of this supply of attention will be taken as a huge slight and the narcissist will go on a rampage for retribution. Sound like anyone we know?

Specific to Cersei are the relationship she has with her brother, her children, and her father. A narcissist typically views people that live up to their image of themselves as extensions of themselves, meaning that the qualities that these people possess are also possessed by the narcissist (more on this below when I discuss Jaime and Tywin). In the grand play of a narcissists life, their family are either cast as the golden child/parent/sibling (think Joffrey) or a form of a scapegoat/black sheep, with the only criteria being they either provide supply or they don't. Imagine if Cersei had a child that had something other than blonde hair! Beyond the prophecy of the volonqar, it's no wonder Tyrion is so despised by her. A maimed, ugly, stunted dwarf with mismatched eyes is the antithesis of Lannister and provides her with no supply.

Special note can go to her relationship with her brother. Having sex with your twin is already a narcissistic act, whether the person is a true narcissist or not. However, the whole realm knows how close Cersei is to Jaime; they are two peas in a pod. All his good looks, wit, and martial prowess are known across the realm, and by claiming him as hers all of these qualities that are praised (supply) by others transfer to her as well. In fact, she already thinks she is an excellent warrior and is just forbidden to have a sword. It's no wonder how she comes to reject Jaime upon his return to KL after he has been maimed; he is now disfigured and has lost all his martial prowess. What good is he to her now that he can't fuel her addiction?

Another (brief) special note goes to her father. Tywin has a reputation of his own that she takes great pride (supply) in. As with Jaime, she believes all of Tywin's qualities are also her qualities (fueling her grandiosity). Even others acknowledge that she thinks she is Tywin with teats, though we all see that this is far from the truth. When her father dies, she doesn't even notice the dead whore in his bed until someone asks what they should do with her body. With her father gone, she's had to try and work even harder to match his qualities because she craves that supplyi her father commanded of the realm. It would explain why her time as reagent for Tommen is disastrously worse than it was when she ruled in Joffrey's name: she wants that praise back and she is rampaging until she gets it.

Empathy (or lack thereof)

I don't think I really need to go deep into this concept. She clearly has no sense of others' feelings and hardly cares to learn. This even goes for her own twin, who she quickly rejects once his image as a beautiful swordsman is damaged beyond repair. However, I think it puts some of the things she has done in a new light when you realize she can't see things from their perspective. For example, the women she has given to Qyburn all either damaged her supply (her handmaid) or threatened to (Stokeworth). The woman in Casterly Rock Robert slept and fathered bastards with also tarnished this supply, and she acted accordingly. This is not to excuse her behavior, but mix this addiction for positive attention with her father's methods and it makes you question this idea that she is an evil person rather than just someone who does evil things (yes, there is a difference).

Anyways, I personally find Cersei to be one of the top 3 fascinating characters of the series. Her complexity, snark, rage, and callousness makes for an interesting character. I could write pages focusing on different aspects about her, but I figured that a deep analysis of her narcissism was least likely to be discussed by someone else.

Thank you for your blurb which I haven't bothered reading (just as you haven't bothered reading my 'Killing Word' thread :P).

So, let's cut to the chase and attack the DSM criteria:

 

A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following: having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.  YES

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest. YES

2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.  YES

 3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.YES

4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults. YES

5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others. YES

6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations. YES

7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing. YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES 

Do we really need to proceed to criterion B?

 

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23 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Thank you for your blurb which I haven't bothered reading (just as you haven't bothered reading my 'Killing Word' thread :P).

So, let's cut to the chase and attack the DSM criteria:

 

A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following: having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.  YES

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest. YES

2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.  YES

 3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.YES

4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults. YES

5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others. YES

6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations. YES

7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing. YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES 

  1. Do we really need to proceed to criterion B?

 

  1. You having such a charmingly abrasive way of making people not want to do things. :thumbsup:
  2. You're using the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder from an outdated version of the DSM (DSM-IV-TR, specifically) that's used to diagnose people in America.
  3. Yes, you would need to proceed to B so you could get to C, which is vital to a diagnosis if you insist on this route. The whole premise of an adult personality disorder is that there were signs starting in early childhood. Conduct disorder is a childhood disorder and APD is the adult version of it.
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5 minutes ago, Traverys said:

You're using the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder from an outdated version of the DSM (DSM-IV-TR, specifically) that's used to diagnose people in America.

Well -- with the DSM V it's bound to be so much easier!

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